I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[Mysterious box]

On 12/20/2021 at 5:06 PM, HowlVoid said:

I think that example you gave Zark is just too flawed, not because DST isn't a competitive game, but because DST isn't a fighting game. 

Comparing a fighting game to a sandbox game is just out there... Very much like comparing oranges and apples. The most popular character in the game is Wendy and it's because she trivializes every single non boss encounter in the game. Hounds? Gone. Spiders? Gone. Pigs? Gone. 

So are you going to nerf Wendy next? 

The next problem is that Wolfgang wasn't even nerfed at all, with his more consistent damage more than making up for the loss in speed. 

Then nerfing Wolfgang for something so trivial, because you want other characters to shine? That's a big, big slap in the face to Wolfgang mains. I honestly thought you guys had a better reason than that. You don't cut off your legs to get more use out of your arms. This goes back to Wolfgang not even being the most popular character in the game. 

I think it's funny cause in the grand scheme of things Wolfgang became more of what he was, but stronger. All that was done is make him more boring while changing nothing at all. I have tried and tried to deal with the meter but it's just so unintuitive. We need more tools to deal with it and Wolfgang needs to be expanded upon outside of battle. 

My final note is that I think the team went about nerfing the wrong thing... I think his damage should have been nerfed a bit honestly to what the average was pre rework, like 85%? And then expanded from there.

No good sir we nerf webber next for being too op both in having the best combat followers and followers most likely to destory a server...

[Waynel]

I don’t wanna rub salt in the wounds of this wolfgang rework drama but heck, I’ll add this “final note”.

 

 

I’m still trying to process why some people just cannot see how op old wolfgang was.

Don’t you guys remember edgy rick’s speedrun where he killed df day 19, klaus day 26, bq day 36, shadow pieces day 61, fw day 70 ???

For crying out loud, he even had time to squeeze in a small bunnyman farm !

How much additional evidence did edgy rick have to provide for you people to realize that old wolfgang was inherently imbalanced ??!

 

[Mike23Ua]

10 minutes ago, Waynel said:

I don’t wanna rub salt in the wounds of this wolfgang rework drama but heck, I’ll add this “final note”.

 

 

I’m still trying to process why some people just cannot see how op old wolfgang was.

Don’t you guys remember edgy rick’s speedrun where he killed df day 19, klaus day 26, bq day 36, shadow pieces day 61, fw day 70 ???

For crying out loud, he even had time to squeeze in a small bunnyman farm !

How much additional evidence did edgy rick have to provide for you people to realize that old wolfgang was inherently imbalanced ??!

 

But does removing his speed balance that? I doubt it… you can’t dodge as easy any more that’s true, But you can also wear armor and deal 2x damage the whole fight: Pretty sure you would actually finish the fights FASTER now.

I don’t know: Because I don’t do speed runs but at least from the bosses I have fought: Deerclops, Eye of Terror, Bearger, Moose/Goose, Dragonfly: Wolfgang actually finishes those fights Faster then pre-rework.

[HowlVoid]

Guys remember when Don Giani killed every pre-return of them boss with pre-reworked Webber all within a year?!

And then Klei had the NERVE to buff Webber!

I don't understand why people can't process that Webber was already op!

Seriously how much more evidence do you guys need that Webber was unbalanced??!!!

[Mike23Ua]

So is Wormwood 

But in all seriousness what the heck ever happened to that second roadmapped QoL update? Maybe they decided to delay it into 2022 but hopefully it will include a-

(nerf to Wormwood he’s OP)

 Fix for Wurts dumb Merms.

[Yuuko]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But does removing his speed balance that? I doubt it… you can’t dodge as easy any more that’s true, But you can also wear armor and deal 2x damage the whole fight: Pretty sure you would actually finish the fights FASTER now.

I don’t know: Because I don’t do speed runs but at least from the bosses I have fought: Deerclops, Eye of Terror, Bearger, Moose/Goose, Dragonfly: Wolfgang actually finishes those fights Faster then pre-rework.

Technically yes, in a way, but also definitely no.  His damage was standardized in the rework, but it wasn't a significant raise.  Old Wolfgang could run between 1.9 and 2x damage, eating little bits to maintain that (or using milkmade hat.)  He used to have a fat 300 health bar, 50% more than current Wolfgang.  Tank and trade lets you put out a lot higher dps, and old Wolfgang was better for that.  Plus old Wolf could wear marble suit too - anyone can - just swap to it when you wanna trade, and swap back to a log suit when you wanna kite.

[Porkus]

59 minutes ago, Waynel said:

I don’t wanna rub salt in the wounds of this wolfgang rework drama but heck, I’ll add this “final note”.

 

 

I’m still trying to process why some people just cannot see how op old wolfgang was.

Don’t you guys remember edgy rick’s speedrun where he killed df day 19, klaus day 26, bq day 36, shadow pieces day 61, fw day 70 ???

For crying out loud, he even had time to squeeze in a small bunnyman farm !

How much additional evidence did edgy rick have to provide for you people to realize that old wolfgang was inherently imbalanced ??!

 

 

Well Edgy Rick isn't even a good player, and here is that and more done by day 60 as Maxwell: 

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

I will convince myself that this person isn't real, one way or another

[Porkus]

8 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I will convince myself that this person isn't real, one way or another

agreed

[Lex the Grim]

Everything impactful about Wolfgang is tied to being mighty and his Mighty is relatively tedious to get to now, especially if you're going to be playing him for a significant amount of time, and most importantly, his rework is feeling very unimpactful like others have mentioned.

 

He's not really gotten anything new, he's just had a few things removed, and the way he gains Mightyness has been changed so that acquiring it doesn't negatively impact other players on the server, but in exchange it is certainly more tedious, or at the very least, definitely not funner like a rework should be.

I have a few spitbally suggestions that basically boil down to:

Put more effects into his other forms.

Instead of just making it mighty = access to his perks, give his other forms interesting changes: 1.25 damage multiplier in average form and nothing else (similar to wig but he doesn't have the inbuilt lifesteal, damage reduction, or access to songs so her niche is still preserved); his current mighty stays the same; and maybe, in Wimpy form, the nerfs it normally has but also: Da da da daaaa, maybe his speed back?

Now I know Klei has stated his speed is never coming back, but to me that statement is made in the context of speed while mighty, essentially no speed in mighty so he can't have the cake and eat it too. That's fine.

Essentially what I'm suggesting is incentivizing not having to be Mighty all the time, creating meaningful game choices about which form gives the most benefit for the current situation, rather than dealing with working out as a gating mechanic to his mechanics full stop.

I also think his Dumbbells need to be tweaked to make them faster, more user friendly, not use durability for working out, that kind of thing. But those are easy fixes.

[Myphanos]

>human nature dictates that it is self-centered, therefore no action made by man is without an intrinsically transactional motive.

>spiritualism and altruism is almost always overpowered by greed in the common individual.

>introspective is only a characteristic of the enlightened individual and unlocked only by those who recognize fallibility as ultimately intrinsic to the existence of consciousness and being.

Understand these three basic concepts to their ultimate nomenclature, and you will understand the truth behind why unfairness exists within a collective consciousness.

 

[JustExo]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:27 AM, zarklord_klei said:

To give an example, lets take a look at the competitive scene for Super Smash Bros Brawl, in that game there are 35 characters you can choose from, but in the competitive scene you only have two options(if you're wanting to win): Meta Knight (the literal best character in the game) and Olimar (the only character with a doable matchup against Meta Knight), so despite having 35 characters, those are really fake choices, and in reality there is 2 choices(again if you want to win).
 

This is wrong

Metaknight was the best character in the game no doubt, but Olimar didn't even have a winning matchup against MK 

The meta for Brawl was ultimately decided by a number of variables, a lot of which were due to the limitations of the game itself, such as moves being very large, the engine not favoring the fast paced action that its previous entries were known for, and the prominence of chain grabbing in the meta, which saw the rise of characters like Ice Climbers who could just regrab you immediately after throwing you, and D3 who had chain grabs on most of the cast.

On 12/20/2021 at 10:27 AM, zarklord_klei said:

Now was Wolfgang the "meta knight" of our game? Kinda, obviously the parallel isn't perfect, and the game isn't competitive, but he had a lot of traits that pushed him into that direction pre rework, and while people can play the game however they want, its not a good look for our game to have such a large range of characters, all completely overshadowed by pre rework Wolfgang, when he is effectively the best to second best at just about anything (as an example, in farming Wormwood is the best, but the completely free 1.25x speed boost he got meant that even though not by much, Wolfgang would consistently be the second best at farming, obviously there are exceptions, like if you want to use Wickerbottom's books to grow the crops, but there are limitations on those that might make them undesirable in certain situations), again there are lots of exceptions, but as a general rule you could look at any task in the game, and Wolfgang would probably be the best or second best character to use for it(because of his speed).

Making the claim that Wolfgang was anything like Metaknight in brawl is overstating the significance to how "op" Wolfgang might have been, or underselling how insanely overpowered Wolfgang was. 

Did you know that a solid chunk of Brawl's stage list was made illegal because of Metaknight? Specifically that one character?

Comparing Wolfgang to how overpowered metaknight was would be like making the claim that Wolfgang was defining how everybody should, and would play the game. Wolfgang had very little in terms of what he, and he alone could do outside of combat in any meaningful way. The biggest difference was whether or not he would be able to get an extra hit in or not. 

Wolfgang was in no way shape or form comparable to Brawl Metaknight, nor did he have anywhere near as much of an impact to anybody other than the relatively small amount of players that would go out of their way to play the game in a way they enjoyed.

[HowlVoid]

I'm sure Zark knows now that that isn't a good comparison. 

In a fighting game where you can only fight, the best fighter is of course going to dominate.

Wolfgang was first pick for speedrunning, but thinking this going to allow other characters to shine in the speedrunning scene is not how things work (who even cares about what a small percent of the fan base does, idc about speedrunning). 

Essential, one or two characters like Wigfrid will end up dominating the speedrunning scene. Hell, it may even still be Wolfgang. Because for speedrunning you'll only look at who is good for that. 

I hope someone at Klei isn't making false claims and the other devs are just going with it because they're not as active "gamers", so they look at this person as the definitive "hands on experience". 

Because to say that Wolfgang is the most popular character in the game is way out there and far from the truth.

[JustExo]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wolfgang was first pick for speedrunning, but thinking this going to allow other characters to shine in the speedrunning scene is not how things work (who even cares about what a small percent of the fan base does, idc about speedrunning). 

I think there's something in this sentiment that can be applied to Brawl

Brawl is a game that was fundamentally geared towards, not the casual player, but to shun the competitive playerbase. Brawl is notorious in the smash community for its anti-competitive mechanics that only targeted a niche amount of Nintendo's playerbase.

Smash's general audience isn't going to be affected by things like tripping or a lack of L canceling because they have no reason to care about it. The game is going to still play mostly the same for them so long as its still fun to them.

Wolfgang's general playerbase isn't going to be affected by things like the might meter, or a lack of a speed boost because they have no reason to care about it. The character is still going to play mostly the same for them so long as its still fun to them.

The only people this update really impacts is the niche audience of people who enjoy the high speed and more volatile gameplay afforded to them to their predecessors. 

Anyways, I can beat Zarklord in smash 

[minespatch]

 

Think they removed his speed because they want to make a new speedrunning character?

[JustExo]

3 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Think they removed his speed because they want to make a new speedrunning character?

I think they're not adding much to make wolfgang play any differently than how he was played previously, while stepping on the toes of speedrunners in the process

[HowlVoid]

24 minutes ago, JustExo said:

The only people this update really impacts is the niche audience of people who enjoy the high speed and more volatile gameplay afforded to them to their predecessors. 

I have actively been monitoring the forum since the update and that hasn't been my experience. A lot of casual Wolfgang mains are discontent with the lack in speed and now they feel "slow". 

There's been a good number people who have never even engaged with the forum, until now. 

Its also not so much the lack of speed that's the problem, it's more what does Wolfgang have besides damage? Most people just gravitate towards the speed because that is what worked best for 8ish long years. Long years where a lot of people agreed that Wolfgang worked and didn't need much of a change. 

I have my own personal gripes with the meter itself but that's besides the point, because perhaps my gripes are mine alone and the meter just doesn't appeal to me. Klei can't cater to everyone. 

The meat of the conversation is why is Wolfgang's refresh so uneventful? So lacking? 

Compared to the complexity and tools given to Webber, Wendy and Wigfrid, Wolfgang just has one. One tool that comes in 4 tiers dumbbell 1, dumbbell 2, dumbbell 3, and gym, that all serve the same purpose but at different tiers. It's an overconpensating bloated mechanic, made larger than it is for the sake of just padding it full and dressing it up. If you can replace all of his tools with one (a super dumbbell if you will) and end up with the same early game, mid game and end game, then there is a larger problem. 

Wolfgang's speed is just the most logical answer as that had been the solution before, the solution that been around for 8 long years. I think Klei just needs another crack at it, something to make Wolfgang feel a little more engaging and less oversaturated. 

[JustExo]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I have actively been monitoring the forum since the update and that hasn't been my experience. A lot of casual Wolfgang mains are discontent with the lack in speed and now they feel "slow". 

I personally don't use the forums all too much, nor do I really intend to, I prefer being active in the Dont Starve Discord more than any other forum, and the main gripe I see is more towards the speed of the character than the movement speed itself.

Which sounds a bit contradictory but I can explain what I mean

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Its also not so much the lack of speed that's the problem, it's more what does Wolfgang have besides damage? Most people just gravitate towards the speed because that is what worked best for 8ish long years. Long years where a lot of people agreed that Wolfgang worked and didn't need much of a change. 

Wolfgang as a character revolves almost, if not entirely around the aspect of combat in this game with his only perk outside of it being his speed boost pre rework, and a few very niche things after his rework. Fundamanetally this creates content because so many things that wolfgang can fight are locked behind time which makes people feel bored playing him because: what are you going to do between the fights? Its not like Wolfgang really has anything to set up in that downtime. He just needs to wait around for the next one.

This ultimately leads people who play wolfgang, from what I've gathered talking to people in discord servers, as seeing him as boring.

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The meat of the conversation is why is Wolfgang's refresh so uneventful? So lacking? 

Compared to the complexity and tools given to Webber, Wendy and Wigfrid, Wolfgang just has one. One tool that comes in 4 tiers dumbbell 1, dumbbell 2, dumbbell 3, and gym, that all serve the same purpose but at different tiers. It's an overconpensating bloated mechanic, made larger than it is for the sake of just padding it full and dressing it up. If you can replace all of his tools with one and end up with the same early game, mid game and end game, then there is a larger problem. 

This update did little to nothing to remedy the aspects that people found so boring in the long term, and really just added things that literally make you stop and wait, much like what people don't like about his character pre-rework

10 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wolfgang's speed is just the most logical answer as that had been the solution before, the solution that been around for 8 long years. I think Klei just needs another crack at it, something to make Wolfgang feel a little more intuitive and less oversaturated. 

Without having something cool and useful to set Wolfgang apart from everyone else outside of combat and in that downtime, he just feels like a bigger Wilson, which if you're playing a character who isn't Wilson, you want to feel as though you are playing a character that isn't wilson

[Mike23Ua]

So what if.. Wolfgang’s beginning weight (the small one) instead of instant killing mobs it hits instead “konks” them on the head? Knocking them out..

This would allow Wolfgang to gather living animals faster, such as Rabbits to create Earmuffs if join mid winter, or build a Prestihatitator, Mole Worms for cave Moggles, we don’t have a character in the game that can “Bonk” enemies into unconscious-ness without well.. in like with Mole Worm actually Bonking them on the head with the Hammer.

Would still instant kill small birds, but only knock out Rabbits/Moleworms for collecting.

I feel like a character rework should offer up a brand new way of playing a character and I don’t feel like they’ve done enough for Wolfgang.
 

Hopefully when they return to office on January 4th they’ll put out a new update for him based on all the Feedback they’ve gathered & read.

[JustExo]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I feel like a character rework should offer up a brand new way of playing a character and I don’t feel like they’ve done enough for Wolfgang.
 

Hopefully when they return to office on January 4th they’ll put out a new update for him based on all the Feedback they’ve gathered & read.

I definitely agree that reworks should offer new ways to play, but I feel wolfgang rework is very limiting in what he is allowed to do to some extent.

I am of the opinion that Might should be able to be gained through a means other than just working out, like if it gradually increased over time if his hunger was at or above something like 90%, which will help alleviate the tedium behind stopping to work out to maintain might, but still making working out a better way to gain might overall

People keep saying that Wolfgang is at least different now because he isn't the "eat, get big, fight boss" character now, but I think its worse because now he's the "work out, get big, fight boss" character.

I think tying all his perks to his mighty form adds to the tedium since it creates a "if you want to have your perks, you gotta be mighty all the time" sort of playstyle, which is especially noticeable if you try to make use of something like his piggyback not having a movement speed decrease

Overall this rework was pretty disappointing I think, especially when it didn't need to be. Wolfgang could be a pretty interesting character but he just doesn't have a lot of new things going for him to keep him interesting 

[HowlVoid]

Yes, for one piggyback and marble suit perks need to be passed on to normal Wolfgang too and lose them only in wimpy.

He has all that muscle but he's just Wilson? Doesn't make sense. 

You are right about the limit thing, so it's not really that easy for them to just stuff him full of irrelevant perks when he is supposed to be just a fighting character. The speed + power combo was very simple but it was actually very unique to him where all characters have one or the other, but not both. This led to Wolfgang being able to use speed as an utility where most couldn't, like tier 3 shadow rook without a road and being able to get by without a walking cane or magi to dodge hits. I can understand them wanting to make speed more of a exploration based perk instead of a combat one. 

Then the answer may lie in Wanda and how they substituted dodging speed with i-frames. Backstep watch isn't perfect, but hey, it's there and its an option where the alternative is for there to be none at all (like current Wolfgang). 

So how can Wolfgang get some utility back without giving the speed back. Although I'd also like a way to momentarily halt or slow the meter down. Not sure how much development time the devs will allow themselves for possible ideas. I think it's safe to start with ones that just requires changes in the code.

The dumbbells lose so much durability when used to attack, 10% is so bad.

If the stone slabs are comparable to boards then the golden and gem dumbbells are just worse boomerangs for gathering morsels. 

Silk and gold are similarly easy to gather in bulk, but purple gems aren't (in the early game).

[JustExo]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

So how can Wolfgang get some utility back without giving the speed back. Although I'd also like a way to momentarily halt or slow the meter down. Not sure how much development time the devs will allow themselves for possible ideas. I think it's safe to start with ones that just requires changes in the code.

The dumbbells lose so much durability when used to attack, 10% is so bad.

I definitely appreciate that klei made mining/chopping things better when mighty, that gives him some degree of utility outside of combat which is nice, but ultimately I don't think its enough to make him interesting in and of itself.

I think adding bonus effects to different gembell types would be cool so long as they aren't just things like increasing sanity or increasing might.

Gems are known to have different affects associated with them, so having different dumbbells that apply different buffs would be a cool feature

Like a blue gem inflicting a freeze affect like what Walter's freeze rounds or the ice staff does

Yellow gem creating a small light radius around Wolfgang similar to WX when he's overcharged

Purple gems could spawn a friendly nightmare creature when your sanity is low

Green gems have a bigger aoe when they're thrown and deal more damage 

Orange gems could give you a teleport yo wherever the gembell lands when thrown

Red gem could increase max health for an amount of time, or decrease damage received

Iridescent gems could just be insanely good and have no durability but be as effective as gold gems or something

These can help a lot to shift up Wolfgang's priorities, and give you something to aim for in that down time, as well as provide interesting items for him to use

 

(All of these with an increase in durability when thrown please and thank you)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 hours ago, Lex the Grim said:

Instead of just making it mighty = access to his perks, give his other forms interesting changes: 1.25 damage multiplier in average form and nothing else (similar to wig but he doesn't have the inbuilt lifesteal, damage reduction, or access to songs so her niche is still preserved); his current mighty stays the same; and maybe, in Wimpy form, the nerfs it normally has but also: Da da da daaaa, maybe his speed back?

i see this suggestion repeated in other topics and i dont like it

the same way young and middle age wanda shouldnt be as strong as they ara, wolfgang shouldnt be rewarded for not maintaining mighty form

[JustExo]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i see this suggestion repeated in other topics and i dont like it

the same way young and middle age wanda shouldnt be as strong as they ara, wolfgang shouldnt be rewarded for not maintaining mighty form

Age is something that you passively get as Wanda, and even then there are downsides to being old that are present with her, as well as upsides with the younger ages. Overall there's still reason for you to be young, but more of an incentive in certain scenarios to be old

Wolfgang however has no incentive to be anything but mighty, which he has to actively work for in the form of working out which is already seen by a lot of players as tedious. 

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Age is something that you passively get as Wanda, and even then there are downsides to being old that are present with her, as well as upsides with the younger ages. Overall there's still reason for you to be young, but more of an incentive in certain scenarios to be old

Wolfgang however has no incentive to be anything but mighty, which he has to actively work for in the form of working out which is already seen by a lot of players as tedious. 

Not sure if it works the same on PC or not but there is a noticeable difference between wood chopping speed with Young Wanda Vs Old Wanda, you essentially trade faster wood gathering for more damage while at deaths door step.