The argument for a speed boost is being countered with an incorrect premise.

[Masked Koopa]

I think it's well worth pointing out that the most vocal proponents of a speed boost are by no means bad players - the entire reason the perk is held near and dear to many is that it allows thresholds that otherwise require largely time-gated items to obtain. While damage is obviously nothing to sneeze at, it's not something a diehard Wolfgang player is actually going to need, and I'd be very surprised if it's not possible to reach a compromise with said players on a reduction in the power of mighty mode in exchange for speed.

It's also pretty important to point out that Wolfgang is a longstanding character, who's had this speed for a good long while. While Wolfgang as a brand new character would likely not have the speed, he's been around for enough time that removing it now doesn't feel like a correction, it feels like a feature being taken away. 

And this wouldn't even be so bad if the rework had introduced other facets to his character. While I'm sure it would still upset some players, it would at least leave an interesting character in place of  the old wolfgang if the content introduced had given him a bunch of new features to play around with - but this just isn't the case. This is the first character refresh where all the content has essentially just been a nerf + a moving of a mechanic to a different feature. And what makes it worse is that wolfgang had very little to his name in the first place - wigfrid was already a much, MUCH more potent team player than wolfgang could have ever been, and wolf was pretty much only relegated to solo players or people who enjoy going off on their own to do difficult tasks for their team. Wolfgang has been made notably worse at the latter, and has gained nothing for the former. He's a worse team player than before, as he now has to use much more useful resources than food to build up mightiness, and to make matters worse, he can't even use his mightiness to offset this resource loss the way he could by killing enemies with his strength.

I'll gladly concede that wolfgang was too powerful before the rework, but the same argument can just as easily be made for the current wolfgang. What makes wolfgang an unreasonable presence in your average scenario is that he saves practically all resources in a fight. He's still killing everything twice as fast in half the hits, but now he's able to be pushed less far by those who previously could use his speed benchmark for good kiting. If anything needed a nerf, it was his damage and/or weapons working on a per hit basis instead of a damage dealt one. 

And it's a real shame too, because this rework could have easily gone in a direction of allowing wolfgang to train specific stats instead of just damage - perhaps you can divide your training between speed, damage resist, and damage? With things like a treadmill, a punching bag, etc depending on what stat you want to train, and with the mobile versions being things like a skipping rope (for example).

It also would have been nice to see other characters be able to use the handheld barbells on the lowest stage for a bit of extra damage, or some sort of passive he gives by being near his team. Hell, make it so he builds wigfrid's inspiration if he fights with her. There's a lot of room for much more interesting and new mechanics with this rework, and I'm sure you'd get a much more understanding stance from those who want his old playstyle back, because at least then the rework would be more than some strange attempt to nerf him. 

[Ohan]

4 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I'll gladly concede that wolfgang was too powerful before the rework, but the same argument can just as easily be made for the current wolfgang

You say this but are suprised that some things were taken away but not replaced by things that are just as strong? This is usually what happens if the goal is to reduce power. 

And then u continue by saying new wolf is just as powerful, well which one is it? Is new wolf doodoo or too powerful? 

4 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

If anything needed a nerf, it was his damage and/or weapons working on a per hit basis instead of a damage dealt one. 

Nerf the damage of the character whos entire premise and reason for existing is to be the ‘Strongman’... in favor of speed...

we have several characters now who have speed as a cornerstone in their kit but only wolfgang can deal double damage at a cost that is more easily fulfilled than spicy voltgoat chaudfroid against a wet target or wanda with all her quirks.

4 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Wolfgang has been made notably worse at the latter, and has gained nothing for the former.

Constant x2 damage that can be easily maintained without the need to eat honey every 5 seconds is not nothing... In addition to a playstyle that is much more interesting and nuanced and in line with the rest of the cast instead of just being a bundle of stats with a hungry stomach that bulldozes the game with very little effort. 

Spoiler

I thought id add what additions would be more interesting imo and add new stuff to wolf instead of just speed back: 

add more utility to mighty form like forceful tool swings that eat durability but chop/mine/hammer faster. Slow down or even slowly increase mightiness while doing tool tasks. Better dumbell throws and tuning. A use for potato sacks like potato exclusive storage container with very slow spoilage. A showmanship aspect to his gym where he raises the sanity of onlookers in relation to the heaviness of his weights. 

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

36 minutes ago, Ohan said:

You say this but are suprised that some things were taken away but not replaced by things that are just as strong? This is usually what happens if the goal is to reduce power. 

And then u continue by saying new wolf is just as powerful, well which one is it? Is new wolf doodoo or too powerful? 

Nerf the damage of the character whos entire premise and reason for existing is to be the ‘Strongman’... in favor of speed...

we have several characters now who have speed as a cornerstone in their kit but only wolfgang can deal double damage at a cost that is more easily fulfilled than spicy voltgoat chaudfroid against a wet target or wanda with all her quirks.

Constant x2 damage that can be easily maintained without the need to eat honey every 5 seconds is not nothing... In addition to a playstyle that is much more interesting and nuanced and in line with the rest of the cast than just being a bundle of stats with a hungry stomach that bulldozes the game with very little effort. 

  Hide contents

I thought id add what additions would be more interesting imo and add new stuff to wolf instead of just speed back: 

add more utility to mighty form like forceful tool swings that eat durability but chop/mine/hammer faster. Slow down or even slowly increase mightiness while doing tool tasks. Better dumbell throws and tuning. A use for potato sacks like potato exclusive storage container with very slow spoilage. A showmanship aspect to his gym where he raises the sanity of onlookers in relation to the heaviness of his weights. 

 

If you played with a friend you'd basically have wolf damage and still all your other interesting character quirks.  Lifting weights isn't fun nor more intuitive than collecting up food to eat while fighting especially since healing items in the form of food exists.

The whole premise of Wolfgang is the power of two people packed into one man and he had to eat like two people too

Wolfgang the resource dump that had to work with haste to make up for his fuel cost in order to achieve his buffs and increased stats.

Mighty was always the Wolfgang goal it held your damage, it held you increased HP pool, and it had utility with it's speed buff.

Normal form had no buffs he was just a regular Wilson, that starved faster, with +50 hp, and a increased sanity drain

Wimpy form is suppose to be terrible it's what you wanna avoid because Wolfgang is literally wasting away in this form his damage would drop until it reaches to half, he ran 10% slower so he couldn't escape and he slowly lost his extra HP pool. The only advantage was that he could heal more efficiently in this form.

His whole character revolved around the fact that he is an absolute UNIT of a man, that when not properly taken care of, wasted away into a sad string, he isn't meant to play passively, he was suppose to deal with tasks that would in general put other survivors at risk.  He isn't smart to build complex contraptions to aid in survival or had cool mechanics unique to only him.  He was just strong in his stats, his body, himself. Most others with abit of ingenuity would accomplish everything he can do. But Wolfgang can't do what other characters have uniquely tied to only them.

 

[Mike23Ua]

Considering that there are several factors about this rework that just aren’t adding up (including the teaser image from last month, a leaked skin for Antlion Boulders, AND an animated loading screen from RWYS where Wolfgang is carrying mighty large potato in his hand in front of him…) I would wager to say that what your playing in Beta isn’t EVERYTHING he’s going to be able to do: Even Wendy’s Beta build did not include EVERYTHING she was able to do.. right?

Klei probably has great reasoning behind the removal of the speed buff, for starters it was something he was never intended to have to begin with, secondly they want him portrayed as the STRONGMAN and Not Speedy Gonzales, I believe people are upset with losing the speed because there simply isn’t anything better to do in Mighty mode that he wasn’t doing already..

Like most Wolfgang mains feel this is a nerf instead of new content: And if all he is getting is Dumbell tossing while in Mighty mode I’m inclined to agree: I expected things like being able to Merm punch rocks or to casually carry around an Antlion Boulder while not having to lose the backpack, the Boulder of course acting as a “feat of great might” so he doesn’t lose Mightiness carrying it around. 
 

But for now: it feels like he lost something and what he already had is now locked away behind progress- But for people to say they’ll take the speed over being Mighty…. We’re they REALLY wanting to be the MIGHTY Wolfgang.. or did they just want to “Go Fast”?

[Masked Koopa]

36 minutes ago, Ohan said:

You say this but are suprised that some things were taken away but not replaced by things that are just as strong? This is usually what happens if the goal is to reduce power. 

And then u continue by saying new wolf is just as powerful, well which one is it? Is new wolf doodoo or too powerful? 

The new Wolfgang has the same broken attributes, but has lost a tool that could be used effectively by players who are more seasoned. A less experienced player isn't going to be able to kite significantly more effectively with his old speed boost, but the damage still made it unreasonably cheap to just hold f on most enemies. 

It's also rarely a good idea to only take away when trying to reduce the power of something. Generally speaking, the aim of a nerf should be to reduce what made them unreasonable, while compensating in other areas that leave the character interesting, but much less overwhelming. The speed was not what was unreasonable about Wolfgang, because said speed came at a notable cost, and was entirely within reasonable bounds. The damage, on the other hand, turns the base spear into something as powerful as a darksword, and gives it 50 more uses to boot.

42 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Nerf the damage of the character whos entire premise and reason for existing is to be the ‘Strongman’... in favor of speed...

we have several characters now who have speed as a cornerstone in their kit but only wolfgang can deal double damage at a cost that is more easily fulfilled than spicy voltgoat chaudfroid against a wet target or wanda with all her quirks.

Part of his premise is also that he's meant to be a coward, and yet the change to his sanity drain can only be described as going from unnoticeable to miniscule. The cornerstone of Wolfgang has always been the ability to tackle more difficult challenges in exchange for a greater resource cost. In theory. The part where this fell apart was that his damage and effective tool durability saving meant he was just far and beyond the most powerful combatant in all areas. And the thing is he kind of has to be multifaceted in some regard, especially if he's going to stand out as an interesting character. Woodie was a lumberjack, and yet he was given forms that relate to combat and speed/ocean traversal. Willow was a pyromaniac, and was given a giant bear monster. Warly was a fussy chef turned into a magic food making wizard who can give you superpowers. Winona was turned from someone who abhors any sort of DIY work into a mechanic that can whip up machines out of nowhere. Wes was turned into someone able to make magic balloon items to support his team. I'd say the closest we got to characters remaining faithful to their original premise was a living plant, a spider boy, and a girl with a ghost for a sister. The first two are extremely easy potentials to lean into because they create interest just by virtue of changing how you interact with plants/spiders (plus wormwood already having a buuunch of perks helped). So that leaves wendy, who was pretty much just flat out buffed, with her damage downside being all but removed.

It would be one thing if Wolfgang had gotten a bunch of interesting new mechanics to go along with his strongman concept, or if the main nerfs had been in relation to his fear of monsters. Maybe he could have taken more damage/dealt less to nightmares. Maybe a monster hitting him would do extra damage, or lower his mighty-meter. I don't know. But as it stands, it takes the most overwhelming part of his kit, and removes one of the perks that made him at least have some sort of role in a multiplayer environment as the early rusher for experienced players.

56 minutes ago, Ohan said:

 

  Hide contents

I thought id add what additions would be more interesting imo and add new stuff to wolf instead of just speed back: 

add more utility to mighty form like forceful tool swings that eat durability but chop/mine/hammer faster. Slow down or even slowly increase mightiness while doing tool tasks. Better dumbell throws and tuning. A use for potato sacks like potato exclusive storage container with very slow spoilage. A showmanship aspect to his gym where he raises the sanity of onlookers in relation to the heaviness of his weights. 

 

I mean yeah, there's no absolute right way to change him, all I'm doing is spitballing here, really. I think there's a bit of a concern with him intruding on the role of woodie or wurt or maxwell if he starts working faster though, even if it's an obvious idea. Dumbell throwing is interesting in concept, but feels a little too close to walter for comfort. I think if they were to hone in on throwing attacks, it would be much more interesting if he could toss large carriables. The sanity gain thing sounds neat, although the sanity game's getting a little crowded what with walter, wes and wendy all having different AOE sanity perks.

[Ohan]

5 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

If you played with a friend you'd basically have wolf damage and still all your other interesting character quirks.  Lifting weights isn't fun nor more intuitive than collecting up food to eat while fighting especially since healing items in the form of food exists.

How would what u said be any different for old wolf though? Thats arguing that wolf is just plain useless in multiplayer setting which he is not. U can neutralize any characters perks by just adding more wilsons idk if this is a fruitful comparison to make. If u play with a friend and one of u picks wolfgang u have triple damage in addition to the quirks of the other character? Also wolf can go do double damage things while his friend does something completely else instead of needing the two wilsons (or who ever) in ur example to be next to each for every fight with double the combat gear than 1 wolf. 

We’ve been over the second thing already i think. To me periodically engaging with the rythm game and upkeeping mightiness with dumbells if u need it is more fun than eating meatballs to immediately unlock (fluctuating) double damage, walking cane speed and 300 hp. 

Im sure u know old wolf couldnt just upkeep (near) constant x2 with healing food alone, especially not large healing stuff like pierogi. for longer fights ud need a stack of small snacks to munch on every few seconds. That old playstyle quirk has been transmuted in maintaining moderately high hunger to keep mightiness from plummeting fast. 

Personally Im just more interested in going forward and building on top of the changes klei has made instead of petitioning to go backwards to a less nuanced product.

As someone who plays a bunch of wicker i think the split of applied hort into Abridged and Silviculture was also a good change for the game even though it was a nerf without receiving something of equil value back, where old wolf bulldozed combat, old hort ‘bulldozed’ food gathering. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

11 minutes ago, Ohan said:

 Thats arguing that wolf is just plain useless in multiplayer setting which he is not. U can neutralize any characters perks by just adding more wilsons idk if this is a fruitful comparison to make. 

I'd like to see an army of Wilson's try to tame merms or spiders, or fight a whole army of swarm units, or read magic books, or turn into werebeavers, or summon shadow workers, or teleport, or steal souls, or have a dead sister. I mean the list just goes on and on. All these characters have more to them that makes them unique than just their one quirk.  Wolf is just straight up damage something offset by working as a team.

His whole appeal was that he didn't need a team to assist in fights but he couldn't exactly do anything more unique, he just needed to get more resources to gain boosts for himself to have more potential while everyone else actually contributes a skill 

(I've got a rework for wormwood he doesn't farm any better or affects crops now he is motionless until spring where he blooms feet, and as an offset for losing his farming abilities he can eat literal manure for food now but it doesn't give his 2hp)

[GenomeSquirrel]

1 hour ago, Masked Koopa said:

It's also pretty important to point out that Wolfgang is a longstanding character, who's had this speed for a good long while. While Wolfgang as a brand new character would likely not have the speed, he's been around for enough time that removing it now doesn't feel like a correction, it feels like a feature being taken away. 

Remember how long it took them to fix Willow and Woodie? That their next plan, forge and gorge, was giving everyone a new set of perks in basically a different game, and they only came around to fixing this game after that plan failed.

1 hour ago, Masked Koopa said:

And this wouldn't even be so bad if the rework had introduced other facets to his character.

Why would you add to a character that already has more than most characters? Everything Wilson can do, Wolfgang does equally well if not better; but Wofgang came out with easy speed, more HP, and more damage. No goat farming and restricted diet like Warly. No king building and restricted diet like Wurt. No healing restriction and growth formula like Wormwood. He gets a mix of all of these just for needing more food, when berries, carrots, spiders, pigs, mushrooms, cactuses are plentiful.

1 hour ago, Masked Koopa said:

but now he's able to be pushed less far by those who previously could use his speed benchmark for good kiting

you did an excellent job of not directly mentioning that it's EASIER kiting, that in general scenarios he has a wider window to dodge hits than most characters, and he's no fragile speedster to compensate, he has above average HP and double damage.

1 hour ago, Masked Koopa said:

I'll gladly concede that wolfgang was too powerful before the rework, but the same argument can just as easily be made for the current wolfgang. What makes wolfgang an unreasonable presence in your average scenario is that he saves practically all resources in a fight. He's still killing everything twice as fast in half the hits, but now he's able to be pushed less far by those who previously could use his speed benchmark for good kiting. If anything needed a nerf, it was his damage and/or weapons working on a per hit basis instead of a damage dealt one. 

 

1 hour ago, Masked Koopa said:

And what makes it worse is that wolfgang had very little to his name in the first place - wigfrid was already a much, MUCH more potent team player than wolfgang could have ever been, and wolf was pretty much only relegated to solo players or people who enjoy going off on their own to do difficult tasks for their team. Wolfgang has been made notably worse at the latter, and has gained nothing for the former. He's a worse team player than before, as he now has to use much more useful resources than food to build up mightiness, and to make matters worse, he can't even use his mightiness to offset this resource loss the way he could by killing enemies with his strength.

 

These are duplicitous

[Ohan]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I'd like to see an army of Wilson's try to tame merms or spiders, or fight a whole army of swarm units, or read magic books, or turn into werebeavers, or summon shadow workers, or teleport, or steal souls, or have a dead sister. I mean the list just goes on and on. All these characters have more to them that makes them unique than just their one quirk.  Wolf is just straight up damage something offset by working as a team.

All those things can be offset too by just more laboring hands. I dont really want to list them all off and we can agree to disagree but just as an example,

Spoiler

u dont need to befriend merms or spiders if u have a bunch of wilsons to chop/mine/fight and u dont need silviculture to gather twigs and grass when u have multiple hands gathering these things across the map. U also dont need to teleport to the ruins when someone else can do that while you do something else.

Perks are just shortcuts to certain things and wolfs shortcut has always been damage, hes a simple character by nature of being one of the first and having no restrictive downsides. 

[Mike23Ua]

Please for the love all things sane.. please do NOT compare Reworked characters to characters who have yet to be reworked: Want proof? fine- Willow got reworked and got Bernie a Teddy bear she has ALWAYS had in her character select screen from the original Dont Starve… Wolfgang got Dumbells that look Identical to the ones he now has within the game… Wilson will absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt get science beakers and experiment on small birds.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

28 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

and yet the change to his sanity drain can only be described as going from unnoticeable to miniscule

losing as much sanity as a tam might not be the hardest downside but changes your way of approaching certain situation which was what we wanted for wolfgang

[Masked Koopa]

4 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Remember how long it took them to fix Willow and Woodie? That their next plan, forge and gorge, was giving everyone a new set of perks in basically a different game, and they only came around to fixing this game after that plan failed.

Nope, no clue, I wasn't around for that. Sounds like they should have been fixed sooner, but I can't say I see how that relates, truth be told. The current trend of reworks is to add brand new features to a character if their core premise presumably didn't seem to be enough.

5 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Why would you add to a character that already has more than most characters? Everything Wilson can do, Wolfgang does equally well if not better; but Wofgang came out with easy speed, more HP, and more damage. No goat farming and restricted diet like Warly. No king building and restricted diet like Wurt. No healing restriction and growth formula like Wormwood. He gets a mix of all of these just for needing more food, when berries, carrots, spiders, pigs, mushrooms, cactuses are plentiful.

Not having downsides doesn't really translate to having a lot, in many ways it gives a character less because it ensures they're not going to be forced into some unconventional playstyles. In addition, characters are generally given perks to offset their downside in some way that plays toward what makes their approach different. Like Wurt getting 33% extra from veggies and fruit, Wigfrid being more able to do combat to attain the meat she needs, Warly having an easy way to make crock pot dishes on the go, Wormwood being able to heal with resources also used for farming, and gain sanity by planting the results of his wanton plant destruction. He really only looks amazing compared to Wilson, who is both the baseline character, and also a character that hasn't had his rework yet. That isn't to say he had no uses, but his use was extremely specific to a fault.

9 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

you did an excellent job of not directly mentioning that it's EASIER kiting, that in general scenarios he has a wider window to dodge hits than most characters, and he's no fragile speedster to compensate, he has above average HP and double damage.

A character making it easier to kite doesn't translate to them being more powerful in the hands of anyone who has issues kiting to begin with. Ultimately, the main reason the loss of speed is being lamented to begin with is because it allowed certain benchmarks to be hit without time-gated events such as mactusk, or out-of-the-way things like the magiluminesence or growth formula. My main point was that the speed was a useful tool for the experienced player, but not the thing that made him overwhelming in the eyes of many.

12 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

These are duplicitous

I'm going to assume you meant contradictory, and you're not calling me deceitful.

The difference in perspective there is down to a difference in context. In a solo or 2 or possibly even 3 player context, wolf is extremely powerful, and arguably overpowered. To me the main issue was just the effective resource saving, but you're going to get all types of answer there. For me personally, I would have changed weapons to take durability based on damage dealt rather than times used, similar to armour.

However, in a wider team context, the additional player's worth of damage isn't really going to be the defining factor for a character's usefulness. Ones that allow your entire team to be more effective like wigfrid's helmets and songs, warly's buffs, wortox's healing, wendy's crowd control, end up being much more useful, as a wolfgang would just be adding another player to an equation where the main factor is how consistently you can keep your ragtag group of new and/or casual players equipped and alive for a given fight.

In late game play, meanwhile, QOL or long term perks like wurt's fish conservation for thermal fish, maxwell's shadow diggers and miners, warly's more expensive dishes, end up being much more helpful than anything wolf could bring to the table.

That's kind of why to me additional perks are a must - in a single player context, wolfgang had plenty of resources to do what he wanted unreasonably easy. But in a multiplayer context he was just another mouth to feed who can't give his team any sort of direct support. And I don't think this rework changes that.

[Cloakingsumo198]

The perks of the character is literally why people choose to be anybody aside from Wilson, so what is the purpose of making borish characters, if you don't enjoy the wolfgang experience don't try to dumb him down when you don't care about how his gameplay used to be since for the most part you don't try to replicate his old gameplay loop which is what most reworks respect of their character.

New Wolfgang is dollar store discount knock off for people that weren't even interested in him before most just wanted him nerfed the only arguments for his changes is that they are at least a new coat of paint when it's practically the same but worse

41 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

losing as much sanity as a tam might not be the hardest downside but changes your way of approaching certain situation which was what we wanted for wolfgang

How is this changing Wolfgang's approach he is just going to need fight his sanity monsters more which most Wolfgang's don't care about.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

How is this changing Wolfgang's approach he is just going to need fight his sanity monsters more which most Wolfgang's don't care about.

you cant be full sanity by just using a tam which affects in harder fights even with a x2 damage character or sailong. Or do you love having shadows while kiting DF? 

seems a small thing but changes things a little which, imo, is what matters about upsides and downsids

[Cloakingsumo198]

16 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

you cant be full sanity by just using a tam which affects in harder fights even with a x2 damage character or sailong. Or do you love having shadows while kiting DF? 

seems a small thing but changes things a little which, imo, is what matters about upsides and downsids

Wolfgang has no problems with shadows tho he 3 shots or 4 shots them you only need to kill 2 terror beaks at 0 sanity to recover and this isn't even a new thing to him Wolfgang was always suppose to be a target for sanity loss it isn't something new.  It's the same concept with Wolfgang ignoring speed loss from heavy gear, he already had that ability technically it's not even new either yet people hound it off as amazing or innovative when it's not it comes off cheap knock off to original Wolfgang players who were hoping for more ways to utilize his strength than just hitting hard and running fast.

Downsides aren't added to just balance or weaken your survivor, they add character to your survivor, they act as would be guidelines of how your character generally plays, and they correspond with that characters upsides as well.

Wendy is weaker as she is suppose to rely on her sister

Wortox recieves less healing and food points from food cause he is a literal soul sucker.

[Mike23Ua]

I keep throwing out the suggestion to let Wolfgang have back his Speed Buff but, remove his ability to use additional items to increase that speed to insanely broken levels.. if a Non-Wolfgang using a Walking Cane can match him in Speed.. he won’t feel As broken as he has..

The problem isn’t his speed.. or his double damage, it’s that all that STACKED with additional speed buffs to reach impossible levels of “go fast” 

No character in the game except for the ones literally designed with their playstyle being “go fast” could possibly match him in speed: In Multiplayer he was always out running all the other players, always outdoing all the other players I personally found it hard to play the game at all with my friend if he picks Wolfgang because other characters simply can’t keep up with him..

It gets WORSE once that Wolfgang gets his hands on speed buffing gear like Walking Cane..

And because he does more damage he was finishing all encounters faster then anyone else already anyway.

THAT is probably why they removed his Speed..

They even tried to penalize him for not staying near other survivors by making him deal less damage to shadows when by himself and deal more if near to others (you can’t compare how it works in rushed beta to how it was intended at full release)

JoeW even said to expect bugs because they weren’t expecting to HAVE a beta..

I think however that if Wolfgang couldn’t ever get any additional speed past his own physical feats: That it would balance itself out because he would literally just be like a built in Walking Cane and once other characters got a Cane they can match him in Speed.

Wolfgang himself would refuse to use anything other then his own legs to go fast.

Its literally like telling an Olympic Jogger they can use a Lamborghini in a leg race.. WHY would they want a car over a nice leg workout?

[GenomeSquirrel]

19 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Not having downsides doesn't really translate to having a lot, in many ways it gives a character less because it ensures they're not going to be forced into some unconventional playstyles. In addition, characters are generally given perks to offset their downside in some way that plays toward what makes their approach different. Like Wurt getting 33% extra from veggies and fruit, Wigfrid being more able to do combat to attain the meat she needs, Warly having an easy way to make crock pot dishes on the go, Wormwood being able to heal with resources also used for farming, and gain sanity by planting the results of his wanton plant destruction. He really only looks amazing compared to Wilson, who is both the baseline character, and also a character that hasn't had his rework yet. That isn't to say he had no uses, but his use was extremely specific to a fault.

My question was "Why would you add to a character that already has more than most characters?" Not please deflect the conversation from the multiple benefits Wolfgang enjoys without penalties has to justifying actual the downsides on the characters that actually downsides. 

30 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

A character making it easier to kite doesn't translate to them being more powerful in the hands of anyone who has issues kiting to begin with. Ultimately, the main reason the loss of speed is being lamented to begin with is because it allowed certain benchmarks to be hit without time-gated events such as mactusk, or out-of-the-way things like the magiluminesence or growth formula. My main point was that the speed was a useful tool for the experienced player, but not the thing that made him overwhelming in the eyes of many.

Why minimize in terms of low skilled players? 

Why is Wolfgang entitled to exceed "certain benchmarks"? Other characters enjoy those items, why give him better stats and easier access to even better stats? He doesn't sacrifice much to get them.

32 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I'm going to assume you meant contradictory, and you're not calling me deceitful.

To be blunt, reading this is setting off my deception alarms, lots of material omissions, deflection.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

9 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

My question was "Why would you add to a character that already has more than most characters?" Not please deflect the conversation from the multiple benefits Wolfgang enjoys without penalties has to justifying actual the downsides on the characters that actually downsides. 

Why minimize in terms of low skilled players? 

Why is Wolfgang entitled to exceed "certain benchmarks"? Other characters enjoy those items, why give him better stats and easier access to even better stats? He doesn't sacrifice much to get them.

To be blunt, reading this is setting off my deception alarms, lots of material omissions, deflection.

 

I really can't tell if you are speaking about old or new Wolfgang.

Wolfgang has better stats than other characters because he is meant the big healthy strongman. That is also why he does 2x damage when meeting his requirements.

Wolfgang does have downsides they just don't come into play because any good Wolfgang completely circumvents them

Wimpy form is a downside it sucks in every way possible, it's meant to be avoided at all costs and is suppose to be a death sentence for a Wolfgang caught in it, the sanity loss increase is a flavor downside to fit in with his character.

Old Wolfgang stats had 300 hunger which was effectively lower than 300 because of his huge hunger drain. It was so big because that is what determined his mighty form.

200 sanity is normal but he also has effectively less than 200 because it ALSO drains faster

Back then 300 HP while mighty, 200 HP while normal, now a normal capped 200 hp Wolfgang is a combat class he was meant to get hit + he is an absolute unit so of course higher HP pool.

Wolfgang exceeds in these aspects because without them he has nothing else.  He doesn't have unique abilities (extra damage isn't really unique), he doesn't build unique structures for his team, he doesn't completely flip the gameplay loop like the monster survivors,  everything is tied to Wolfgang's abilities as the player themselves (better stats, more damage, some utility) utilizing his buffs to go beyond the normal survivor.

[mr. brj]

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

My question was "Why would you add to a character that already has more than most characters?"

Correct me if I'm wrong my friend, but ever since the update dropped, I have been seeing you mostly pointing out how the old Wolfgang had unneccessarily strong perks. My intentions are not to disrespect you or your opinions, but could you please tell us how this is a problem? Does Wolfgang having these perks impact the gaming experience negatively? And would anything change for your gaming experience if Wolfgang wasn't nerfed?

I, and pretty sure most of us, agree that the old Wolfgang didn't need any more advantages and only needed some tweaking, but nerfing this character will affect the gaming experience of those negatively, who have been actively trying to make their concerns and complaints be heard to the developer team during the last couple of days. And with all due respect, I can't see how your replies are encouraging a constructive discussion between the both sides. We all want a rework, we all want it to be good, and we all trust Klei in this. If you think that the new Wolfgang is better, then please share your feedback based on your own experience, not by criticizing people for enjoying the old experience or by complaining about the design of an unreworked character.

Again, I don't mean any disrespect to you or your opinions, but I honestly see no reason for all this hate against something people enjoyed.

[reallychina]

the speed nerf while mighty is reasonable, it was way too easy to fight bosses like that.

 

he should get the max old speed bonus as flat rate when in normal form, incentivizing use of both forms and even a 1.5x speed when wimpy but with a major downside of not being able to use any armor

 

mobility was a big reason why wolfgang was useful AND fun to play

[Masked Koopa]

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

My question was "Why would you add to a character that already has more than most characters?" Not please deflect the conversation from the multiple benefits Wolfgang enjoys without penalties has to justifying actual the downsides on the characters that actually downsides. 

My answer was that you're overselling the value of downsides in minimizing the benefits of a character. Wolfgang's downside was consuming more food than your average character in all stages, and his perks were very much single-player centric in that they, as I explained, have greatly reduced usefulness in a multiplayer environment. To make it clear: My answer is I don't think wolfgang had more than most characters. Plain and simple. He had good fighting capability, but provided absolutely zero team support, and is more trouble than he is worth late game, given the hunger ends up being not worth the dps boost, especially when you start setting up minions and/or houndius/catapults for fights.

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Why minimize in terms of low skilled players? 

Because they are the demographic of concern when it comes to unbalanced facets of the game. An experienced player can and will easily overcome the game's challenges with or without a tool you give them. It just so happens that this tool enabled a lot of play that people enjoyed. I'm sure if klei added Wheeler or gave wormwood an easy way to bloom ASAP to compensate for wolfgang losing the speed trait, you'd see a lot less complaining from that crowd - because they're not relying on the power of a character, they're trying to use the given tools to do things earlier, as a challenge to themselves.

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Why is Wolfgang entitled to exceed "certain benchmarks"? Other characters enjoy those items, why give him better stats and easier access to even better stats? He doesn't sacrifice much to get them.

The concern here for people isn't wolfgang specifically - it's the ability to access those benchmarks in a timely manner. The people who want wolfgang's speed beyond just as a kneejerk reaction to his nerf want it because they're able to perform very specific kiting patterns with it. And well, the truth is not much has changed on this front with the rework to begin with. It's hardly more difficult to gain the power than before. Why not make him actually sacrifice something, instead of removing a facet of his character?

 

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

To be blunt, reading this is setting off my deception alarms, lots of material omissions, deflection.

I was giving you an out there mate. Instead of immediately assuming I'm trying to trick you like some sort of wolfgang demon, why not ask me about you concerns instead of throwing out accusations? Some of the things I think are implied may not be clear to you or others, and that's fine. Doesn't mean I'm trying to trick you. I don't even like Wolfgang much myself, so if the speed boost goes it ain't any skin off my back. If you have a concern about what I'm saying, then bring up your counterpoints, don't just call people deceitful, makes you look like a jerk.

[GenomeSquirrel]

59 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

Correct me if I'm wrong my friend, but ever since the update dropped, I have been seeing you mostly pointing out how the old Wolfgang had unneccessarily strong perks. My intentions are not to disrespect you or your opinions, but could you please tell us how this is a problem? Does Wolfgang having these perks impact the gaming experience negatively? And would anything change for your gaming experience if Wolfgang wasn't nerfed?

I, and pretty sure most of us, agree that the old Wolfgang didn't need any more advantages and only needed some tweaking, but nerfing this character will affect the gaming experience of those negatively, who have been actively trying to make their concerns and complaints be heard to the developer team during the last couple of days. And with all due respect, I can't see how your replies are encouraging a constructive discussion between the both sides. We all want a rework, we all want it to be good, and we all trust Klei in this. If you think that the new Wolfgang is better, then please share your feedback based on your own experience, not by criticizing people for enjoying the old experience or by complaining about the design of an unreworked character.

Again, I don't mean any disrespect to you or your opinions, but I honestly see no reason for all this hate against something people enjoyed.

While you may see my approach as unconstructive, I view many of Wolfgang's speed supporters as bad faith arguers, willingly blind to the fact that other characters put time and effort into equivalent perks Wolfgang can use day 1, and unwilling to accept an equivalent bitter downside in return. I don't think the conversation will move forward without people people suggesting sacrifices, and I am much more neutral to something like Wolfgang can have his speed, but his backback slot is gone, and he may no longer open or carry hutch/chester. (this is quick and not thought out, obviously there may be some horrible disruption managing armor, weapon, weather item, light; and I would enjoy the newness of not knowing how to compensate more than the speed itself)

I'm also very sympathetic to anti gym sentiments, I think complete portability might fix it

 

 

[SecretPizzaMan]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Please for the love all things sane.. please do NOT compare Reworked characters to characters who have yet to be reworked: Want proof? fine- Willow got reworked and got Bernie a Teddy bear she has ALWAYS had in her character select screen from the original Dont Starve… Wolfgang got Dumbells that look Identical to the ones he now has within the game… Wilson will absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt get science beakers and experiment on small birds.

Wx might get modules? Wickerbottom gets a new ability: The shush.

A portable chair for Maxwell?

[mr. brj]

54 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

While you may see my approach as unconstructive, I view many of Wolfgang's speed supporters as bad faith arguers, willingly blind to the fact that other characters put time and effort into equivalent perks Wolfgang can use day 1, and unwilling to accept an equivalent bitter downside in return.

Doesn't that roughly translate to asking people to enjoy the game the same way you enjoy it? I understand where you are coming from, but as I said before, if people enjoyed playing the old Wolfgang, why take his major perks away? This doesn't make any sense in a game like DST.

 

54 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

this is quick and not thought out, obviously there may be some horrible disruption managing armor, weapon, weather item, light

No worries, I get what you meant. This is why we have these discussions here, to find solutions to the existing and the new problems. I just wanted you to consider that we are demanding for the old playstyle to stay in some way or another not because we are close-minded to other playstyles or other challenges, but rather because we liked the challenges we could create for ourselves while playing the old Wolfgang or because we simply liked playing a strong character that had an advantage over others in the early game.

[Toroic]

These discussions often have two general camps of very vocal people.

1) People who only played Wolfgang for the mechancial power, so they don’t care that Wolfgang’s mechanics are more engaging now because a character having fun mechanics is irrelevant to how they choose a survivor.

2) People who didn’t play Wolf before, won’t play them now, and see his only value being having a speed boost to be able to take fights early without rushing magi or waiting for a cane.

It’s absolutely true that Wolf is worse for boss-rushing now because if you can kite perfectly or nearly perfectly you didn’t need his damage in the first place, so the challenges he could take on uniquely required his speed boost.

Now he has unique interactions with marble and piggybacks (he negates the downsides, similar to old wanda and night armor) which lets him use marble that is usually a niche/unpopular option as a cheap, superior armor choice.  Piggyback has 4 more slots than a backpack, and only 2 less than a krampus sack and can be gotten early.  Shield of terror now deals consistent 102 damage which is a great threshold on an item that is easy to repair and provides protection as well.

He’s a combat generalist and that remains a very effective role.  The only thing he’s worse at is speedrunning a specific boss.  I’m not even sure if he’s slower at a full clear than he was before.