[Suggestion] Wolfgang's Each Swing Should Cost Hunger

[goatt]

Edit: This post analyzes numbers. It only speaks from the point of numbers. Wolfgang won't be a fridge vacuum in this suggestion, deerclops cost 7 extra hunger using spear, 3.5 extra hunger using dark word. Dragonfly 32 extra hunger using spear, 16 extra hunger using dark sword. Old DS Wolfgang costs 150 extra hunger to achieve same level of damage bonus. Doing nothing in mighty form costs nothing.

Wolfgang is working faster and killing faster, he's using tool durability faster (proportional to working speed bonus), but he's not using hunger meter's durability faster. I think it's fair for a mighty hulk to lose some hunger for each swing of tools or weapons.

To compensate the 1.5x working speed bonus, if hunger is also drain with the same rate while working, each swing should cost 0.04 hunger, which is equivalent to extra 37.5 hunger per day assuming he's swung his muscular arms all day long, 50% more than 75 for other characters

To compensate the 2x attack bonus, the equivalent hunger cost is 0.08 hunger per swing, or 75 extra hunger per day if he swings all day long.

Even tho, the effective hunger cost is still lower because he doesn't have extra hunger cost while walking or standing still.

I think compared to older versions of Wolfgang, the cost of mightiness is way too low. I think it's reasonable that this hulk should eat more for doing more.

While it's good that mightiness is stabilized more easily, the passive cost of this stabilized mightiness should be higher. In other words, it should be easy to switch it on, but it should cost more to keep it on.

Dumbbells and gyms and working are easy enough to switch on the mighty form, but the passive cost of maintaining mightiness is too low. For DS Wolfgang, this passive maintenance cost is massive hunger drain, for hit-penalized beta Wolfgang, the cost was massive mightiness penalty, which was way too harsh and required too much player skills. I think it's reasonable to scale the extra passive hunger cost according to the efficiency bonus.

 

Some numbers for reference that shows the cost of mightiness.

1. Old DS Wolfgang's mightiness cost for x2 damage modifier is extra 150 hunger per day, or total 225 hunger per day. (bonus is movement speed)

2. Reworked (not beta) Wolfgang's mightiness cost is

- 24 hunger per day by using gym to make up 30 mightiness loss per day, or

- resources cost of 4 rocks or 0.075 purple gems + 0.45 rocks to make up the mightiness loss

- bonus is marble suits, carrying heavy things and faster working speed

3. Beta Wolfgang (after removing mightiness penalty from hits), cost is

- hunger cost in gym 15 per day to make up, or 

- more affordable resource cost compared to rework Wolfgang, or

- little cost of crafting tool, inflexibility of finding chop or mining work to do

- bonus: marble suits, carrying heavy things, faster working speed, faster rowing.

 

Math with more details

The nostalgic DS Wolfgang has a hunger drain from x1.5 to x3 in mighty form and gives attack modifier x1.25 to x2.

The extra cost is x0.5 to x2 hunger drain to gain x0.25 to x1 bonus damage. As can be seen, the ratio of cost to gain is linear.

Because normal hunger drain is 75/day, the equivalent cost of per extra x1 bonus damage is 150 hunger/day, or 0.3125 hunger/sec

 

The reworked Wolfgang (not beta)

The cost of mightiness comes in 2 forms.

1. Gym which costs hunger, but doesn't cost resources such as gold nuggets or gems.

Taking the most efficient gyms for calculation, gym training roughly costs 4.5 hunger/s, and generate roughly 5.7 mightiness/s. To stay mighty, Wolfgang has to negate roughly 30 mightiness loss per day when hunger meter is well filled, which is about 5.25s of training, or 24 hunger in total, to maintain a full day's mightiness.

The invisible cost besides the building cost is that it's immobile and breakable. 

2. Dumbbells which cost resources but doesn't cost hunger.

The cost to fill up 30 mighty meter in mighty form requires 1 whole dumbbell (4 rocks), or 0.075 gembell / day (0.075 purple gem + 0.45 rock). Given gems usually comes. (Each player can get 1 red and 1 blue gems roughly per 11 days in late game, so that's 0.09 purple gems / day). How's this compared to 150 hunger/day?

 

Beta Wolfgang (after removing mightiness penalty from hits)

1. Gym, cost is roughly 15 hunger/day plus inflexibility.

2. Dumbbells, cost is affordable resources plus flexibility

3. Working, cost is the resources to make tool, which is less than dumbbells, but with the inflexibility of finding work, but with side effect of getting work done at a faster rate.

[MondayNight]

Doesn't he already have a 3x Hunger Mighty! drain if not working (mining, chopping, etc) or fighting?

On top of higher Sanity drain as well?!

He seems in a very good place atm, no need for further tweaks.

Also I believe devs mentioned somewhere, in regards to his original rework, that (among others) its purpose was to lift him from the classic "fridge vacuum" reputation, yet with your proposal you creep him back in said position, with extra steps.

[UbiAnomaly]

1 minute ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Doesn't he already have a 3x Hunger drain if not working (mining, chopping, etc) or fighting?

He has normal hunger drain now, no modifiers.

[MondayNight]

10 minutes ago, UbiAnomaly said:

He has normal hunger drain now, no modifiers.

Ah, nvm, I realized I was thinking at Mighty! drain in relation to some other post (quoted in spoiler below).

Spoiler

8 hours ago, Toros said:

It's pretty noticeable.  Base drain is 1 per 5 seconds, being 1 per 10 seconds if you stay above 150 hunger.  That means that mighty form lasts 4 minutes and 10 seconds if you're above 150 hunger and doing nothing to maintain mightiness.

It'll last 2 minutes between 100 and 150 hunger, and quickly ramps up until your mighty form can last about 15 seconds while starving.

I've been told it's roughly 3x as fast as it used to be in terms of drain.

 

Still, main idea remains: no need for further hunger drain.

[knightand]

If the powerful need to cost hunger , then why not use hunger directly, it is a bit redundant. And the beta version of Wolfgang passively loses every day very quickly. It's already hard to stay above 75, especially when it comes to the underground cave, which forces me to use a miner's cap, which I used to use with a lantern.

[Guille6785]

that sounds like old wolfgang with extra steps

[Cheggf]

And how would this make him more fun?

[SinancoTheBest]

Wofgang becomes Winona 2.0? Would bed pretty ironic :P

[PolRec]

Thematically it feels right.

Winona, a factory worker: I cost hunger when working.

Warly, a chef: I get hungry quicker.

Meanwhile Wolfgang, a fkin powerlifter who work out every day: What ? Calories ? yeah, no, I'll just eat some of those dumbells.

 

Yes I believe Wolfgang does eat his dumbells cuz I can't think of how they just disappear after being lifted too many times.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, PolRec said:

Winona, a factory worker: I cost hunger when working.

which is awful for how bad it is implemented

 

 

Wolfgang is now fun, doesn't need extra downsides and less when the whole point of  adding the mighty meter was to prevent wasting  food

[goatt]

12 hours ago, knightand said:

If the powerful need to cost hunger , then why not use hunger directly, it is a bit redundant. And the beta version of Wolfgang passively loses every day very quickly. It's already hard to stay above 75, especially when it comes to the underground cave, which forces me to use a miner's cap, which I used to use with a lantern.

It doesn't passively lose mightiness.

11 hours ago, Cheggf said:

And how would this make him more fun?

This angle purely analyzes numbers, it attempts to show balance by comparing different version of wolfgang.

12 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Also I believe devs mentioned somewhere, in regards to his original rework, that (among others) its purpose was to lift him from the classic "fridge vacuum" reputation, yet with your proposal you creep him back in said position, with extra steps.

Not a fridge vacuum, deerclops cost 7 extra hunger using spear, 3.5 extra hunger using dark word. Dragonfly 32 extra hunger using spear, 16 extra hunger using dark sword. Old DS Wolfgang costs 150 extra hunger to achieve same level of damage. Doing nothing in mighty form costs nothing.

I don't think it's a bad idea to post something different from dev's original plan, and it's not a bad idea to post something different from community's common opinions, especially when I have numbers to support me. Plus, I think number analysis is something everyone should always see and think about.

While it's undeniable that the current plan is to lift wolfgang, the cost has been lowered and new perks have been added. But I think the cost is too low. That's why I posted a suggestion to scale hunger cost to efficiency bonus. This extra hunger cost is nearly nothing, but is making the numbers more balanced.

[Cheggf]

5 hours ago, goatt said:

This angle purely analyzes numbers, it attempts to show balance by comparing different version of wolfgang.

Why are you trying to balance Wolfgang with himself when every other rework has done nothing but buff the character, sometimes to extreme amounts, and maybe remove their downsides?

Compare Wolfgang's balance to the rest of the roster, not himself. If character balance is so important he should be like 10th on the nerfing block.

[goatt]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Why are you trying to balance Wolfgang with himself when every other rework has done nothing but buff the character,

You miss my point. My point is as simple as "speaking from the numbers, mightiness comes too cheaply". My point is not "we should only care about numbers and only make decisions based on numbers". I just thought it's interesting to share some numbers and show some insights or angles that not been shared before. That's why i listed the number the math, and the implication. After all, balance of mechanic adjustment can be clearly reflected on cold numbers.

It seems like people here don't appreciate it. But it's ok, I just threw it out there to see what happens.

[dubious little]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

You miss my point. My point is as simple as "speaking from the numbers, mightiness comes too cheaply". My point is not "we should only care about numbers and only make decisions based on numbers". I just thought it's interesting to share some numbers and show some insights or angles that not been shared before. That's why i listed the number the math, and the implication. After all, balance of mechanic adjustment can be clearly reflected on cold numbers.

It seems like people here don't appreciate it. But it's ok, I just threw it out there to see what happens.

Why is mightyness coming too cheaply an issue though? Also the reason I personally don't appreciate it is pretty much I just fear he'll get ruined again. I enjoy Wolfgang a lot as fighting is one of my favourite things to do and I like being able to make mistakes while not needing to heal as much or invest as much time as things go down much faster. Even with 2x damage and all his speed with doing tasks I wouldn't exactly call him broken or even better than Wanda.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 hours ago, dubious little said:

Why is mightyness coming too cheaply an issue though? Also the reason I personally don't appreciate it is pretty much I just fear he'll get ruined again. I enjoy Wolfgang a lot as fighting is one of my favourite things to do and I like being able to make mistakes while not needing to heal as much or invest as much time as things go down much faster. Even with 2x damage and all his speed with doing tasks I wouldn't exactly call him broken or even better than Wanda.

and even if is broken... is the strongman, he deserves to be strong not just a "balanced" character. Also downsides are for making the experience more interesting not for the sake of making something less powerful. 1 thing is releasing a "faceroll-god-mode like character and other is having stronger and weaker characters, if they "balance" wolf then will they balance wes? will be dumb

right now for what i have experience, is waaaaay better and funnier than the live version. I wouldnt mind not having the 'lose mightiness on hit' if he remains as he is right now

[goatt]

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and even if is broken... is the strongman, he deserves to be strong not just a "balanced" character.

That I won't disagree. I don't feel like commenting on opinions. I'm glad you understand my numbers.

But I do have something to say about "too powerful" or "broken". Being more powerful or too powerful will discourage other characters from being played. The good balance is that when I think character A is too powerful, other players think it's not as powerful as character B, then it will encourage everyone to play different characters. But if one character is actually a very powerful "strongman"  or broken in consensus, like you said, then other characters are less liked. This is the general idea.

So I don't think if he should receive no balancing if he's indeed broken.

About why i suggest hunger drain as cost of mightiness, is because mightiness always cost something.

It either cost hunger in gym, or resources as in dumbbell. But as fights and working, it's pure gain without cost. The suggested number is actually same level of gym cost, which is to say, mightiness gained from working should be as costly or as cheaply as that gained in gym as both option actually cost nothing extra. I don't think my suggestion which is supported by number is actually a downside, it's just a fix to the bug of free mightiness compared to gym. It's actually to improve of consistency of cost for mightiness gain.

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

Why is mightyness coming too cheaply an issue though?

Cheaply is not an issue, "too cheaply" usually is.

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

I like being able to make mistakes while not needing to heal as much or invest as much time as things go down much faster.

The actually hunger cost per day is less than 20 for working, less than 40 for fighting, for non stop fights. A deerclops cost 7 hunger, a dragonfly cost as little as 16 hunger. You can make mistakes as much as you want, the extra cost is nearly nothing. It's a real balancing to numbers and improvement to consistency of mightiness cost across gym, dumbbell and passive method. Thinking this is an "extra" downside is a wrong way to look at it.

[dubious little]

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and even if is broken... is the strongman, he deserves to be strong not just a "balanced" character. Also downsides are for making the experience more interesting not for the sake of making something less powerful. 1 thing is releasing a "faceroll-god-mode like character and other is having stronger and weaker characters, if they "balance" wolf then will they balance wes? will be dumb

right now for what i have experience, is waaaaay better and funnier than the life version. I wouldnt mind not having the 'lose mightiness on hit' if he remains as he is right now

Agreed with everything, ye.

4 hours ago, goatt said:

Cheaply is not an issue, "too cheaply" usually is.

I mean there is other characters with better advantages with much less downsides. It just feels useless to tack this onto him, even with the increased hunger it doesn't exactly make him hard to play since you're saying the numbers are so low and food is already super easy to get. People with his og hunger drain could manage it pretty easily.

[goatt]

59 minutes ago, dubious little said:

even with the increased hunger it doesn't exactly make him hard to play since you're saying the numbers are so low and food is already super easy to get.

Exactly, that’s why it should be treated as a bug fix to improve the consistency of mightiness cost across the board. 

[Guille6785]

8 hours ago, goatt said:

Being more powerful or too powerful will discourage other characters from being played.

this would be true in any competitive game but it's not the case at all in a game like dst

[dubious little]

4 hours ago, goatt said:

Exactly, that’s why it should be treated as a bug fix to improve the consistency of mightiness cost across the board. 

Maybe I'm just dumb and misunderstanding you, but couldn't they just solve this by removing the ability to pause the drain with dumbbells? Because increasing the hunger loss so the drain goes down faster doesn't make the meter harder to maintain, the drain by itself already goes down very fast even at nearly full hunger.

[goatt]

9 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

this would be true in any competitive game but it's not the case at all in a game like dst

Why do people switch to wickerbottom to farm bq? Why do people switch to Wanda to farm klaus? Why do people switch to Wendy to feed a large base? Why do people switch to wicker again to farm sacks? Why do people switch to woodie for wood and toad? Why do people switch at all?

The needs to switch shows people do behaves similarly in this game as in other competitive game. In competitive game, the goal is to win, in this game, the goal is to do things faster or easier.

that’s why it’s important to have all character not “strongest” in consensus. It’s best that everyone thinks a different character is stronger. No one will pick a weak character because they will mentally struggle during game play like “why did it pick him, he’s so hard”. The reason people do pick weak ones are when they need the challenges. I can’t traverse all the reasons for you and exceptions do exist, but you get the idea. An easy way to check is go server list and count the number of Wes players. You can also ask them why they play Wes.

8 hours ago, dubious little said:

Because increasing the hunger loss so the drain goes down faster doesn't make the meter harder to maintain, the drain by itself already goes down very fast even at nearly full hunger.

I can only know so much, and I do not want to speculate what devs are thinking just so that I can be more convincing. All I have is the number and this very simple idea that mightiness cost is inconsistent and hope devs can fix it.

8 hours ago, dubious little said:

Because increasing the hunger loss so the drain goes down faster doesn't make the meter harder to maintain

If this is true, gym should also cost no hunger, because it speeds up mightiness loss. But i think easy fix to both gym problem and working hunger cost people is as simple as eating a butterfly, or carrot, or berry, or whatever. The magnitude of difficulty is very little, and the problem of inconsistency does exist.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

Why do people switch to wickerbottom to farm bq? Why do people switch to Wanda to farm klaus? Why do people switch to Wendy to feed a large base? Why do people switch to wicker again to farm sacks? Why do people switch to woodie for wood and toad? Why do people switch at all?

people generally just switch to characters out of laziness/convenience; switching just proves my point that people play what they want to play because otherwise they would stick to those "powerful" characters 24/7 instead of swapping to them in specific scenarios, an obvious example is that a lot of people still believe wicker/wortox/wx/wolfgang are strong characters yet they aren't all that popular compared to most other characters like willow/woodie/wilson if you look at the statistics

you can see pretty clearly in any dst community or just by looking at public servers that newer players just stick to beginner friendly characters while experienced players choose whoever they enjoy the most and maybe they'll switch if they think the situational advantages are worth the hassle, some don't even use the celestial portal at all

if people only played strong characters we wouldn't have wurt mains

[Mike23Ua]

This would be a very boring highly annoying downside that isn’t really needed..

Wolfgang isn’t OP anymore and noobs who don’t know how to play Wolfgang aren’t eating out your fridge anymore- The character has been fixed…

Why on earth suggest something that breaks him again?

[dubious little]

5 hours ago, goatt said:

I can only know so much, and I do not want to speculate what devs are thinking just so that I can be more convincing. All I have is the number and this very simple idea that mightiness cost is inconsistent and hope devs can fix it.

If this is true, gym should also cost no hunger, because it speeds up mightiness loss. But i think easy fix to both gym problem and working hunger cost people is as simple as eating a butterfly, or carrot, or berry, or whatever. The magnitude of difficulty is very little, and the problem of inconsistency does exist.

Well no I'm just saying these changes don't make the meter harder because you can stop its drain by walking with a dumbbell, so increasing the hunger doesn't matter because the issue isn't the drain its the fact that you can completely stop the drain. The gyms hunger drain exists for the same reason you said it does in your post, as a tradeoff for not needing to craft a dumbbell using materials up. (Again I don't think this is an issue still anyways).

[goatt]

@dubious little You don't seem to understand that it has nothing to do with your subjective feelings of whether it's hard or easy. It's just a systematic examination of the game design and whether there is a neglect. I'm NOT trying to make Wolfgang harder to play if that's what you are getting at. That's not the goal. That's just the accidental side effect.