Wormwood is a much better challenge character than Wes

[Cheggf]

Someone has succeeded in getting an entire page of engagement by doing nothing more than repeating himself over and over again. Despite the Klei forums having a great block function it's apparently the easiest place to troll, I've never once seen one get ignored.

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Cannoli said:

Exactly.

And, as (almost) nobody is satisfied playing Wes, nobody plays Wes! 

There is no reward, then there is no challenge.

If nobody accepts the challenge (because there is no reward), then there is no challenge at all. (That was my first message).

This is so obvious.... I would like end by now. Who understood, understood. Who don't, can continue keep thinking challenges don't have reward and Wes is a challenge even nobody accepts. Tks if nobody quote me again. 

Except people do enjoy playing Wes.  Maybe *you* don't, but others do.

I have heard people say that Wormwood is the better challenge character, and as I said before - if you're playing to boss rush I can agree.  His limited healing adds a nice challenge to bosses.  However that's where it ends.  Wes is far superior as a challenge character for actually playing DST, and is not without challenge in boss rushes.  Yes some things are tedious and just add time to your play, not challenge - but the challenging parts are still there (and there is challenge in tedium, prioritization and focus)

Besides limited healing Wormwood brings absolutely nothing to "challenge" you, the rest of his perks are pretty solid.

Challenge characters are often under played, that's the nature of them though.  People play them when they want a challenge, but not to play normally.  I don't think we can rate Wes's success as a character in whether he is a popular pick, due to his nature he should never be a popular pick - but is he a popular character - as in, do people like him?  Do people recognize that when a person does something amazing with Wes that it was 100% due to the player's ability and not due to Wes advantages?  That's what ultimately makes a challenge character and why they don't need to provide give any mechanical advantages even when played perfectly.

[JoeW]

A few things to note here. 

1 - Remember, a significant portion of this forum does not speak English as their first language. Sometimes tone can be misinterpreted, both ways. 

2 - You don't have to engage with somebody if you don't like what they post. Sometimes the most constructive way to deal with somebody you find abrasive is to ignore them entirely.

3 - Intrinsic vs Extrinsic rewards is something we covered because largely like somebody pointed out earlier, often times games do not do things this way. https://support.klei.com/hc/en-us/articles/360035456011-Intrinsic-vs-Extrinsic-rewards

4 - I invite everybody to go back and read some of the above posts. Remove what you think their tone is and read it again with the understanding they may not have the same control of the language that you do. 

5 - While I agree that the tone may be abrasive at times, consider the above and ask how you would be posting under similar circumstances. 

6 - If you can't do that - the ignore function is here: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/ignore/

With that being said - this goes to both sides of this sort of argument. You all are on a video game forum. These forums have been getting really spicy lately and I am feeling like it's because everybody is so tired of the rest of the world right now. Let's keep this place a fun place. Thanks. 

[Waynel]

Wormwood, decent

Wes, slow

Just because you can’t spam perogies/blue caps doesn’t mean ww is hard

[goblinball]

On 3/20/2022 at 8:20 AM, ShadowDuelist said:

Considering he's "luck" themed I always thought that having a Wes around would do better to RNG loot. Y'know, bring a little of extra joy to himself and the team inbetween all his miserable existence.
It could also make him wanted to have around at some fights, like a lucky charm mostly. 

I like this idea, however I’m not the biggest fan of how this sort of makes Wes less of a playable “character? I know that is NOT the best way to word it, but I can’t think of anything else. It’d be like you said you want to bring him to fights, but not because he’ll be actively helping but more because “oh we want the extra odds, you can go sit by the side and do nothing.” (Of course I imagine most of the time Wes players will still actively be participating in boss fights but I think you get the point). With other character’s combat perks they need to be actively participating in the fight in order to get the maximum benefit from them (wigfrid’s songs, for example, require the player to gain inspiration first), but with this Wes idea it’s not the player themselves is helping the fight but just the presence of a Wes is.

If Wes needed to be actively participating to get the luck bonus (itd probably need to be different than wigfrid’s inspiration and it’d need to require the Wes to be actively participating the whole fight and not just getting the last hit) then I think this would be a really great mechanic, however if it’s just a passive bonus then I think it’d bring more harm than good.

[moneymonday]

5 hours ago, Cheggf said:

doing nothing more than repeating himself over and over again

it can be frustrating trying to get your point across to someone when it makes perfect sense to yourself and none to anyone else 
 

 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Except people do enjoy playing Wes.  Maybe *you* don't, but others do.

enjoyment is obviously subjective but wes is really just a wilson that has to hit stuff for longer, don't know how youd actually find the character himself fun

 

 

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

People play them when they want a challenge, but not to play normally.

i think this is the point of the thread. you do play around wes cons normally (the average player does not have to worry about food and hitting stuff more just means you need to prepare a couple more football helmets), you dont play around wormwood cons normally. therefor wormwood is a better challenge character even though wormwood isnt more challenging. 

i also think that this is cannolis point; that there is no "reward" in terms of fun from playing wes when you didnt do anything different in the first place while wormwood is very "rewarding" in terms of fun because you change up your playstyle and are forced to think out of the box to heal (batbat) 

therefor to make wes a better challenge character you would need to give him a con that detrimentally changed the way you play him and forced you to look for alternative methods of dealing with stuff the other characters have no issue with 

[JoeW]

Let it go. Back on topic please. 

[Cannoli]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Challenge characters are often under played, that's the nature of them . People play them when they want a challenge, but not to play normally.

But that is the problem. Who play Wes? See the graphic chart... Almost nobody. So... Nobody like a "challenge"?

I, when I want a challenge in DST, play Worm, Warly, Maxwell and Walter (and sucks, but ok, my reward is be effective besides Wig, Wolf, Wicker, WX...)

I never play Wes, because he is not a "challenge" for me, he is just a chore, a boring waste of time. And I think that is not because "I don't like challenges". I just don't see any reward for do it.

Finally, tks for talk just about the subject and not about me or my poor grammar (would be better if I could write in Italian, Portuguese or Spanish).

[GenomeSquirrel]

I like Wormwood’s design, but I don’t consider him a challenge character. I view him as a min maxed character, extremely easy hunger and sanity for less convenient healing. With stone fruit, healing salves become highly renewable, and he’s essentially better than the average character.

Wes I consider a challenge character because of his low hp, speed and damage; but I’m not interested in the parts of the game that involve damage and hp, and everything else about him just wastes time I could be doing other things. As a lazy person, I hate wasting resources without getting a better return.

In short, I don’t consider Wormwood a challenge. Wes is a challenge, but he’s more wasteful than interesting.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, prezera said:

i think this is the point of the thread...

I think the problem of the thread is that people are on a completely different page about what a "challenge" character is, and question the design of a challenge character based on this mischaracterization.  In this post the OP makes it pretty clear what they are talking about:

On 3/19/2022 at 5:55 PM, endyfacts110 said:

When I say challenge I mean a character that has a major flaw but if you adapt and accept that flaw you get some reward.

And despite what they say about rewards including "Pleasure and satisfaction" I think its pretty obvious they are asking for some in game perk / advantage.

What they are describing is a high skill cap character.  Skill cap being the amount of expression you get, and mechanics you must work around to get the most out of a character.  This is different then a "challenge" character, especially the way Wes is used as one.

One of the primary reasons to do a "challenge" is to trim away certain gameplay elements and approach a more fundamental layer.  Speed runs trim away excess preparations, scienceless speed runs trim away advancement, and character challenges trim away character perks.

You can say that decreased damage "really just make tasks slower" but the fact is - that is more rotations through a boss's pattern.  Each rotation requiring you to execute your plan properly.  If I can KO AFW through just 2 cycles of his spells that's a lot easier than if I have to go through that cycle 4-6 times.  With double damage I can easily KO Klaus during a winter day but with Wes I will definitely need to fight through the long winter night.  Even though the decreased work efficiency makes things like chopping logs take longer, and I describe this as being more tedious - this is also a challenge because now I need to question how much time I'm going to devote to logging / mining, and how I might approach my goals with such limits in mind.

Sure you could just play Wilson, but even he has perks.  Increased insulation with his beard and bacon and eggs as his favorite food.

The entire thing is that some people are on a completely different page as to what a "challenge" character is.  The OP and others who think they should receive some in-game-perks or advantages for Wes.  If they want a reward for overcoming the challenges of their characters they should stick with characters like Wanda, Walter, Warly, Wormwood, etc.  That fits their desire.  They don't neet to change Wes just because he doesn't fit what they want, that is why we have character choice - there are choices for each situation.  If you don't want that character, don't pick them.

34 minutes ago, Cannoli said:

But that is the problem. Who play Wes? See the graphic chart... Almost nobody. So... Nobody like a "challenge"?

As I said before - a challenge character will not have a high pick rate.  A challenge character simply has to be recognized as one which provides no benefits - so that if you complete a task with them it was entirely skilled play at work, without any character perk accommodating or compensating for the player.  For example with Wolfgang's 2x damage I can stun the dfly to cancel a rage mode, easily clear lavae before they can attack, clearing them as fast as they spawn, and finish each phase of dfly easily before she summons another round of lavae.  However with Wes I cannot kill one lavae before its second attack, can't keep up with their spawn rate, can not stun dfly, and am at a high risk of dfly going through extra lavae summons through the fight - also I will probably need to fight through at least 1 night for the fight.  So when I want to illustrate my mastery of the fight, or show someone a tactic other people can use for the fight I can pick Wes and they can know that this strategy can work for them because it doesn't rely on character choice or perks.  On the most fundamental level the strategy works and every single character can employ said strategy.

Wes does not need to have a high pick rate - he only needs to be recognized as a zero-advantage character.  He kinda shouldn't be popular for this reason, he's a tool to take out when you need it, not to play every day (unless you're a masochist.)

[HowlVoid]

Common misconception that Wormwood is a challenge character. 

He is incredibly powerful in Hamlet and he's strong now.

[goblinball]

I imagine wormwood’s challenge depends on your playstyle. When I play wormwood I enter turbo farmer mode and am constantly by my crops 24/7, so wormwood is a very relaxed and easy character for me (unless lord of the fruit flies shows up and I don’t have any armor or weapons on me), and I almost exclusively play multiplayer so I’m usually able to find a wortox who’s willing to help grind living logs and heal whenever I need it. On the other hand, if someone is focusing much more on combat, or is constantly gathering wood for whatever reason and constantly insane, or is solo, then I imagine wormwood can be quite difficult.

Also, this is only tangentially related, but I love how wormwood gains sanity when planting crops. I always keep a handful of seeds on me whenever I explore the ruins as him so I can plop them down for sanity emergencies. It’s a bit sad seeing the seeds on later trips, but it’s a really handy ability.

[Glazmikyo]

Yeah Worm Worm is real close to being just as hard to play with as Wes, so it makes sense. But if you learn to use the character then its not that hard- even with Wes. Like if you used to running from everything and getting your sanity and kiting then you'll do alright with Wes. And if you are the person with your health always up and like thousands of manure you'll do good with woodworm. I just believe it focuses on your skills.