Heat deletion in "Space exposure"

[Vultor]

Planets without atmosphere are like deserts: hot days and cold nights.

I would say that the game will be better if it deletes thermal energy in objects with space exposure and add thermal energy in objects hitted by the sun.

[sakura_sk]

19 minutes ago, Vultor said:

I would say that the game will be better if it deletes thermal energy in objects with space exposure and add thermal energy in objects hitted by the sun.

Wouldn't that mean constant heating of everything in the map from the top down...? There is no "planet atmosphere" in ONI or a "stationary" gas block so how would your suggestion actually work in game?

[Vultor]

Yes, the temperature will increase from top to bottom during the day and will decrease from top to bottom during the night.

This rate of increasing/decreasing temperature could be different from one planet to another.

[Sasza22]

If we had thermal radiation as a way to exchange heat in vacuum it would fix the issue with the surface getting super hot. With proper balance it could remove more heat during the night than add during the day allowing meteor and rocket exhaust heat to dissipate eventually. But for it to be balanced it should only affect the top tiles of the map (the ones that get exposed to sunlight).

[Vultor]

Yes, thermal radiation could be hard to implement, but just delete on "Space exposure" tiles seems possible.

And to me it should affect just the "Space biome", no problem. Of course here we could do human interaction trapping or intensifying this process. It's the global warming of the ONI world.

[babba]

13 hours ago, Vultor said:

Yes, thermal radiation could be hard to implement, but just delete on "Space exposure" tiles seems possible.

And to me it should affect just the "Space biome", no problem. Of course here we could do human interaction trapping or intensifying this process. It's the global warming of the ONI world.

These great thread ideas could work in combo with "Rain" described here ( including lightning ) ...were my idea is to add resources to the top of an asteroid by raining-in-new-resources. So a kind of new geyser called renewable "Rain". These new added rain resources, depending on the asteroid or other criterias, could either add cold or hot new resources by raining down.

15 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

Wouldn't that mean constant heating of everything in the map from the top down...? There is no "planet atmosphere" in ONI or a "stationary" gas block so how would your suggestion actually work in game?

Klei could create little "Mini gas spawns" on some asteroid surfaces, which are 1x1 tile size and erupt gasses in to space...In order to give asteroids an atmosphere gassing off in to space.

Surface mini gas spawns, creating an off-gassing atmosphere

So imagine it all working in combo: Space radiation caused surface heat/coldness, rain & mini gas surface spawns

For simplification this threads space temperature radiation could be called: Infrared light ( coming from deep space )

On 3/13/2021 at 2:37 AM, babba said:

...Perhaps we could have several weather conditions per planet, where various materials rain down ?

Maybe raining graphite, iron splinters, uranium, lava, coal or whatever... could also create electric storms on asteroid surfaces with electric discharges and lightning

  Material rain causing electric discharges on asteroids

Asteroid water rain or other fluids ... @Ipsquiggle

...could also create serious colony flooding if no proper airlock had been built by the player

[sakura_sk]

32 minutes ago, babba said:

Klei could create little "Mini gas spawns", which are 1x1 tile size and erupt gasses in to space...

I get scared every time I see Klei tweaking gasses... I remember a certain "floating vacuum" bug (that appeared for less than an hour until it was fixed) which killed one of my early colonies   

I would also prefer to run the game on a regular pc and not a supercomputer  (I don't know how hard simulating all that would be -atmosphere, rain, constant extreme cold/heat- but I would expect tremendous memory drain at least.. )

[babba]

9 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

I get scared every time I see Klei tweaking gasses... I remember a certain "floating vacuum" bug (that appeared for less than an hour until it was fixed) which killed one of my early colonies   

I would also prefer to run the game on a regular pc and not a supercomputer  (I don't know how hard simulating all that would be -atmosphere, rain, constant extreme cold/heat- but I would expect tremendous memory drain at least.. )

All these ideas here could be the reason why there still is no "Regolith raining down" in the dlc ... I am praying !!!

Keep more ideas coming...Make Papa Klei Smurf read it all

[SharraShimada]

Not really. Yes pure rocks in space are cold on the dark side, but object that produce heat wont dissipate them completely In a vacuum you only have the option to get rid of heat via radiation, nothing else. An object in space can still overheat when its IR-dissipation-capability is too bad. 

[Vultor]

Ok, no problem, there are some gases that also absorb IR energy better than others ("Greenhouse gases").

We could have a radiation parameter for each material.

If the planetoid has atmosphere, I guess there should be new solutions to where you dump that amount of CO2 that you produce. Hehe.

[DaClown]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:03 AM, SharraShimada said:

Not really. Yes pure rocks in space are cold on the dark side, but object that produce heat wont dissipate them completely In a vacuum you only have the option to get rid of heat via radiation, nothing else. An object in space can still overheat when its IR-dissipation-capability is too bad. 

This is not true. Most materials when exposed to vacuum spontaneously off/out gas. This has to do with complex interactions of the vacuum with the material like extreme changes to the triple points of materials; there are significant quantum mechanical effects that become non-negligible at the vacuum conditions.

In a similar way that high pressure moves to low pressure, the heat of a massive object moves towards vacuum. This movement of heat is rather extreme. When high pressure moves to vacuum, you can launch baseballs are supersonic speeds; this exploits the phenomena called explosive decompression. Vacuum is weirdly like a perfect insulator but it is also the coldest theoretical medium possible (some people would argue against this based on notions of "heat" that require something cold to have non-zero mass but there are reasonable theoretical responses to this based on the fact that vacuum has non-zero but near zero mass as described in the Dirac sea or virtual particle models); the heat in the asteroid would move towards the surface and the extreme temperature caused from solar exposure (depending somewhat on distance) would boil/sublimate materials at the surface resulting in non-zero evaporative cooling of the asteroid. Evaporative cooling is among the most efficient cooling methods available in physics. The degree of this evaporative cooling would depend on the composition of the surface exposed materials and how they react to vacuum conditions.

In microgravity, the off gassing of materials into vacuum results in the gas entering into or escaping orbit.

Neat summary.

The temperature cycles of the surface of the Moon is a good model that is relatively well understood. The lunar surface has a thin layer of gases and dust that form an exosphere and over time boils materials off into free space cooling the surface.

Radiation certainly plays an important part in this heating and cooling cycle.

[Sasza22]

That`s a good explaination right there. The thing is we are talking about a simulation. It is ok to simplify stuff, it`s actually required. But problems appear when the simulation is wildly different from reality and common sense expectations. That`s what is happening with space thermal transfer in ONI. We expect the surface to heat up during the day and cool back down during the night. Moreso we expect heat reated by meteors and rocket launches to dissipate as well. It jus doesn`t happen atm.

Another thing adding to the problem is the unrealistic day and night times so the thrmal exchange values cannot be realistic or it wouldn`t work as expected. IMO the simulation should be as simple as possible so it`s easy to understand how it works ad doesn`t require too much calculations. That`s why i suggest the top tiles of on the map to act like exchanging heat with a phantom tile above them.

[DaClown]

On 3/19/2021 at 5:40 PM, Sasza22 said:

That`s a good explaination right there. The thing is we are talking about a simulation. It is ok to simplify stuff, it`s actually required. But problems appear when the simulation is wildly different from reality and common sense expectations. That`s what is happening with space thermal transfer in ONI. We expect the surface to heat up during the day and cool back down during the night. Moreso we expect heat reated by meteors and rocket launches to dissipate as well. It jus doesn`t happen atm.

Another thing adding to the problem is the unrealistic day and night times so the thrmal exchange values cannot be realistic or it wouldn`t work as expected. IMO the simulation should be as simple as possible so it`s easy to understand how it works ad doesn`t require too much calculations. That`s why i suggest the top tiles of on the map to act like exchanging heat with a phantom tile above them.

My point in laying all that out is that, while thermal radiation has been almost entirely absent from ONI prior to Spaced Out and the radiation update, the mechanics for sublimation exist in part already in the game. The suggested mechanics by Vultor are both simple and effective at simulating the non-radiative process of surface heating and cooling due to space and solar exposure.

Either the temperature of things exposed to space but not exposed to solar radiation could decrease to simulate the outgassing process or the materials exposed to space could sublimate into their liquid or gas forms at some slow but non-zero rate; the solar light exposure would need to heat the surface by some amount of course. Neither of these things should be any more computationally intensive than what already is happening in the swamp or slime biomes.

For accuracy, it might be nice to simulate the dynamic triple points of materials based on heat and pressure, but it would require an overhaul of fundamental game mechanics having to do with mass-tile-cell interactions which I wouldn't wish upon the devs without paying them considerably more for the effort.

[Banastor]

If you really want to "simulate" radiation and thermal atmospheric mechanics in a cheap way, you could just simply make vacuum "tiles" in ONI have a "hidden" mass, conductivity and temperature, then, you could add an invisible cold heat sink in the top of the map. Finally, when a tile is illuminated with sunlight (so, this will only happen with a small number of tiles) it can be programmed that it will generate a certain amount of heat.

You do not really need to simulate radiation in other cases because the process in most cases is negligible. Maybe it will be also necessary to change gases so when a certain threshold of low mass is reached, thermal calculations will consider always a fixed amount of mass (this is to avoid having low mass gas tiles with better insulating properties than vacuum).