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List of Design Issues and Suggestions


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I am in favor of the notion of Hevi-Pipes. Both gas and liquid variants.

Also, I really really want mid to late game pumps and machines that can be placed in magma or molten metals for building industrial foundries. Maybe expensive multi-material machines without overheat damage mechanics that are limited by material property combinations in their construction, so a steel+ceramic industrial liquid pump would work up until it melts; definitely should use refined materials and allow space-materials so you can build like a thermium+insulation industrial pump.

I'd like to see the mechanisms for a proper heat-exchanger. The thermo aquatuner and regulators serve the purposes of one part of a heat exchanger; they need their mirror images. IE a device which takes heat from the environment and shoves it into the gas or liquid passing through them. The heat exchangers should preserve THC in moving heat from one medium to another. For early game, the aquatuner and regulator are generally fine as is, but there should be mid to late game variants like if the industrial equipment suggestions above are implemented there should be industrial correspondents of the heat exchangers with the pumps. If the hevi-pipes are developed then maybe hevi-pipe-requiring heat exchangers and pumps.

At the end game side of things I would like to see officially supported constructible tiles that function as pumps for liquids, gases, or solids as well as constructible thermoelectric generator tiles and heat exchanger tiles (they would direct heat from one side of the tile to another rather than allowing the heat to flow ambiguiously). The thermoelectric generator tiles should produce very small amounts of energy and should require a temperature differential on each side of the tile; they can not function if the difference between temperatures on each side of the tile is equal; extra points if they're reversible (maybe controlled by automation signals) so if they are powered they generate a temperature differential on each side of them.

There's a number of buildings from the very beginning of the game development project which don't have a bunch of QOL features that came later. I feel that at least manual generators should have a "copy settings" function, and I think automation variants for the pitcher pump and bottle emptier ought to exist; I'd like to see a pitcher pump like building that pumps liquid directly into pipes and similar for gas.

For the power grid, I think a "direct current" tile of some kind ought to exist. The power transformers currently serve the purpose of directing current in a circuit and allow power to be moved from a battery bank behind the power transformer to battery banks in front of the power transformer; however, this is clumsy in practice for chaining power transformers in series due to the fact that the power transformers are 1000 watt consumers and will break the smallest and most common wire type. A simple wire-bridge-like tile would go a long ways towards making power grids a lot easier to develop for the early game and a lot easier to manage in the late game; it would also mirror the behaviors more intuitively for moving liquids and gases through circuits in piping.

A proper distinction between AC and DC grids would be among my wishlist features, but it would require probably a DLC level effort to actually realize. I will note that for things like the TEGs and an electric circuitry or electromagnetism overhaul I would be willing to pay 5$ to 15$ for a DLC.

Finally, there needs to be some kind of spigot and manual filled tank duo so dupes can get bottled liquids directly from pipes and insert them into pipes in the base game. Similar for gas. Ideally, I'd love to see batteries that the dupes can carry and which can be slotted into rechargers and dischargers so dupes can carry electrical power manually.

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I would indeed like a lot more power consumers in the game, seeing as one of the biggest additions in this DLC is power production via Uranium. The game already had an overabundance of power production with nothing to sink it in, so I'm hoping that they have more in store as the DLC receives more updates. It doesn't seem to me like that would be the industrial quantity mid to late game pumps you mentioned, but one can hope.

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2 hours ago, Unfawkable said:

one of the biggest additions in this DLC is power production via Uranium.

What "power" production..? Not electrical power at least.

Current buildings consume power to produce enriched uranium from uranium ore or radbolts from radiation.

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1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

What "power" production..? Not electrical power at least.

Current buildings consume power to produce enriched uranium from uranium ore or radbolts from radiation.

Pretty sure that one of the most prominent uses for Uranium is producing colossal amounts of heat via Steam meant to harness as electrical power via the Steam Turbine.

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13 minutes ago, Unfawkable said:

Pretty sure that one of the most prominent uses for Uranium is producing colossal amounts of heat via Steam meant to harness as electrical power via the Steam Turbine.

Yeah.. Sorry.. That power. I'm not going to touch that for a long long time :lol:

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2 hours ago, Unfawkable said:

I mean, I have 500 hours and I haven't built a single Steam Turbine, so I get it xD

I'm working on an addendum to the original post about suggested power generation methods or at least engineering constraints for the early to mid game prior to oil processing, nuclear processing, and steam turbines.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on why you haven't built a Steam Turbine and what you've done instead in those 500 hours? I am particularly curious about your assertion that there is a power generation abundance combined with your assertion that you build no Steam Turbines; the power sources you are using necessarily are manual, coal-fired, wood-fired, hydrogen, oil, nat-gas, or solar. What's your preferred methods of power generation?

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3 hours ago, DaClown said:

I'm working on an addendum to the original post about suggested power generation methods or at least engineering constraints for the early to mid game prior to oil processing, nuclear processing, and steam turbines.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on why you haven't built a Steam Turbine and what you've done instead in those 500 hours? I am particularly curious about your assertion that there is a power generation abundance combined with your assertion that you build no Steam Turbines; the power sources you are using necessarily are manual, coal-fired, wood-fired, hydrogen, oil, nat-gas, or solar. What's your preferred methods of power generation?

The disdain of the Steam Turbines is definitely fear of heat mismanagement for me. My first experience with this game was my entire colony slowly dying of heat because nothing would grow at 50 degrees around day 100 or so because I had no idea that was a thing you should do. So every playthrough after that, I've been padding everything with obscene amounts of insulation tiles, and micro managing heat everywhere. Suffice to say that puts me off from toying with something that needs 200 degrees to operate efficiently.

My preferred method is Solar cause it costs no resources you can exhaust and has no by product once established properly. But since this is a late game solution, I get to there mostly on Natural Gas generators with Hydrogen generators as a backup system. I also tend to have 1 Petroleum generator to burn any Ethanol if there's wood around, and for a boost if needed for a big consumer. Since those aren't in the starting planetoid now though, I look forward to seeing how I'll adapt. (Haven't played yet, I'd like a few more updates fleshed out before I start)

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On 3/19/2021 at 1:29 PM, Unfawkable said:

The disdain of the Steam Turbines is definitely fear of heat mismanagement for me. My first experience with this game was my entire colony slowly dying of heat because nothing would grow at 50 degrees around day 100 or so because I had no idea that was a thing you should do. So every playthrough after that, I've been padding everything with obscene amounts of insulation tiles, and micro managing heat everywhere. Suffice to say that puts me off from toying with something that needs 200 degrees to operate efficiently.

My preferred method is Solar cause it costs no resources you can exhaust and has no by product once established properly. But since this is a late game solution, I get to there mostly on Natural Gas generators with Hydrogen generators as a backup system. I also tend to have 1 Petroleum generator to burn any Ethanol if there's wood around, and for a boost if needed for a big consumer. Since those aren't in the starting planetoid now though, I look forward to seeing how I'll adapt. (Haven't played yet, I'd like a few more updates fleshed out before I start)

That matches my experience. Before the DLC came out, I was doing challenges and experiments in The Badlands Asteroid.

To me the jump from non-refined metals to refined metals is pretty huge and the jump from coal to either hydrogen or oil is pretty huge. Especially to oil/nat-gas. Electrolyzers aren't too hard to setup but they are somewhat hard to manage well if you're unwilling to just vent bulk gases to space.

I rarely end up setting up Steam Turbines because of their refined metal and plastic requirements and the general implicit steel requirements for practical operation. Most players I've watched are happy to setup a rock crusher to get the minimum amount of materials they need to jump start oil refining to jump start steam turbines and aquatuners. In the pre-DLC, they'd do this happily because it would get them rockets that would bring them everything they could ever need.

The DLC has definitely majorly changed the dynamics of the game play and the meta. Oil biomes aren't in the first asteroid, so you have to either setup rockets or you have to setup teleporter logistics between the first two asteroids. Which means that if you don't pick a starting asteroid with some ethanol there isn't presently the ability to use the combustion engines. Its all coal and manual until you hit solar and solar/glass is gated behind atomic research.

The DLC also gates suits depending on which asteroid you pick to start out on. Terra seems to have a chance of having native reeds and dreckos whereas those seem absent in the Swamp.

Even before the DLC, I had noticed that there is a steep learning curve and abrupt gap from setting up coal power to setting up oil/nat-gas/hydrogen generators. I figure most players--not necessarily the loudest, most persistent, or most visible players--rely mostly on coal. I feel that there is a mistake in the game design in gating thermoelectric power behind oil processing, plastic, steel, and atomic research; I don't necessarily think that Steam Turbines as they are should be moved or ungated, but I do think there should be some kind of distinctly different thermoelectric engine that people can cut their teeth on between coal and oil/nat-gas/hydrogen/solar.

 

Personally, I am interested in learning to smelt materials and designing mechanism which directly use heat rather than skipping to Steam Turbines and using Metal Refineries to bypass the very important task of learning the thermodynamic management principles of the game and the reduction of required dupe labor. Before the DLC, you could roll a starting asteroid that had at least one refined metal volcano on it and go from there, but the DLC now prevents that from being the case though offers you the iron of the previously-badlands-exclusive-barrens-biome.

Smaller starting asteroids and the reduction of immediate accessibility to refined metal volcanoes and the major changes to ore resourcing makes conservation of non-refined metal ores all the more important given that refined metals are never a true substitution for the common ores you need to build most things out of.

 

What kinds of things would you like to see in terms of early to mid game thermal and power management?

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13 hours ago, DaClown said:

The DLC has definitely majorly changed the dynamics of the game play and the meta. Oil biomes aren't in the first asteroid, so you have to either setup rockets or you have to setup teleporter logistics between the first two asteroids. Which means that if you don't pick a starting asteroid with some ethanol there isn't presently the ability to use the combustion engines. Its all coal and manual until you hit solar and solar/glass is gated behind atomic research.

And I actually love this, the game is a lot less linear because of it, and I always loved doing space stuff so HAVING to do them works for me. I think teleporter logistics are the logical (heh) first step before rockets. Even though you can get rockets set up earlier than before, you can't set them up efficiently for material transport before the teleporter, and I think the teleporter fills a nice role there to set you up on one secondary base.

13 hours ago, DaClown said:

Even before the DLC, I had noticed that the is a step learning curve and abrupt gap from setting up coal power to setting up oil/nat-gas/hydrogen generators. I figure most players--not necessarily the loudest, most persistent, or most visible players--rely mostly on coal. I feel that there is a mistake in the game design in gating thermoelectric power behind oil processing, plastic, steel, and atomic research; I don't necessarily think that Steam Turbines as they are should be moved or ungated, but I do think there should be some kind of distinctly different thermoelectric engine that people can cut their teeth on between coal and oil/nat-gas/hydrogen/solar.

What kinds of things would you like to see in terms of early to mid game thermal and power management?

There is definitely more room for a smoother transition in power, but that's difficult to achieve and not have some other interim step completely obsolete as a lesser choice. This is why I think that only unique new power generation systems should be added, like the Plug Slugs. A smaller Radiation power generation system would also be nice here, something a lot smaller than the Radbolt configuration without Steam generators, that would give better outputs than Coal but worse than everything else.

As for thermal management, I'd really like to see something very expensive late game, but that's actually simple to setup for heat deletion. I like designing complex solutions, but I also like simple solutions for a simple problem. If I overinvested in obtaining materials for an expensive solution, I'd like it to be simple to implement, and vice versa.

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11 hours ago, Unfawkable said:

I think teleporter logistics are the logical (heh) first step before rockets.

I would agree in part, but the issue is that if you start on Swamp instead of Terra then your power options are severely limited. To efficiently make refined metals in the quantities you need to setup conveyor systems, you need a lot of power. This can be resolved somewhat by going "Sure, just make a bunch of glass and solar panels with your first batch of Iron and the tiny amounts of metal you can make with coal/manual." But that resolution means that metal refinement is after bulk radiation processing and after solar panels; on Swamp, I am racing against running out of coal and I have several hundred hours of play experience; if you're a new player on the Swamp asteroid that doesn't get lucky with print pod hatches or a means of renewable fuel sources then you're going to end up having to use manual generation to push from manual/coal-era to post-solar-era.

I consider the metal refinement jump to be as complex as the oil refinement and mechatronics steps in general once all things are accounted for. Metal refinement requires canny power generation and management involving automation as well as liquid generation and management as well as relatively advanced ONI thermodynamic management; the lack of heat engines before the Steam Turbine makes metal refinement prior to the bog-standard heat management method and generally along side setting up a whole electrolyzer/hydrogen generator which itself requires significant gas, liquid, and thermodynamic management. Or you lose significant amounts of precious ores.

11 hours ago, Unfawkable said:

A smaller Radiation power generation system would also be nice here, something a lot smaller than the Radbolt configuration without Steam generators, that would give better outputs than Coal but worse than everything else.

I would love to see the radiation update implement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generators, but they'd need to implement proper thermal heating from radiation first; I would not consider it acceptable to just make them eat radioactive materials like a coal generator and spit out power; the design and operation of an RTG is based around the notion that once they are built they generate power for hundreds or thousands of years without refueling, but the drawback is the mass it takes to make them safe and the tiny trickle of power they produce relative to alternatives. Significant risks of construction and operation.

In general, I feel like there should be a series of thermoelectric generators available prior to solar panels and steam turbines; I feel they should be situated after coal. I've started working out a system of constraints for specifying their design and the design of some intermediary generators; from my perspective, there is an intuitive gap between hand-fed-solid-fueled power engines and the piped, non-solid fueled power engines where there is a set of functions for transforming between materials and material properties for electrical power that is implicit but not implemented.

The thing is for me that the generator doesn't have to be better than Coal in terms of raw output and come after it theoretically. I would be happy with a generator that can be built that generates 10w continuously from ambient power or from piped materials flowing through with specific properties. The major difference between Manual Generation to Coal Generation isn't really about the magnitude of the power generated but the massive reduction in labor required to sustain power generation. The main reason to go from Coal to Oil or Steam or Solar is the total elimination of dupe labor in the circuit of power generation and the possibility of total automation of power generation.

I generally skip oil and nat-gas for that reason because the basic oil buildings require duplicant operation which is to me a step back towards Manual Generators. You can setup petroleum boilers that are entirely automated but that is generally a project at the same scope and scale as just setting up the much simpler Steam Turbines and water boilers.

I feel like there should be some kind of solid-fuel generator that requires significant processing of its fuel source to operate. Oil is an extreme jump from "mine it and burn it" of coal generator. And the nuclear power plant is way beyond spec. For solid fuel generators, coal and wood are the only things for early/mid game. Wood is close to what I am thinking but wood is arguably more complicated than oil.

One concept I was working out is a Waste Incineration electric power generator that uses oxygen, water, and compostables to produce ash (coal, refined carbon, or graphite), bulk sand, polluted water, some combination of gases (around 27% CO2 and 73% other gases like maybe sour gas, sulfur, hydrogen, and chloride), and lots of heat; based on the Wikipedia article, I would say that there should be 20% of the solid input as solid outputs with 80% of the output being split between the gases and polluted water with the gases being the bulk output; it seems particularly appropriate for the Swamp asteroid in the DLC.

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Assembly line like titles.

  • Moves debris, dupes, critters, rovers, or sweepies left or right depending on the orientation of the block.
  • Powered when moving objects; does not move things when unpowered.
  • Enabled or disabled by automation input.
  • Can not move items upwards.
  • Does not move liquids or gases significantly.
  • Comes before conveyor rails and before, at, or after autosweepers.

Capillary-like action tube tiles.

  • Allow liquids or gases to flow in as tiles; bulk possible mass/second rate should be higher than 10Kg but lower than a free tile.
  • Directs fluid motion based on heat differences due to changes in "surface energy" or surface tension; maybe combined with pressure differentials at the entrance and exit of the tubes IE fluid at one side of a tube opening tends to flow to vacuum on the opposite side of the tube opening.
    • Can enter static states where fluids are halted in the tubes or not drawn into them due to insufficient pressure, heat, or energetic differences at each end of the tube or ambiguous tension due to multiple entrances and exits.
  • Unpowered; the functions of the tile is passive depending on physical arrangement and demonstrated understanding of ONI thermodynamics.
  • Tiles do not allow solids or debris to pass through; dupes can walk on the tube tiles and the non-open sides of the tiles can support buildings.
  • Sensitive to overpressure conditions.
  • Should be possible to construct something like a Venturi Tube when combined with other tile types and appropriate environment conditions like the top and bottom of a starting asteroid in Spaced Out to exploit the Joule-Thompson effect which allows "the temperature change of a real gas or liquid (as differentiated from an ideal gas) when it is forced through a valve or porous plug while keeping it insulated so that no heat is exchanged with the environment."
  • "The gas-cooling throttling process is commonly exploited in refrigeration processes such as air conditioners, heat pumps, and liquefiers."
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I am in favor of being able to build warehouses with characteristics as described by Babba. Storage tech is deeply neglected compared to other game functions like power generation.

I would not mind depreciating the vast majority of my storage bins for long term storage solutions.

I'd happily build 4x4 buildings that give me more storage than building the space equivalent 4 storage bins. I would even accommodate storage buildings that were like 64 or 96 total tiles (16x4 to 24x4 or 8x8 to 12x8) if it meant getting certain compression benefits and particularly if the stored stuff was averaged and non-interactive with the environment.

Can even take several tonnes of granite, igneous rock, sandstone, or take a bunch of basic materials with some advanced materials like ceramic or insulation.

They could come in insulated, normal, radiant, and radioactive-shielded varieties. The radioactive-shielded varieties should be based on the notion that 100% radioactive containment means 6 inches of lead or 6 feet of concrete.

I would be enthusiastic about large such constructs that interacted with several tiles to allow more varied thermodynamic interactions with stored solids. Compared to storage bins which always restrict the interactions of up to 20 tonnes of stuff to a single tile; I am thinking of this again in the context of averaging the contents rather than simulating the interaction of each pile of stuff with each contact tile.

I would be happy with some hi-tek versions which have built in conveyor inputs and outputs and automation modeled on the liquid/gas storage tanks.

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On 3/19/2021 at 6:24 AM, Unfawkable said:

The game already had an overabundance of power production

There's no such thing.  If you wouldn't build another electrolyzer when you're already producing a surplus of oxygen or another bristle berry farm when you're already producing a surplus of food, why would you build another power generator if you're already producing a surplus of energy?

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10 hours ago, n_t_p said:

These are all terrible ideas and none of this has anything to do with spaced out.

IMHO "Spaced out" is the latest version of the game, the base game and the dlc are in the process of being merged together by Klei. Due to the ongoing development transition of the old base game ( which used to be played in 1 map ) probably becoming an asteroid world partitioned play-style of many maps ( including maybe playing inside rockets in the base game ), I see no effective difference of people either posting ideas in the forum`s base game section or here in the dlc area. The lines are blurry...as its an ongoing base game conversion.

With respect, if one`s stated ideas are defined as terrible it would, in my opinion, be helpful to receive a constructive written statement which ideas are terrible and why they are terrible. People have put a lot of love and time in to describing their ideas. Its always easier to destroy, than to create. :afro:

@n_t_p@DaClown

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