Is Nona just a switch character? (the answer will surprise you)

[Theukon-dos]

30 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

Wow you really answer that ah, first im gonna say that i dont like the idea of discuss something with someone accusing me of cherrypicking with no knowledge about those terms... no i didnt cherry picked,

1. I looked up and linked the definition of cherry picking, so I definitly know what it means.

2. You didn't count the Sisturn in Wendy's perks so that Winona would look more complex in the comparison. Ergo, cherry picking.

 

EDIT: Ah, double-checking your post, I realized that you left out Winona's tapes along with the sisturn. Terribly sorry about that one, it's on me. My further points still stand; however.

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i used that comparison for another person cause he was saying that winona with no catapults is just wilson,

But you didn't reference them at all. Your comparison was completely directed towards me, and ergo; I shall treat it as being directed towards me.

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 wich is not true at all,

They didn't say "Winona without catapults is just Wilson" they said "Winona's non-catapult perks are so insignificant that she may aswell be Wilson". An important distinction that is true for reasons previously talked about.

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but even if thats the true then wendy is not different, as i showed before she has even less gimmicks perks than Nona. And i never wrote about Nona being better than wendy just cause that...

You say that, yet you completely ignore the counterarguments that several people have brought against you.

Yes, Wendy is simpler than Winona. 

And yes, Wendy without Abigail is less complex than Winona without catapults.

But the difference is that you have an actual reason to play Wendy full-time. Sure, you can swap to and from her to farm a bunch of whatever, but then you're not going to have her reduce sanity drain, or Abigail's help in day to day fights like Hound Waves or food farming.

Also, nobody said you were claiming that Winona's better than Wendy. That's all on you.

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see its hard to discuss if the other part dont get your point and its even trying to defend something so hard, sorry but this is gonna be my last reply to you, not gonna lost my time if you can't understand all i wrote and even worst you are gonna accusing me of something like cherrypciking lmao just read the whole thing please, thats all.

No.

 

I read what you had to say.

I understood what you had to say.

And I broke down everything you had to say one by one.

You claimed that Winona was worth playing for her perks, I explained why those perks don't matter. You asked why anyone would play Wendy full time. And I explained why.

It's you who came to these forums to proudly declare that Winona's not a swap character. You who's responsible for defending your argument, and you are the one who's chosen to ignore everything that everyone has to say against your claim.

 

You say that this is your last reply to me? 

Good.

As far as I'm concerned, that means I won. You couldn't defend your claim in any meaningful way, and now you're just going to pretend that my arguments don't exist. 

 

If this is your last reply to me, then this is my last reply to you. I bid you farewell and wish you a good day.

[Cuernito.]

14 hours ago, Auth said:

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the term "swap character" going on here! I'll try my best to explain.

Most characters in the game, with the exception of Wilson pretty much, have some or multiple mechanics tied to them that make their gameplay be mainly defined by specific attributes, some of which have a far greater impact on the game (Wanda can make forest>cave wormholes) all the way to some that have an extremely small impact on the game (Woodie can tame pigs/bunnymen for a longer time)

What the community mostly agrees to be the definition of a swap character is someone whose main major attributes (This being their most useful ones) can be used by any other character, regardless of if the original character who had the perks is there or not.

Here's a quick list of just the main thoughts off the top of my head. I'm not a pro so this is just what I know of.

  Reveal hidden contents

Major Wilson Perks: None
Other Wilson Perks: Beard
Can major perks be used by others: No, as he doesn't have any

Major Willow Perks: BERNIE!, Total Fire Immunity
Other Willow Perks: Can cook on lighter, Extinguishes fire faster
Can major perks be used by others: No, Willow needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wolfgang Perks: Stronger than other characters
Other Wolfgang Perks: Potato
Can major perks be used by others: No, Wolfgang needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wendy Perks: Abigail, Sisturn
Other Wendy Perks: Skins are very expensive on steam marketplace, doesn't lose sanity from ghosts
Can major perks be used by others: Not Abigail, her most useful bit, but Sisturn can (kinda)

Major WX-78 Perks: Gears upgrading, Overcharging
Other WX-78 Perks: Hatred
Can major perks be used by others: No, WX-78 needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wickerbottom Perks: Books, books, books
Other Wickerbottom Perks: Has science machine knowledge
Can major perks be used by others: Kind of, but only by Maxwell

Major Woodie Perks: Infinite axe, transformations
Other Woodie Perks: Tames allies for longer, likes poutine
Can major perks be used by others: No, Woodie needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wes Perks: Better than Wurt
Other Wes Perks: Balloons
Can major perks be used by others: Yes, everyone is better than Wurt

Major Maxwell Perks: Shadow minions, best-sounding voice in-game
Other Maxwell Perks: Can read Wickerbottom books, natural sanity gain
Can major perks be used by others: No, Maxwell needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wigfrid Perks: Cheap armor/weapons, Extra damage dealt + Damage reduction
Other Wigfrid Perks: Music, the best character in the game
Can major perks be used by others: Yes, the armor/weapons can be crafted in mass amounts and used by anyone (But the rest of her kit stays with her)

Major Webber Perks: Spider taming
Other Webber Perks: Literally everything in their refresh, can eat monster meat, beard
Can major perks be used by others: No, Webber needs to be present for these perks to work (Unless you count the spider hat...)

Major Warly Perks: Can make super-powerful foods, can buff foods even further
Other Warly Perks: Chef pouch
Can major perks be used by others: Yes, all of Warly's foods can be stored indefinitely & used by anyone

Major Winona Perks: Can make a variety of useful structures, Trusty Tape
Other Winona Perks: Crafts faster, Charlie hit, Wagstaff tool identification (only needed once) 
Can major perks be used by others: Yes, all of Winona's buildings & Tape can be used as normal by anyone

Major Wurt Perks: None (Unless you think merms aren't a waste of space)
Other Wurt Perks: Makes Wes not the worst character
Can major perks be used by others: Yes, crafting the Clever Disguise allows you to not get clobbered on sight by the wretched swamp-beasts

Major Wortox Perks: Soul healing, soul hopping, soul eating, soul embroidery, soul grocery shopping, soul karaoke, soul bowling (souling)
Other Wortox Perks: Compulsive liar, imp gang
Can major perks be used by others: No, Wortox needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Walter Perks: Mod character
Other Walter Perks: What does this character not have?
Can major perks be used by others: No, Walter needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wormwood Perks: Living log generation, Farming anywhere, blooming
Other Wormwood Perks: Didgeridoo, Not attacked by plants, brambles
Can major perks be used by others: No, Wormwood needs to be present for these perks to work

Major Wanda Perks: Can rip god apart if she wanted to
Other Wanda Perks: Spits on game balance
Can major perks be used by others: No, Wanda needs to be present to defy god

Did I miss any characters?

This isn't the most comprehensive list as I haven't sat down to no-life grind out 500 hours as each character, but it gets the general point across that some characters main perks, and main gameplay purpose to playing them, can be just as easily used by any other character after the main character is swapped away from.

As an example, after all of Winona's structures are crafted, all other characters can get the same usage out of them at the same efficiency as Winona, all the while still maintaining their character's unique perks and not needing the other items to justify their existence.

If you choose to never change characters, then sure, you could throw the entire idea out the window as obviously you'll never even have the opportunity to swap to anyone. But, for those that embrace changing characters, that's where the whole idea of swap characters comes from. It's not the fact that a character has strengths in certain scenarios, it's if a character's upsides can be used just as well by anyone in any scenario. That's why a character like Maxwell doesn't count as a swap character, despite being "gets a lot of resources quickly", because his perks only are usable if he's still present.

 

I don't think anyone here is trying to attack Winona, or by extension fans of Winona, because from what it looks like, it seems people are just upset that she has seemingly a lot more potential than she is used for. As a Nona fan, you of all people should want the character to be able to be fully utilized in every scenario, to have unique things to bring to the table and a bigger reason to keep her around outside of personal preference.

She isn't bad by any means, but after crafting everything she has, you might as well pick another character who can still utilize her stuff along with your new character's additional perks.

Eh you look like a smart person so i expect you to read all my reply as well as i read your whole reply :).

First let me put things clear, the whole reason of this post was to answer another post, the person was asking about this same thing, and i think i made a really good answer "well yes but actually no" this is the better answer i can think about, and its more complex than it seens, let me explain you, first in my post i never talked about the the term "swap character", i was talking about my personal understanding about the term "switch character" and how i feel about that. The true is that kind of terms are really subjetive, i mean a term that is defined by "the comunity"  its actually a really subjetive term, not all of the comunity agree with that, and i dont know where do you get the info about the majority of the comunity agreeing with that, but im gonna trust you this time, lets say that the majority think that way, still i never talked about the majority of the comunity, the thing here is that while i made my post from a personal and really subjetive way to answer something, you on the other hand are trying to be objetive but you are "speaking for the comunity"... you get it right? trying to be objetive is really hard so i didnt even try that in my post, i just made a post about my feelings about the term and how Nona can be a switch character yes but at the same time she is not,(not for me) how all the others characters can be switch characters(again im speaking about myself), if you want to be really objetive then the term "switch character" just mean a character that can be switchen so... yeah every character is like that, you can see this from a lot of points of view, thats the reason i tried to be clear in my post.

My post was just a personal opinion, you can read it again if you want to see if that's true, and no i didnt mean to use "the majority of the community agreement" definition. So thats it, no misundertanding at all at least for my part.

Now i will make you a question, do you think that if Nona catapults and generators were made exclusive to Nona to use, she will turn into a "no switch character"? well at least by your definition i will say yes but who knows, maybe someone of the comunity would made another definition for the term and say that the whole comunity agrees with that so Nona would be a switch character forever no matter what, that would be funny to see XD.

Oh and i never wrote about not wanting improves for Nona maybe you should read my post again :T.

Finally its just made me really sad what its happening in my topic...

You see i never expect someone to reply to my posts but when i got replys they always are about the post, they are not offtopic and right now im feeling that the replys are just about wendy, a lot of people defending her, saying why she is not a swap character... even though never wrote about she being a swap character for everyone, i only wrote that she was considered a switch character to me cause i dont enjoy her gameplay a lot, thats all. its makes me kinda sad that wendy just looks like the old wolfy character, oh i still remember you know those disccusion inside the comunity(not the forum btw) about how wolfy was just the best and playing all the others characters was not good, fun or optimal enough, "he was the meta" some people saying that haha. Gonna be clear again i play this game for FUN, i dont really care about whos better or strongest or optimal, i just like to vibe in this game.

Now that my post just turn into a Nona vs Wendy and some people still dont get that wendy its switchable only for me and maybe some other persons, i really regreat making it but oh well, at least i had fun discussin a little bit. :>

[Cloakingsumo198]

I just don't think Winona is interesting at all.....

I like her character, attitude, and lore connections.

Spoiler

Jimmy neutron hair grew on me to.

Her perks aren't cool tho and kinda suck.

Her "tools" are the same as a wigfrid leaving a bunch of helmets for everyone. Except a "new" player probably can't use the best of it properly.

Catapults are meant to be used in intuitive ways and their farms can be easily disrupted, the "spotlight" disappointed... so only the duct tape is as straightforward as wearing armor.

Atleast wigfrid has strong perks without her tools though.

But could be that all the building related perks and tools just doesn't appeal to me compared to literally anyone else in our roster.

Spoiler

Maybe just not Wilson cause he doesn't do anything "special" to begin with.

 

[Auth]

5 hours ago, NekoSoulx said:

First let me put things clear, the whole reason of this post was to answer another post, the person was asking about this same thing, and i think i made a really good answer "well yes but actually no" this is the better answer i can think about, and its more complex than it seens, let me explain you, first in my post i never talked about the the term "swap character", i was talking about my personal understanding about the term "switch character" and how i feel about that.

I could understand what you were saying originally, my post wasn't really intended to be solely for you to read, but it was more of trying to generally get everyone on both sides of the thread to understand what others were talking about, as it seemed like the main disagreement was that people weren't quite sure what exactly you meant with what you were originally saying. So, I wanted to make a post to attempt to clear the air a bit as it looked like some people were getting half the argument confused with the other half, and effectively going nowhere as the actual core points were misunderstood, so I wanted to do my best to try to explain what I've generally seen as what the mainly believed (Or at least what I've seen) ""definition"" of a swap/switch character is, while also lightly touching on the other meaning so as to show that there seemed to be a fundamental disagreement about what the disagreement was even about.

5 hours ago, NekoSoulx said:

Now i will make you a question, do you think that if Nona catapults and generators were made exclusive to Nona to use, she will turn into a "no switch character"? well at least by your definition i will say yes but who knows, maybe someone of the comunity would made another definition for the term and say that the whole comunity agrees with that so Nona would be a switch character forever no matter what, that would be funny to see XD.

I think it would be a bit more practical and make more sense if she was the only person to be able to use her equipment, because her main upside can effectively be added to any other character at just the expense of the building materials, which Winona would have to pay either way. I'd also like to see, even if other players can use her structures, (so it's not like the world gets cluttered with items unusable by 94% of characters) that she'd have some kind of tune-up to increase their effectiveness, so actually playing as Winona can feel like you're not only contributing, but that you are fully maximizing your current potential. All that aside I think it'd be interesting if such a mechanic could be applied to other buildings so she becomes more of a general engineer and efficiency machine, but as to how any of that'd work, I don't have any ideas for it right now.

5 hours ago, NekoSoulx said:

Oh and i never wrote about not wanting improves for Nona maybe you should read my post again :T.

Sorry! That was a genuine misread on my part. I went back and re-read your original post, and, I admit, I did entirely read this part wrong. My bad.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

17 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

also she doesnt need to be there to use her major perk with a bundle filled with Groucho glasses

Thanks, fixed. As I said I haven't sat down to grind out a ton of time as each character, but I at least got a main surface-level point across.

[dubious little]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:40 AM, UbiAnomaly said:

At this point, a "switch character" defines any character that can be swapped to, played as for a season or two, and subsequently swapped off of with no loss of any noteworthy positive factors. This can be seen in Warly as you pointed out (where his Volt Goat Chaud-froid is the only reason the vast majority of players use him and can be used by any character), but not at all in your other example, Wendy. Wendy has noteworthy exclusive perks, which betrays the previously given definition of what a "swap character" is. With Warly, you can cook some dishes and maybe give something some spice, bundle it all up and then switch back to your main character with no negative repercussions, whereas you lose the ability to summon Abigail when switching away from Wendy even if you left Abi's flower in a chest.

Winona is the spitting image of a swap character. You can switch to her, set up some catapults and generators, and then use them with any other character. The only character exclusive perks Winona has are her faster crafting and Charlie-dodge, but these are so inconsequential that she is basically Wilson.

Furthermore, I want to clarify that The Lunar Portal is not a problem. Or at least not a significant one. Like you, most players will barely use the thing since they, y'know, want to play the character they chose at the start. And that character could be Winona, if she was a character that was genuinely interesting and unique and had the aforementioned noteworthy exclusive perks. Right now, Winona is Wilson with an endgame, and really has nothing over any other character, nor a niche to play into. You may like her personality, or mining for the entire first autumn to kill a boss another character could kill in 5 days, but the vast majority of players do not (as seen in the amount of players that pick her) and I think that this definitely warrants some tweaking of the character. It's a similar situation to the strongman I dare not say the name of, where they deserve so much more than they got and very little is being done.

Also, the character portrait is really fitting.

TLDR; I agree with you (mostly), but Winona deserves more. Also Wendy is not a swap character.

I kinda think the portal is an issue, because you can't really change a character whose gimmick is making machines to have a reason to be chosen without either making the machines only usable by her (which would be dumb) or giving her another gimmick that isn't building things. Like you said most characters have a reason for you to play as them, but there is no reason to ever be Winona outside of you liking her purely because of the portal and the same goes for Warly, this isn't even like Wilson where he has no gimmick, because there's plenty of characters who can't be played as just a basic character, the problem with Winona is that her playstyle is basically not unique to her once the machines are down. It's like if you could switch to Webber, decorate a den and then have them be tameable to every character including the ability to switcherdoodle them, this would turn Webber almost obsolete to choose specifically since all the best spiders have easy switcherdoodles to make anyways. Thats what Winona has currently.

[Notecja]

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

goes for Warly

Warly can be actually all time needed, depending on construction of team and their demand for things. And sometimes some teams are like without a leg without Warly XD

[jan Mele]

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

I kinda think the portal is an issue, because you can't really change a character whose gimmick is making machines to have a reason to be chosen without either making the machines only usable by her (which would be dumb) or giving her another gimmick that isn't building things. 

That would just lead to Winona being used even less, imho. Her benefits are minimal, and she doesn't even have a fun perk like Warly's.

[Juny Pear]

My take on the whole idea of "Switch characters" is that so long as the character themselves brings their own unique merits only they can use, it's no problem at all if the things everyone can benefit off of are being dropped in a world and then you switch to another character.

Considering some character "Switch characters" for yourself isn't inherently bad. After all you might not like a character's playstyle but still want to utilize something they can provide. For example if like me you like building a lot and don't like to bother much with cooking food later on in your world, then temporarily switching to warly to cook spiced foods is totally fine.
He still provides a unique playstyle with his ability to make food on the fly which gives interesting buffs beyond just being able to mass produce honeyed powder cakes for example, but you're just not into that playstyle. After all it's super difficult to cater to all kinds of different players.

The problem in my eyes really comes in when a character provides very very little on their own, whilst providing so much with their items and structures everyone benefits from fully. That's why I personally don't really like how Wickerbottom or Winona are designed amongst other reasons. That is not at all to say they're bad or worthless at all, hell I played only Winona for a really long time before Wanda came around, it's just that you can get 90% of the benefit gameplay wise on top of other perks that another character can provide.

Many say this is an issue with the celestial portal, but I couldn't disagree more on that since locking players out of character switching just because one or two characters lose some of their value in the eyes of a lot of people because of it. Really it's just that when a character by design can't provide some sort of compelling unique benefit to themselves compared to the merits they grant any other character, then the character's perks need another look over.

I also would like to say that despite my opinions it's totally valid to play these characters, this is all just my view on this.

[dubious little]

53 minutes ago, jan Mere said:

That would just lead to Winona being used even less, imho. Her benefits are minimal, and she doesn't even have a fun perk like Warly's.

Thats an issue of the character itself being lackluster, they gave a character whose gimmick is to build things 2 machines and tape, they couldn't of even ported Wagstaffs thumper to her kit or something like that? It also doesn't really matter if someone who isn't going to play her for more than 5 days picks her, so less players for her isn't really less players, it just shows the actual amount of people playing her for her.

57 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Warly can be actually all time needed, depending on construction of team and their demand for things. And sometimes some teams are like without a leg without Warly XD

True his food has a lot more utility than Winonas gimmick, but it's still kinda dumb to me that you can just use up a characters gimmick then switch off them and use it as anybody else. I'd like it better if you gained an ability to swap to one (perhaps it can be customised to more too) other character(s) with a cooldown in any location, this would make it so you'd actually think about what character you wanna choose as your switch so unless you actually enjoy the machines enough you wouldn't choose Winona. This makes it so you choose Winona because you actually just like the character and not to just set up some auto farms then never touch her again.

[jan Mele]

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

Thats an issue of the character itself being lackluster, they gave a character whose gimmick is to build things 2 machines and tape, they couldn't of even ported Wagstaffs thumper to her kit or something like that?

I replyed because you said that the portal is an issue. 

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

It also doesn't really matter if someone who isn't going to play her for more than 5 days picks her, so less players for her isn't really less players, it just shows the actual amount of people playing her for her.

M'k

1 hour ago, dubious little said:

True his food has a lot more utility than Winonas gimmick, but it's still kinda dumb to me that you can just use up a characters gimmick then switch off them and use it as anybody else.

Why is this dumb? Like, could you actually explain? 

[Notecja]

2 hours ago, dubious little said:

but it's still kinda dumb to me that you can just use up a characters gimmick then switch off them and use it as anybody else

I would use commands if they added something like cooldown. I believe I read on forum, before portal people anyway were using mods and commands to swap characters. Or use alt-account or something like that to just play some "swichable" characters. Anyway it's a sandbox game and I believe in freedom.

Swap portal imo is not an issue, but just how some characters are done. That's why most reworks (except last one...) are removing downsides and adding more random perks. Why you would even need to change characters, if your charater is simply too funny to change? And have friends with various characters and their skills?

Also cooldown would punish solo players, but they (in theory) can as well just invite random friend/person to do stuff for them, like random winona, and then never again play with them. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, dubious little said:

but it's still kinda dumb to me that you can just use up a characters gimmick then switch off them and use it as anybody else

why? maybe i just wanna craft a sistrum for decoration

[dubious little]

1 hour ago, jan Mere said:

I replyed because you said that the portal is an issue. 

M'k

Why is this dumb? Like, could you actually explain? 

1. The portal is an issue, but Winona is also lackluster. Warly is well made and still has the issue.

2. I mean if you disagree you can just explain why, I don't really know what the goal of this is, sarcasm? why tho?

3. Warly's entire gameplay style is basically entirely ignored from using the portal to switch, you don't need to suffer his curse of wanting different foods, you don't need to learn crockpot recipes with it, you just make the food and bundle them then wait to/instantly switch back.

Winona is already a pretty basic character, so the fact that you can switch to her and make the machines then switch back makes her character have no reason to exist, might as well let everybody make the machines at that point. Dodging Charlie is a very niche upside and the fast crafting is a blessing and a curse.

Not to mention Wx, while his rework will hopefully fix this it's really dumb that he is actively encouraged not to use the portal because he loses gears.

 

Even though this issue doesn't matter to the majority, I think it sucks that it happens at all and I don't really know how you could fix it without changing the portal or changing Warly and Winona (which I really don't think Warly needs changing plus idk how you'd change him even, I could think of things for Winona).

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

why? maybe i just wanna craft a sistrum for decoration

But you don't get to use Abi or the potions, the sistern isn't Wendy's entire gimmick. Maybe Warly has more than I'm aware of but Winona purely has the machines.

8 minutes ago, Notecja said:

I would use commands if they added something like cooldown. I believe I read on forum, before portal people anyway were using mods and commands to swap characters. Or use alt-account or something like that to just play some "swichable" characters. Anyway it's a sandbox game and I believe in freedom.

Swap portal imo is not an issue, but just how some characters are done. That's why most reworks (except last one...) are removing downsides and adding more random perks. Why you would even need to change characters, if your charater is simply too funny to change? And have friends with various characters and their skills?

Also cooldown would punish solo players, but they (in theory) can as well just invite random friend/person to do stuff for them, like random winona, and then never again play with them. 

I just don't know how you'd fix it for these characters tho without changing the portal, like how do you make it so Warly's dishes can only be exclusive to him? The entire point is you feed it to others, but if they can fix the characters then the portal is fine imo. Solo players inviting someone else to do something like that assumes they just have a random guy that doesn't wanna play but is willing to hop on the world and craft the machines, even if they do at that point you might as well just use commands if you really want them.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 minutes ago, dubious little said:

but Winona purely has the machines.

she has speedy crafting so is perfect to refine after mass producing materials but i agree that she needs more

what i dont understand is why the portal matters for you, characters must be fun because that is the goal of the game not just "make this character different because some nerd is using their perks and other nerd is offended" (dramatization before some ned flanders come)

[dubious little]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

she has speedy crafting so is perfect to refine after mass producing materials but i agree that she needs more

what i dont understand is why the portal matters for you, characters must be fun because that is the goal of the game not just "make this character different because some nerd is using their perks and other nerd is offended" (dramatization before some ned flanders come)

Cause I like for all the characters to be unique or be worthwhile for them to be developed, Klei spent time making Winona with an animation and everything but her entire existence doesn't matter in the game. It's not like i'm tearing my hair out, if it goes unchanged I won't complain about it but the discussion is here and I like talking about my fav game so I put my input, simple as that really.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, dubious little said:

Cause I like for all the characters to be unique or be worthwhile for them to be developed, Klei spent time making Winona with an animation and everything but her entire existence doesn't matter in the game. It's not like i'm tearing my hair out, if it goes unchanged I won't complain about it but the discussion is here and I like talking about my fav game so I put my input, simple as that really.

again, the portal isnt the problem

you can use wormwood only in spring to get easy and fast giants but nobody complains about him because he is interesting, winona no, period

[Juny Pear]

Yeah I really don't see why the portal would be the big issue here or why it would prevent anyone from developing characters in a way that's fun and satisfying to play

.

[jan Mele]

9 hours ago, dubious little said:

2. I mean if you disagree you can just explain why, I don't really know what the goal of this is, sarcasm? why tho?

Sorry I didn't meant that, English is not my first language. 

8 hours ago, dubious little said:

Cause I like for all the characters to be unique or be worthwhile for them to be developed, Klei spent time making Winona with an animation and everything but her entire existence doesn't matter in the game. It's not like i'm tearing my hair out, if it goes unchanged I won't complain about it but the discussion is here and I like talking about my fav game so I put my input, simple as that really.

That would still leave Winona as boring as Wx. Wilson is still useful as a possible result you can get from picking a random character, so is Winona, but there's no reason to have both

[dubious little]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:15 AM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

again, the portal isnt the problem

you can use wormwood only in spring to get easy and fast giants but nobody complains about him because he is interesting, winona no, period

It's kinda both imo, being able to use a characters gimmick is the entire point of switching to them so being able to use Wormwoods gimmick during spring isn't an issue. The issue is Winona and Wary's gimmick can be used by anyone and the reason that issue exists is because of switching, and like I said I genuinely dunno how you could fix it for Warly and the fix for Winona (making machines only used for her) is basically making the machines useless unless a Winona is in your world which with how specific their uses are + how little shes played I don't really see the point in switching to her at all at that point unless you really have nothing to do in your world.

17 hours ago, jan Mere said:

Sorry I didn't meant that, English is not my first language. 

That would still leave Winona as boring as Wx. Wilson is still useful as a possible result you can get from picking a random character, so is Winona, but there's no reason to have both

1. Ah alright, dw about it.

2. Yeah true, but it still fixes an issue.

 

[Atkvin]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:53 AM, dubious little said:

I think it sucks that it happens at all and I don't really know how you could fix it without changing the portal or changing Warly and Winona (which I really don't think Warly needs changing plus idk how you'd change him even, I could think of things for Winona).

Only thing I can think of is Warly needing to be present in a world for other characters to eat and use his special dishes, though it feels rather contrived.

I think Winona's generators should be incapacitated by rain and need Winona to get back online, and catapults losing their self-heal to only be repairable with tape by Winona specifically - not outright making her machines exclusive, but heavily incentivizing players to stick around as her. Way more focus should be on improving her kit though, not just leaning on this as a bad crutch to hope players play her more.

[dubious little]

15 hours ago, Atkvin said:

Only thing I can think of is Warly needing to be present in a world for other characters to eat and use his special dishes, though it feels rather contrived.

I think Winona's generators should be incapacitated by rain and need Winona to get back online, and catapults losing their self-heal to only be repairable with tape by Winona specifically - not outright making her machines exclusive, but heavily incentivizing players to stick around as her. Way more focus should be on improving her kit though, not just leaning on this as a bad crutch to hope players play her more.

Yeah Winona was just not made with enough meat on her bones, that fixing her machines with tape could be a good idea to implement in the future. Idk about the Warly one though tbh.

[Theukon-dos]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:30 PM, dubious little said:

It's kinda both imo, being able to use a characters gimmick is the entire point of switching to them so being able to use Wormwoods gimmick during spring isn't an issue. The issue is Winona and Wary's gimmick can be used by anyone and the reason that issue exists is because of switching, and like I said I genuinely dunno how you could fix it for Warly and the fix for Winona (making machines only used for her) is basically making the machines useless unless a Winona is in your world which with how specific their uses are + how little shes played I don't really see the point in switching to her at all at that point unless you really have nothing to do in your world.

1. Ah alright, dw about it.

2. Yeah true, but it still fixes an issue.

 

Warly can be easily fixed just by giving him a couple tweaks that only he can benefit from. He actually got more stats from foods back during Shipwrecked, so I'd start by bringing that back. His food memory would probably need to be tweaked to compensate, but being able to heal 50 off of a pierogi instead of 40 would be great for day-day patching up. Other than that, the main thing I see suggested is Warly getting a better effect from his buff foods, either on Duration or effect. That way anyone can use his buff foods. But Warly can use them the best.

[dubious little]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:52 AM, Theukon-dos said:

Warly can be easily fixed just by giving him a couple tweaks that only he can benefit from. He actually got more stats from foods back during Shipwrecked, so I'd start by bringing that back. His food memory would probably need to be tweaked to compensate, but being able to heal 50 off of a pierogi instead of 40 would be great for day-day patching up. Other than that, the main thing I see suggested is Warly getting a better effect from his buff foods, either on Duration or effect. That way anyone can use his buff foods. But Warly can use them the best.

These are good changes actually that I never thought about, I am now convinced the portal isn't the issue and the characters just need tweaking.

[Blunty_x]

I have a friend who always plays Winona, everytime, without fail. Idk why and I've never asked her since if that's who she likes, well who am I to say otherwise. 

Now, I've played Nona, a few times for hundreds of days and gotta say..she is underwhelming yet very powerful all at the same time..because her Catapults are extremely useful but imho that's it! Her hunger drain on build and subsequent slow was too much of a bother for me since I love megabasing and believe it or not ****** with My timing.

The catapults are amazing, I think we can all agree on that. It multiplies her combat prowess and even though the initial cost is pretty high the upkeep is super low and can last the entire time you play that world. Set em up to kill, Dfly, Bee Queen, Toadstool, Klaus etc etc. 

But like OP said..fun is subjective, I'm currently maining Wurt and love her even though she statistically is picked less then Winona..at the end of the day every character can build large bases and kill bosses the only difference is gues is how you decide to go about it. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:52 PM, Theukon-dos said:

Warly can be easily fixed just by giving him a couple tweaks that only he can benefit from. He actually got more stats from foods back during Shipwrecked, so I'd start by bringing that back. His food memory would probably need to be tweaked to compensate, but being able to heal 50 off of a pierogi instead of 40 would be great for day-day patching up. Other than that, the main thing I see suggested is Warly getting a better effect from his buff foods, either on Duration or effect. That way anyone can use his buff foods. But Warly can use them the best.

but then what will be the point of his downside? is already easy to heal as him because you dont lose thay much healing if you repeat a dish

what isnt broken doesnt need a fix imo