I hope we won't see the difficulty increased for all characters because a new or a refreshed character again.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Nettalie said:

If all characters were fighting focused, then I could maybe see that, but most characters have utility outside of just killing bosses and buffing a boss just because of one character change or a new character seems a bit much for me personally.

 

2 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Followers don't just magically fix difficulties players have with the game, especially since most difficulties they face are outside of difficult mob encounters and because followers can be extremely expensive for newer players.
While I agree these options should be utilized more, they aren't really THE answer to all things regarding difficulty in combat, especially not when it comes to newer players who might not even know you can befriend pigs for example or are easily overwhelmed because there's so much to worry about at all times that they might not consider it at the time.
Not saying that everything needs to be identical to a spider or else nobody is able to play the game, just that I don't think buffing everything is fine simply because an underutilized feature exists in the game.

We're talking about spider queens and if a player can't get their hands a piece of meat which is enough to have a pig follow you for a day why the heck would they think they could kill a spider queen. Your right followers don't magically fix all problems but they do give you more breathing room in fights where swarming is a issue. There's also more combat options in these cases if care is used like using fire damage or baskets both of which are very affordable. Also if a player chooses not to experiment and doesn't learn what their capable of that is the player's fault being new is not a excuse not to raise a game's difficulty being bad at fighting is a different story but most of the dangers in don't starve together don't hunt you down it's usually "you" who proactively engages them and the option to flee is always there. 

[Juny Pear]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

with 2 pig skin (8 monster meat)+2 meat+1 rope+2 twigs you dont have problems of queens amassing spiders, neither nurses, warriors or regular.

This is already under the assumption players know werepigs can be transformed at will, something you will only know if you played the game enough or talk to people who do, which most newer players as far as I know dont really do

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so, if the queen spawning warriors, nurses (not a common thing...) and regular spiders can be beaten in the same way and with the same problems if the player makes a bad performance than if fighting a pre weeber rework queen, from where comes the drama? 

Spider warriors and nurse spiders have the same spawn rate of about 25%, with regular spiders spawning at a rate of about 50%.
This happens every 10 seconds. Queens very often dont spawn directly on screen and thus they often already have a lot of spiders around them because they spawn them offscreen.

This wouldn't be an issue at all if all she did was spawn more spiders and occasionally warriors, but now with nurses added this can easily be enough to drag the fight out quite a lot.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

This happens every 10 seconds.

20 seconds

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Nettalie said:

This is already under the assumption players know werepigs can be transformed at will, something you will only know if you played the game enough or talk to people who do, which most newer players as far as I know dont really do

again, they should be hunting rabbits not fighting a boss

1 minute ago, Nettalie said:

Spider warriors and nurse spiders have the same spawn rate of about 25%, with regular spiders spawning at a rate of about 50%.
This happens every 10 seconds. Queens very often dont spawn directly on screen and thus they often already have a lot of spiders around them because they spawn them offscreen.

This wouldn't be an issue at all if all she did was spawn more spiders and occasionally warriors, but now with nurses added this can easily be enough to drag the fight out quite a lot.

 

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

with 2 pig skin (8 monster meat)+2 meat+1 rope+2 twigs you dont have problems of queens amassing spiders, neither nurses, warriors or regular.

[Juny Pear]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

if they dont know that pigs can follow you what are they doing fighting a spider queen? the 1st time i tried to kill a spider queen was because i was already confortable with some mechanics of the game or knowing that you can use spider hats, pigs, other mobs like beefalos in heat, darts, staffs, craft a better weapon, not using torches, etc before that i just run out of that biome for days 

if we start with these kind of facts we can remove everything because noob players die of darkness 1st day...

What are they doing fighting a spiderqueen?
Probably trying to get it away from their camp because they didnt enticipate the spiderden 2 screens away to start walking around and dont know much about the game because they are likely new.

its not that outlandish to say that the follower mechanic can be weird for players to come accross on their own when 90% of encounters with any mob is either just "this will kill me" or "i need to kill this"

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Nettalie said:

What are they doing fighting a spiderqueen?
Probably trying to get it away from their camp because they didnt enticipate the spiderden 2 screens away to start walking around and dont know much about the game because they are likely new.

its not that outlandish to say that the follower mechanic can be weird for players to come accross on their own when 90% of encounters with any mob is either just "this will kill me" or "i need to kill this"

then they have learned a lesson that everyplayer here have learned before or will learn soon. Dont camp near spiders

are we srly discussing about queens spawning a 400 mob that might heal every 8 seconds for the crazy ammount of 3 hits?

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Nettalie said:

What are they doing fighting a spiderqueen?
Probably trying to get it away from their camp because they didnt enticipate the spiderden 2 screens away to start walking around and dont know much about the game because they are likely new.

its not that outlandish to say that the follower mechanic can be weird for players to come accross on their own when 90% of encounters with any mob is either just "this will kill me" or "i need to kill this"

This assumes the player hasn't tried any form of experimentation avoided most conflicts and somehow came to the conclusion they should go all spartan and fight to the death with a spider queen who at the earliest assuming they didn't relocate the den should have spawned around day 20 I'm not saying this is impossible but at that point they likely died to hounds or many of the other threats before making it that far and even if they die to the queen it'd be a good learning experience.

[Juny Pear]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

We're talking about spider queens and if a player can't get their hands a piece of meat which is enough to have a pig follow you for a day why the heck would they think they could kill a spider queen. Your right followers don't magically fix all problems but they do give you more breathing room in fights where swarming is a issue. There's also more combat options in these cases if care is used like using fire damage or baskets both of which are very affordable. Also if a player chooses not to experiment and doesn't learn what their capable of that is the player's fault being new is not a excuse not to raise a game's difficulty being bad at fighting is a different story but most of the dangers in don't starve together don't hunt you down it's usually "you" who proactively engages them and the option to flee is always there. 

They would try killing the queen because...
it is a huge thing that has followers which kill anything closeby and so you do not want that thing anywhere close to your camp, which is realistic to happen.

And while things such as fire damage are options for combat, getting magic up can be another area for newer players that can be really difficult to get started and using torches is just as risky, if not riskier, as fighting her head on.
Rabbit traps would probably be the best option for them... if it was very clear they can be used on spiders and not JUST rabbits.

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

20 seconds

Nope, it's 10 seconds in dst.

20 seconds is the spawnrate in ds.

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

then they have learned a lesson that everyplayer here have learned before or will learn soon. Dont camp near spiders

are we srly discussing about queens spawning a 400 mob that might heal every 8 seconds for the crazy ammount of 3 hits?

We are because spiderqueens dont just spawn a single nurse and then thats it, they spawn **** constantly and nurses just drag out the fight a whole ton and having a bunch of nurses is not too uncommon unless you take out the queen like immediately.

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

They would try killing the queen because...
it is a huge thing that has followers which kill anything closeby and so you do not want that thing anywhere close to your camp, which is realistic to happen.

So every new player would fight to the death in a game where they know they can't revive without help regardless of if they think they can win?

8 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

And while things such as fire damage are options for combat, getting magic up can be another area for newer players that can be really difficult to get started and using torches is just as risky, if not riskier, as fighting her head on.
Rabbit traps would probably be the best option for them... if it was very clear they can be used on spiders and not JUST rabbits.

Torches to burn nurses. Also here's the description for traps "Capture small creatures." how would they even know it works on rabbits?

[Juny Pear]

  

Just now, Mysterious box said:

So every new player would fight to the death in a game where they know they can't revive without help regardless of r they think they can win?

Torches to burn nurses. Also here's the description for traps "Capture small creatures." how would they even know it works on rabbits?

Of course not every new player would do that, its just that either this is the most immediate reaction for most players, or they try avoiding it altogether until they cant really do that anymore.

Also my point about torches still stands, most players neglect reading descriptions in the first place and rabbits are way smaller than spiders, so I fail to see how trapping spiders would be an intuitive thing players just do, especially since the way spiders get introduced to players is through them being a threat you gotta fight, while with rabbits direct combat is usually not the go to method for newer players. At most I can see someone try trapping a frog since these are at least comparable in size to rabbits.

22 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

if we start with these kind of facts we can remove everything because noob players die of darkness 1st day...

Also thats gotta be the biggest strawman ive seen all day

[Mysterious box]

14 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

They would try killing the queen because...
it is a huge thing that has followers which kill anything closeby and so you do not want that thing anywhere close to your camp, which is realistic to happen.

Strawman this reaction is something most people would avoid considering we're talking about a new player we're assuming they would not be very used to combat heck they may not even have a base even with all their stuff being there it's nonsensical to try to fight a boss when they might not even be able to beat a pig man what your suggesting is a player ignores all common sense for the sake of a base which is far removed from a new player action. 

 

4 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Of course not every new player would do that, its just that either this is the most immediate reaction for most players, or they try avoiding it altogether until they cant really do that anymore.

Also my point about torches still stands, most players neglect reading descriptions in the first place and rabbits are way smaller than spiders, so I fail to see how trapping spiders would be an intuitive thing players just do, especially since the way spiders get introduced to players is through them being a threat you gotta fight, while with rabbits direct combat is usually not the go to method for newer players. At most I can see someone try trapping a frog since these are at least comparable in size to rabbits.

No this is not true in the slightest there is absolutely no reason a person who finds out a trap can trap something small wouldn't try it on smaller mobs like spiders.

[Juny Pear]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Strawman this reaction is something most people would avoid considering we're talking about a new player we're assuming they would not be very used to combat heck they may not even have a base even with all their stuff being there it's nonsensical to try to fight a boss when they might not even be able to beat a pig man what your suggesting is a player ignores all common sense for the sake of a base which is far removed from a new player action. 

1. That's not what a strawman is, a strawman is when you try to prove your "opponents" argument in a debate as wrong by giving and comparing to an argument that is not only far removed from the original point, but without addressing the actual point.
2. I dont know if we both just have a very different understanding of what new players do, but that is something I see fairly frequently in different contexts. Newer players attempting to fight back at something they arent well prepared for i mean, not literally going head first to battle to the death (which by the way was also never even my point and just kinda appeared out of nowhere? my point was the fight is more difficult, not that newer players would always battle everything to the death)

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

No this is not true in the slightest there is absolutely no reason a person who finds out a trap can trap something small wouldn't try it on smaller mobs like spiders.

What I'm trying to say though is that spiders are pretty big for a smaller mob and that its not all that outrageous to say being able to trap spiders can be weird to expect of newer players when the mob traps are very clearly trying to tell you to use them on are not just half the size of a spider, but also try running away from you, which immediately puts the image into your head to catch them using a trap (prey and all).

Spiders on the other hand are hostile and as such, as I said before, its not too unlikely that traps being able to catch spiders is not something you got on your radar.

2 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

That's not what a strawman is, a strawman is when you try to prove your "opponents" argument in a debate as wrong by giving and comparing to an argument that is not only far removed from the original point, but without addressing the actual point.

Mind you though this is not to frame aurorabeefalo as trying to maliciously twist words or anything, this kind of thing happens a lot without people noticing.

[Maxposting]

8 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

1. (I cant removed these bulletpoints) -ivo
2. What I'm trying to say though is that spiders are pretty big for a smaller mob and that its not all that outrageous to say being able to trap spiders can be weird to expect of newer players when the mob traps are very clearly trying to tell you to use them on are not just half the size of a spider, but also try running away from you, which immediately puts the image into your head to catch them using a trap (prey and all).

Spiders on the other hand are hostile and as such, as I said before, its not too unlikely that traps being able to catch spiders is not something you got on your radar.

I myself can agree, usually you dont trap something like a spider using a rabbit trap, so I would never come across this without reading about it in advance

[Juny Pear]

You can remove the bullet points by selecting specifically the bullet points in the quote and then clicking the bullet point icon on the bar on top of the comment writing section.

[Mysterious box]

17 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

1. That's not what a strawman is, a strawman is when you try to prove your "opponents" argument in a debate as wrong by giving and comparing to an argument that is not only far removed from the original point, but without addressing the actual point.
2. I dont know if we both just have a very different understanding of what new players do, but that is something I see fairly frequently in different contexts. Newer players attempting to fight back at something they arent well prepared for i mean, not literally going head first to battle to the death (which by the way was also never even my point and just kinda appeared out of nowhere? my point was the fight is more difficult, not that newer players would always battle everything to the death)

What I'm trying to say though is that spiders are pretty big for a smaller mob and that its not all that outrageous to say being able to trap spiders can be weird to expect of newer players when the mob traps are very clearly trying to tell you to use them on are not just half the size of a spider, but also try running away from you, which immediately puts the image into your head to catch them using a trap (prey and all).

Spiders on the other hand are hostile and as such, as I said before, its not too unlikely that traps being able to catch spiders is not something you got on your radar.

The thing is most of your arguments put new players in a very specific box that makes it seem unreasonable to be the standard.

This new player

-learned about traps but didn't experiment

-chooses to fight a boss realizes their losing and doesn't flee

-chose not to interact with mobs who weren't hostile to see if something can be done

 

All that being said if a player doesn't experiment or decide to learn the game or combat and then loses they have no one to blame but themselves.

[zacqiang]

I have no idea why the debacle is about newer players trying to fight a miniboss without any prior preparation or know-how.

From my experience meeting newer players, the usual response I find is that, they would 200% run away from anything that looks hostile and wants to bite their heads off, and it doesn't matter whether it's near their base or not. They. Would. Run.

I think the topic is kinda off here, since it's more about the annoyance of having to deal with some changes rather than an inconvenience for newer players.

 

[Juny Pear]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

The thing is most of your arguments put new players in a very specific box that makes it seem unreasonable to be the standard.

This new player

-learned about traps but didn't experiment

Again, with what I said about spiders compared to rabbits is not too far fetched.

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

-chooses to fight a boss realizes their losing and doesn't flee

Again, did not say the player would fight to the death, only that fighting the queen is made harder for them.

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

-chose not to interact with mobs who weren't hostile to see if something can be done

Again, did not say this. I said that getting to learn the follower mechanic might be weird for newer players because not only are there very little followers you can even have in the game, but also you need food to fill hunger, fill sanity and fill health. It might not occur to someone that they can give a piece of meat to a pig so they help you out when the game not only tells you food is important for you, but also that to get meat you need to kill mobs, which honestly seems like the more likely thing a player thinks of when seeing pigmen.

And even when they do know they can befriend pigs it might still not occur to them to use this one very niche mechanic while being faced with a spider queen in the moment. 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Again, with what I said about spiders compared to rabbits is not too far fetched.

Again, did not say the player would fight to the death, only that fighting the queen is made harder for them.

Again, did not say this. I said that getting to learn the follower mechanic might be weird for newer players because not only are there very little followers you can even have in the game, but also you need food to fill hunger, fill sanity and fill health. It might not occur to someone that they can give a piece of meat to a pig so they help you out when the game not only tells you food is important for you, but also that to get meat you need to kill mobs, which honestly seems like the more likely thing a player thinks of when seeing pigmen.

And even when they do know they can befriend pigs it might still not occur to them to use this one very niche mechanic while being faced with a spider queen in the moment. 

It seemed implied but assuming none of this is the case why do new players even matter in this discussion? They'll see they can't win and flee come back and find the queen is gone.

[Juny Pear]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

It seemed implied but assuming none of this is the case why do new players even matter in this discussion? They'll see they can't win and flee come back and find the queen is gone.

The point is that they could be learning to deal with a queen and could slowly take her down eventually, but nurses make that process much more difficult because they drag the fight out longer, which increases the likelihood for them to mess up by a lot.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Nettalie said:

The point is that they could be learning to deal with a queen and could slowly take her down eventually, but nurses make that process much more difficult because they drag the fight out longer, which increases the likelihood for them to mess up by a lot.

They still can learn they just need to become more experienced with game mechanics and I'd argue she better prepares players for higher end boss fights also spider nurses spawn chance isn't even that high.

[Juny Pear]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

They still can learn they just need to become more experienced with game mechanics and I'd argue she better prepares players for higher end boss fights also spider nurses spawn chance isn't even that high.

Dont you have to intentionally summon raid bosses yourself?
Not just that but a boss such as beequeen has a way lower cap on how many minions are summoned at a time and doesnt have a way of healing. Beequeen is still harder to fight due to her healthpool, slowdown and high dps, but a spiderqueen, a boss that passively spawns over time, seems, at least to me, to not need to be a really tanky beast with a large army of minions that heal each other.

Also a 25% chance for a nurse spider on each spawn is fairly high in my opinion since it doesnt take a lot of them to become really annoying to deal with.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Nettalie said:

Dont you have to intentionally summon raid bosses yourself?
Not just that but a boss such as beequeen has a way lower cap on how many minions are summoned at a time and doesnt have a way of healing. Beequeen is still harder to fight due to her healthpool, slowdown and high dps, but a spiderqueen, a boss that passively spawns over time, seems, at least to me, to not need to be a really tanky beast with a large army of minions that heal each other.

Also a 25% chance for a nurse spider on each spawn is fairly high in my opinion since it doesnt take a lot of them to become really annoying to deal with.

Don't you have to have a den relatively close to base and let it stay tier 3 for around half and hour for her to be a direct issue. also nurse spawn rate is 22.5 percent

[Juny Pear]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Don't you have to have a den relatively close to base and let it stay tier 3 for around half and hour for her to be a direct issue. also nurse spawn rate is 22.5 percent

True.
Also hey I wasn't too far off on that at least.

[Cheggf]

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

play wilson you'll feel nurse spiders pretty quick

Heal has an 8 second cooldown, nurse spiders can be killed in 6 hits as Wilson, 6 hits takes a minimum of roughly 2.5 seconds. You have plenty of time.

I was fighting them as Wes, who takes 33% longer to kill things, and I didn't notice much of a difference.

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

the nurse isn't going to be alone. It's a queen, she makes more spiders.

She births one spider every 20 seconds and a spider takes only 1 or 2 seconds to kill. If you're being overwhelmed by the flow of spiders whether or not there's nurses is irrelevant, the group of warrior spiders is going to be the much bigger issue.

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

if an encounter can't be achieved without having your damage completely erased every moment or so then it is flawed.

It can be achieved without having your damage completely erased. Nurse spiders are not immortal. They're easily killed, and can not heal while dead.

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Heal has an 8 second cooldown, nurse spiders can be killed in 6 hits as Wilson, 6 hits takes a minimum of roughly 2.5 seconds. You have plenty of time.

I was fighting them as Wes, who takes 33% longer to kill things, and I didn't notice much of a difference.

She births one spider every 20 seconds and a spider takes only 1 or 2 seconds to kill. If you're being overwhelmed by the flow of spiders whether or not there's nurses is irrelevant, the group of warrior spiders is going to be the much bigger issue.

It can be achieved without having your damage completely erased. Nurse spiders are not immortal. They're easily killed, and can not heal while dead.

you're kinda assuming dark swords and end gear all over the place. That isn't realistic for, say, a public server.

also I don't get where this 20 second birth thing comes from? it's 10.