Wolfgang refresh, his speed boost, and some other thoughts

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Dollmaker said:

I dont mind the speed removal when you take into consideration what he gained in return.

He can consistently do 2X now during the full duration of Mighty Form unlike before.

Damage has smaller returns in multiplayer, the damage increase is not as exponential as you may think at most battles will be slightly shorter.

1 hour ago, Dollmaker said:

He can use both Piggy Bag and Marble Armor with no speed penalty, which is an exclusive perk to him, both pretty mayor buffs. 

Not exclusive, any character with innate speed increase can do this, pre-refresh Wolfgang could do this also.

1 hour ago, Dollmaker said:

His Might Form lasts nearly a day, and with a Gold or Gem bell you can easily keep it going, once the Gym is fully upgraded which can be really fast if you take out one of the bosses early, you can go from 0 to 100 in a few secs.

This is technically a downgrade because his mighty form previously lasted indefinitely for as long as you had food and required nothing but food.

1 hour ago, Dollmaker said:

(Theres also the speed buff when carrying heavy stuff which is a godsend for Wolfgang players, cause dealing with a Beefalo is annoying, and moving boats fasters by rowing.) 

I fail to see how this is a godsend, but to each their own. Most heavy items only ever need to be moved once for gameplay reasons unless you're going out of your way to use tons of statues for decor.

1 hour ago, Dollmaker said:

When you think about it, all of this is far more fitting to him, perks related to his strength, the speed perk was just weird, and besides that mobility type of thing was hardly exclusive to him at this point, several other characters have ways to move faster, either by speed or teleportation. 

I'll agree his new perks are thematically appropriate but after doing research strongmen also underwent cardio/endurance training which also includes in running. 

Nothing is exclusive to Wolfgang, everyone does something he can already do. If we're to talk about damage exclusively then Warly reaches a higher damage potential on his own even if it's under certain restrictions.

[mr. brj]

3 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

I'm mostly trying really hard to keep that strongman perk and at the same time help him make up for the loss of speed. I spent all night looking at circus performances and reading about strongman acts but it's really hard. (For perks that can be achieved with minimal effort)

 

15 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I'll agree his new perks are thematically appropriate but after doing research strongmen also underwent cardio/endurance training which also includes in running. 

 

I just wanted to take a break from not replying to my own posts and appreciate your dedication my friend

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, mr. brj said:

 

 

I just wanted to take a break from not replying to my own posts and appreciate your dedication my friend

Haha, thanks I have no life. 

Though I'd like to clarify that they weren't faster per say as the endurance training they underwent was to increase their stamina not their speed. 

Still, they weren't slow as some people may think. He would definitely be faster than the average person.

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

because marble suit is used for tanking which should be its general purpose if you're kiting you have no reason to wear a high protection armor piece i'd rather wear a mag

wait, you said that you need to kite with a marble suit but now you're saying to tank it? Wut? 

 

[Dextops]

5 minutes ago, Milordo said:

wait, you said that you need to kite with a marble suit but now you're saying to tank it? Wut? 

 

i said kiting with a marble suit is kinda useless because if you're kiting you don't really need a marble suit and you should just really tank with it

[Milordo]

Just now, Dextops said:

i said kiting with a marble suit is kinda useless because if you're kiting you don't really need a marble suit and you should just really tank with it

then we don't need any armor from now on

[Dextops]

3 minutes ago, Milordo said:

then we don't need any armor from now on

see now you get it

[Milordo]

2 minutes ago, Dextops said:

see now you get it

i see it, i see it

 

[BigPoppaFresh]

19 hours ago, mr. brj said:

In this thread I will first be summarizing my stand on the Wolfgang character refresh, and then will be discussing why Wolfgang's speed boost should stay. Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of the new Wolfgang for various reasons. I might create other threads regarding the other nerfs or the new mightiness meter in the next days, but right now I wanted to stick to a subject that I think is mostly misunderstood in the community.

 

My Thoughts on the Refresh

 

Let me start by giving my overall opinion. I don't think that the new Wolfgang is a bad character. It is, however, definitely not the old Wolfgang, both gameplay-wise (accessibility to his perks and his general game plan) and stat-wise (both the buffs and the nerfs), which makes me feel like this refresh removed one character and replaced it with another. Although Wolfgang used to be a better survivor than most characters thanks to his perks, I don't see a reason to remove most of these perks if the intention of this game is to provide the best experience possible. I always believed that Klei aimed for this intention in their games, and I hope I am not mistaken.

 

If people didn't enjoy Wolfgang before, then I guess it was their loss, either because they didn't give his full potential a decent try or because he was unable to satisfy those players. The second reason is completely understandable and I respect it fully, but I honestly don't understand the need for a nerf when there are so many other alternatives in a potential character refresh. I hope that anyone who is willing to see the points I am trying to make here will at least understand what we will be missing after the refresh. I just don't want us Wolfgang players to lose this character because other players didn't give him a chance, I want to be able to continue playing as Wolfgang because I enjoy playing as him.

 

And finally, please consider that there are players, such as myself, who can't play DST with other people or who prefer to play the game by themselves. The old Wolfgang allowed us to start over a new world if we did something irreversible in our current worlds, by enabling a smooth experience for starting over. The current state of the refresh sadly ignores this aspect too.

 

The Wolfgang Experience and the Speed Boost

 

Now, what makes Wolfgang's speed boost so unique that makes his gameplay enjoyable to the Wolfgang players, and why does the speed boost make Wolfgang's gameplay different? Wolfgang is definitely not a bad character without his speed boost, and he doesn't need the speed boost to be playable. But the Wolfgang experience is not possible without the speed boost. Without it, his gameplay follows roughly the same route as with almost any other character.

 

Contrary to the popular belief, Wolfgang is primarily a resource saver, especially in solo worlds. In order to save resources, he needs to fill his time schedule as much as possible, in most cases with bosses. In order to keep up with his schedule, Wolfgang needs his damage during the fights, and needs his speed when going from a point to another. Rushing an early tamed beefalo for extra speed, for example, is avoided for the reason that it is an expensive task, not because Wolfgang won't benefit from a beefalo. And although a matter of playstyle, the same can be said for rushing the ruins as well. Wolfgang neither needs an early Magiluminessence for a smooth Bee Queen/Klaus fight, nor requires a Thulecite Club for easier kiting. 

 

Before pointing out the "unbalanced" advantage of an easily accessible speed boost combined with extra damage, consider the following: what objectives can you achieve during the first 35 days of your game if you didn't need to rush the ruins for an early speed boost? Build a fully functioning base that only lacks the best head slot armor in the game? Done. Find all the important stuff lying all over the ocean? Possible before the first Winter. Rush all the raid bosses on the mainland and leave the main story arc for the later seasons? The standard Wolfgang gameplay. Setup your meat and crop farms? Still time to kill Bee Queen.

 

All this stuff, and many others, are possible routes you can take with Wolfgang if you are already comfortable playing the game. I admit that there is a certain skill cap that needs to be achieved in order to play him efficiently, but I don't think that this cap is as high as people think. Wolfgang is a character that tends to have a playstyle around rushing not only major, but also minor objectives not because he is primarily the boss slayer, rather because he has the luxury of leaving certain objectives to a later part of the game. This is his playstyle, and this is the Wolfgang experience. And all of this is possible mainly because he doesn't have to worry about his speed so early.

 

This doesn't make his gameplay boring in any way, quite the opposite is actually the case. The old Wolfgang allows you to choose from one of the many routes you can take, enabling a versatile playstyle for players of all interests, be it boss rushing, mega base building, or even both. And it is totally understandable if you believe that the Wolfgang experience is unsatisfactory or unrewarding. Just don't forget that there are players who enjoy this experience, and please consider their interests in this game as well. Us Wolfgang players are not all Edgy Ricks: we play with other characters, respect players regardless of their skill and want to be able to play the game from the start to the point where our base looks fancy. Some of us sadly lack the time for a full commitment to DST, and Wolfgang is the best character to compensate for this without altering the default game through mods or world settings.

Yeah I can't agree with this enough
Pre-rework wolfgang had some of my favourite mechanics in the game, now its just craft an item and go afk to fight stuff
Im hoping klei lets us choose to play the old version after the rework (or someone mods him back to the way he was)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 hours ago, Dextops said:

see now you get it

i wish all of the users that bring this kind of commends will start streaming

what a pros, i wanna learn from you. Srly, stream and will be rock in the category and improve the average player skill with your Korean blessed fingers

[Erineyes7]

I feel you voiced a very good point, and I can't believe the first response is "No".

Wolfgang has always been about speed and efficiency, so removing his perks related to this in exchange for more consistent double damage blows. Most fights in this game don't last long enough for it to matter that much, it just saved time, but having to stand still, for any amount of time, just for damage is boring. I cannot believe people think this is a fair trade in any sense, as now he's so flat and uninteresting.

[mr. brj]

7 minutes ago, Erineyes7 said:

I feel you voiced a very good point, and I can't believe the first response is "No".

Well that first response came exactly one minute after posting the thread, no need to take it seriously.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

Well that first response came exactly one minute after posting the thread, no need to take it seriously.

Hell yeah staying positive and you did bring up alot of points that I'm sure most Wolfgang mains can relate to hopefully in the actual rework people who give their reasoning are heard

[GenomeSquirrel]

It's weird people saying are saying he's uninteresting when his perks are removed, it's like saying the game is fundamentally uninteresting

It's not like other characters don't waste time setting up their perks

 

[goblinball]

18 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

This is technically a downgrade because his mighty form previously lasted indefinitely for as long as you had food and required nothing but food.

The new mighty form can last indefinitely as well with just the occasional use of a gem bell. I’d say this is an upgrade, as remaining mighty using gem bells and golden dumbbells is much cheaper than the constant hunger drain if you want to be mighty indefinitely.

 

20 hours ago, Peyo33 said:

 

A character refresh is supposed to give something new to the character not to take off something.

 

Who gave you the authority to define what character reworks are supposed to do? While previous reworks have consistently expanded their characters perks, I don’t believe it was ever concretely decided that reworks were not allowed to make changes to the character or remove perks. Are we going to start complaining about willow not creating fires when on low sanity anymore?

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, goblinball said:

The new mighty form can last indefinitely as well with just the occasional use of a gem bell. I’d say this is an upgrade, as remaining mighty using gem bells and golden dumbbells is much cheaper than the constant hunger drain if you want to be mighty indefinitely.

 

Who gave you the authority to define what character reworks are supposed to do? While previous reworks have consistently expanded their characters perks, I don’t believe it was ever concretely decided that reworks were not allowed to make changes to the character or remove perks. Are we going to start complaining about willow not creating fires when on low sanity anymore?

I don't see how crafts that require stone, gems, or gold would be cheaper than food. Food is probably the easiest resource to get in the game, with farms being automatic and food being generated infinitely by replantable plants and bee hives.

[Cloakingsumo198]

15 minutes ago, goblinball said:

previous reworks have consistently expanded their characters perks

I dunno man i think this is why some people are kinda expecting more than what we have right now

[mr. brj]

40 minutes ago, goblinball said:

Who gave you the authority to define what character reworks are supposed to do?

No one, we are just sharing our thoughts, ideas and concerns here. In the end Klei decides what goes into the game and what doesn't, so please try to be more thoughtful to those who are not entirely happy. Once the update drops, it is quite unlikely that there will be major changes and we want Klei to know that we won't be satisfied with the current state of the refresh. I hope in the end we all get a Wolfgang that satisfies most of us.

[goblinball]

15 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

No one, we are just sharing our thoughts, ideas and concerns here.

Idk if you read their post but they stated “a character refresh is supposed to give something new to the character not take off something.” It doesn’t get much closer to defining character reworks than that. 

 

[HowlVoid]

35 minutes ago, goblinball said:

Idk if you read their post but they stated “a character refresh is supposed to give something new to the character not take off something.” It doesn’t get much closer to defining character reworks than that. 

 

I mean it's also stated it's supposed 

"Make the significant gameplay changes"

Which I have yet to see, other than number changes/added mechanics this is the same old Wolfgang gameplay wise. 

[Peyo33]

6 hours ago, goblinball said:

Who gave you the authority to define what character reworks are supposed to do? 

The Lord of Potatoes.

Fly down and choose the words before saying. The other reworks gave something new to the character, so i suppose that's the same way in every rework. When they removed the perk from Wickerbottom they find another way to get it back without ruining the character.