Research Extension

[ONI-FAN]

So, since research just ends and then there is no more use for it I decided to think of a way of extending it.

1. This one is easy, add a Research Lab room type

2. This next part requires a bit more explaining   Add infinite research.

How this can be done would be research to improve efficiencies.  There are several ways to do this:

a. Improve thermal characteristics, i.e. a jumbo battery expends 1.25K heat. Research to improve it .01 at a shot, after 20 research efforts it would only expend 1.05K.  There are dozens of heat producing items to improve. 

b.  Improve Time bonuses, i.e. critter grooming station effects last longer by 1%.  Same for Power stations or farm station, etc. Non-stacking, more points per new level.

c. Increase capacity, i.e pipes/vents can carry more substance - Max capacity per Unit pipe.

d. Faster pumps, i.e. substances flows faster, something like 1% a pop seems reasonable without breaking gameplay or fun.

e. Longer lasting medicine.  Sick of taking dailies.  now they last 1% longer - do it again and again for more gains

f. Larger capacity refining.  More stuff gets converted at a shot.

g. Storage Space - who wouldn't want bins to hold a bit more stuff.

h.  I am sure there are more, but this is what I have for now.  Anyone else think of some options?

These bonuses can get smaller too with longer efforts, but it keeps your researchers busy.  Also, the effect could be automatic or it could require an "upgrade" (like the power tuneup?) 

[Sasza22]

Maybe they could bring back the space data banks for something like that. You could produce them via telescope and use to speed up rockets or create fast routes between planets (maybe also extending the range). This would add an almost infinite research and take care of the old buildings unused in the dlc.

[TheKilltech]

Unfortunately like a few other attributes, research and science skills are unfortunately a dead end. they are in high demand at the start of the game but are never used once the research tree is done.

So science dupes, need a job for later on. Yeah, researching any kind of improvements to building processing efficiency makes a lot of sense. However, i'd suggest that it only comes as a temporary buff rather than a permanent bonus (so science will always be needed!). but any such buff should last for a substantial amount of time. also they should apply to a single building rather than to globally. i wouldn't mind if being able to apply such a buff would require to research something first. 

Hmm, it would be cool if towards the end game most processing buildings could be buffed to a degree where they to stop destry mass and making resource recycling possible.

maybe science could also be applied to geysers and volcanos? research dupes might have the ability to accelerate or slow down next idle phases perhaps.

[JaxckLl]

I'll quote one of my other posts, discussing this exact topic,

Quote

 

* Finally the tech tree also needs some tweaks. As of right now, tech rushing is far, far too important. There are some trees which are absolutely essential, usually only for one important building (such as Liquid Reservoirs & Steam Turbines, or Automation Wires & Atmo Sensors). This ends up making other trees dominated options, in particular rocketry, medicine, and morale. The Prototype system I outlined above would make tech rushing no longer essential, as the player would have access to these late game technologies in a limited capacity. This allows the player to focus on other things, and potentially shake up their general research order from playthrough to playthrough. If I get a Steam Turbine prototype early, I no longer need to invest time & resources into rushing the Steam Turbine research to set up a cooling loop. I'll need the research for my second cooling loop and my industrial brick, but that I can do at my leisure rather than feeling like I need to keep continuously researching.

* There's three things that prevent a player from building something in ONI, resources, research, or initiative. We've already discussed the first two, so let me explain what I mean by initiative. ONI is a very complex game and so many systems are interconnected that one relatively small step forward often requires three or four other steps forward to provide the essential infrastructure. A bathroom loop doesn't just need pipes & toilets, it also needs a Sieve, it also needs Water Reservoirs, it also needs a pipe-bridge priority sink. A basic bathroom loop requires half a dozen researches and three layers of infrastructure (clean Water pipes, PWater pipes, wires). More complex builds require dramatically more investment of thought & focus on the part of the player, they require initiative. The current balance of ONI makes resources & initiative the limiting factors because research is so unengaging.

* A suggestion that has come up for how to make research engaging is to add Satellites to the starmap. Satellites would be extremely expensive to launch, or can be repaired from broken satellites that will randomly spawn. Satellites provide Telescope vision of the starmap, but their primary job is to provide Cosmic Research Data to your colony. Most late game techs now require some amount of Cosmic Research Data, only a minimal amount of which is provided to the player pre-Satellites (I'd imagine Telescopes provide a trickle, and Rocket Launches would provide a small burst). Cosmic Research Data would require the new Satellite Uplink to be built in Space, attached to a Cosmic Research Station via automation wires. The Cosmic Research Station creates the new "Science Lab" building which increases the efficiency of other forms of research and allows Cosmic Data to be spent on higher tier researches. Cosmic Data can also be spent to print Coupons, making Satellites an attractive as well as necessary investment.

 

That out of the way, let me look at your suggestions

• I agree, a "Research Lab" would be FAB, especially if the high end techs were far more difficult to acquire.
• I don't think infinite research is appropriate for ONI. ONI abstracts out a lot of things, but generally speaking the conversions between materials have a fixed maximum efficiency. This is more "realistic" than how other builder games handle resources (most notably Factorio), but it also means that there are certain design limits which cannot be worked around without a near total rebalance of an entire resource chain. A 5% shift in the energy efficiency of Water to Ice would enable Ice-based cooling of an entire base, or potentially an Ice-based Steam-creation method which trades dupe time for power. I don't feel the specific nature of infinite research fits the fixed nature of the game design of ONI.
• All that being said, I like a bunch of your ideas a lot. Instead of making them infinite however, I'd sprinkle these as bonuses throughout the tech tree and enable a repeatable research at the end of each tree. There's loads of space for anything which relates directly to dupes to scale to ludicrous levels (after all, that's how dupe skills work). Literally any station, anything consumed by a dupe, or any cycle in which a dupe must be involved can have scaling tech. Thermal characteristics? Not so much.
• Scalable bonuses which function like dupe skills (perhaps providing a bonus which scales inversely with dupe skill. A Mechanics Handbook upgrades all dupes to 5 Tinkering, but doesn't help dupes who are naturally talented). This would have the advantage of making new dupes taken late in to a playthrough no longer such a liability compared to your starting handful.
• Specifically calling out Storage Space. There's a mod in the workshop which multiple the storage buildings x10. Oh boy do I wish that was a default option. Building & managing huge storage arrays isn't interesting gameplay, especially when you're playing on "No Sweat" with "Fast Dupes" to avoid just such blockages in development.

[ONI-FAN]

16 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

 speed up rockets or create fast routes between planets (maybe also extending the range). This would add an almost infinite research and take care of the old buildings unused in the dlc.

I certainly could see this idea extended into Rocketry, i.e. speed, range, carrying capacity, etc.  Nice thought!

16 hours ago, TheKilltech said:

However, i'd suggest that it only comes as a temporary buff rather than a permanent bonus (so science will always be needed!). but any such buff should last for a substantial amount of time. also they should apply to a single building rather than to globally. i wouldn't mind if being able to apply such a buff would require to research something first.

maybe science could also be applied to geysers and volcanos? research dupes might have the ability to accelerate or slow down next idle phases perhaps.

Buffs could work for those mechanics that can't be permanent else they break the balance, like JaxckLi mentioned.  These certainly could work for the Stations, like Engie's Tuneup, Farm Fertilizers, or Grooming stations etc.

Mechanics for volcanos and geysers is a whole other topic for suggestions, but to keep this short if we make them more like Crude Oil works then the system employed could certainly get buffs from research.  Good thinking.

[gabberworld]

i think research is too easy in this game

[ONI-FAN]

15 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

As of right now, tech rushing is far, far too important. There are some trees which are absolutely essential, usually only for one important building (such as Liquid Reservoirs & Steam Turbines, or Automation Wires & Atmo Sensors). This ends up making other trees dominated options, in particular rocketry, medicine, and morale. The Prototype system I outlined above would make tech rushing no longer essential, as the player would have access to these late game technologies in a limited capacity. This allows the player to focus on other things, and potentially shake up their general research orde

Sorry I missed your post, I did search for posts.  Was your post in Spaced Out or Vanilla?  Regardless, thanks for posting, a lot to unpack here...

You mentioned prototypes, early access to tech with research making it better or allowing more of it.  This is a cool idea, let me try to combine our ideas.  Take the Jumbo battery for example.  The typical stats could be the final stats, but a prototype that say, only stores 30kJ, loses 4kj a day has a heat of 2.5kDTU and takes up 800 Ore, may be available right away, but the research can improve the stats in a better way to get the battery improved, without breaking the game.  Would this work in your opinion?

[gabberworld]

i think research is too easy in this game

[JaxckLl]

@ONI-FAN: Here's the link to my post.

The idea of Prototypes is that they are higher tier tech (such as Steam Turbines, Liquid Reservoirs, Solar Panels, etc) which can be made with lower tier resources a limited number of times. A Solar Panel prototype might cost 4000kg Algae & 500kg Copper Ore, and be acquired at cycle 25. Prototypes would be semi-randomized (ala Geysers), and provide a smoothing of the overall researching experience (I'd imagine every asteroid would have 1-2 fixed prototype capsules which has a very high chance to be a prescribed building. For example you might be guaranteed to get the tech to build at least one Aquatuner/Turbine cooling loop, although the cost & location of those prototypes will vary from playthrough to playthrough). Most prototypes however would be found in space capsules on the starmap, which can be collected with any rocket. They'd serve as a unique incentive to develop early game rocketry.

[ONI-FAN]

9 hours ago, gabberworld said:

i think research is too easy in this game

Research isn't meant to be hard, persay, it is just time and resource intensive.  The ideas presented here are to keep giving the option of using time and resources to get further bonuses in a way that keep the researcher useful as the game moves past the current research tree.

8 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

@ONI-FAN: Here's the link to my post.

The idea of Prototypes is that they are higher tier tech (such as Steam Turbines, Liquid Reservoirs, Solar Panels, etc) which can be made with lower tier resources a limited number of times. A Solar Panel prototype might cost 4000kg Algae & 500kg Copper Ore, and be acquired at cycle 25. Prototypes would be semi-randomized (ala Geysers), and provide a smoothing of the overall researching experience (I'd imagine every asteroid would have 1-2 fixed prototype capsules which has a very high chance to be a prescribed building. For example you might be guaranteed to get the tech to build at least one Aquatuner/Turbine cooling loop, although the cost & location of those prototypes will vary from playthrough to playthrough). Most prototypes however would be found in space capsules on the starmap, which can be collected with any rocket. They'd serve as a unique incentive to develop early game rocketry.

Thanks for the link.  Finding tech could be fun, especially if it is not as good as it can be if you put research effort into it.  Prototype Steam Turbines only produce 600Watts, for example, until you put in the effort to enhance the effort.

Finding premade loops and whatnot would be fun too.  I liked that in Spaced Out on the second asteroid there were some cool base remnants.  I appreciate that new feature.  I found a broken power plant, bedroom and bathroom.  It would be cool to find stuff like that and use it even if I didn't have the tech...

[gabberworld]

2 minutes ago, ONI-FAN said:

Research isn't meant to be hard, persay, it is just time and resource intensive.  The ideas presented here are to keep giving the option of using time and resources to get further bonuses in a way that keep the researcher useful as the game moves past the current research tree.

 

well its still too easy, i think higher levels research  needs also more recurses for complete not only dirt and water

[gabberworld]

On 1/8/2021 at 10:45 PM, ONI-FAN said:

 This next part requires a bit more explaining   Add infinite research.

 

 

i to like this idea tho, also in factorio game have that

[ONI-FAN]

23 hours ago, gabberworld said:

well its still too easy, i think higher levels research  needs also more recurses for complete not only dirt and water

More resources?  Any suggestions?  If you wanted it to be more intense you could require my suggested "Research lab" room type, which would add a building element to research.  Also, I think any ol' dupe can research (At least I think it is like this atm) in which case you could require the skills to do research before you can work the lab...

As I am thinking though, you could require the resources of the items in the tech itself to actually research that particular set of tech...  That would make things more interesting at least.  You could feed the resources into the research lab and it would fill up a progress bar on the tech panel, then once it is full you could actually do the research for the tech itself.  Could work... thoughts?

[gabberworld]

6 hours ago, ONI-FAN said:

More resources?  Any suggestions?

 

need use steel,sulfur instead off dirt for example , also example instead off water there is  need use liquid oxygen

[Yunru]

On 1/9/2021 at 12:21 AM, TheKilltech said:

Unfortunately like a few other attributes, research and science skills are unfortunately a dead end. they are in high demand at the start of the game but are never used once the research tree is done.

Incorrect, research also affects how fast a dupe develops their other skills.

[The Plum Gate]

Some thoughts regarding extended research,

Have a third research station that opens later in the tech tree that will allow third bar type unlocks.

So buildings and tech would open on the first and second bar research, but the third bar could be dedicated to efficiencies or efficacy.

Increase the duration of things like geni's tune up, farmer's touch, etc...

Longer lasting medicine.

A category that improves the efficiency of the entertainment and leisure device power consumption ( ffs ).

Improved ranges on things like sensors and sweeper arms, better storage capacity and performance on the robotic friends.

And so on.

And finally one that improves the resources require for the first two research buildings - I'm surprised no one has complained about this - it really takes quite a bit of dirt and water to finish the research tree.

[JaxckLl]

52 minutes ago, ONI-FAN said:

More resources?  Any suggestions?  If you wanted it to be more intense you could require my suggested "Research lab" room type, which would add a building element to research.  Also, I think any ol' dupe can research (At least I think it is like this atm) in which case you could require the skills to do research before you can work the lab...

As I am thinking though, you could require the resources of the items in the tech itself to actually research that particular set of tech...  That would make things more interesting at least.  You could feed the resources into the research lab and it would fill up a progress bar on the tech panel, then once it is full you could actually do the research for the tech itself.  Could work... thoughts?

I dislike that design. Factorio uses it and it always felt like an excuse to enable continuous production as opposed to a meaningful & interesting design in and of itself. ONI is about converting resources from one form to another, ultimately concluding with Power, Calories, or Oxygen (the unreturnables). Research arguably also fits in that group, albeit in a far more limited manor. I agree that research could be more compelling, but I disagree that it should cost high end resources. 

[ONI-FAN]

2 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

I dislike that design. Factorio uses it and it always felt like an excuse to enable continuous production as opposed to a meaningful & interesting design in and of itself. ONI is about converting resources from one form to another, ultimately concluding with Power, Calories, or Oxygen (the unreturnables). Research arguably also fits in that group, albeit in a far more limited manor. I agree that research could be more compelling, but I disagree that it should cost high end resources. 

I agree with you in general, but if it could be made more compelling then we just need to reason out how to do so.

What about getting a research credit for each skill point a Dupe earns... then each research requires X number of research credits. So, hard work around the colony gets more skills, hence more credits, so the researchers can do the research to get the tech.  This would slow the tech down a bit and force harder player choices about what tech to get next, since you can't just spam them to completion.  Thoughts?

[TheKilltech]

9 hours ago, Yunru said:

Incorrect, research also affects how fast a dupe develops their other skills.

True, and that's part of the problem: the science attribute can only be trained by research errands, yet those are limited. So while this attribute does have a good use case it still suffers from being a dead end in terms of training. Apart from the first dupes in your colony the only way you can get it for later dupes is through starting traits when printing them. 

[The Plum Gate]

2 hours ago, ONI-FAN said:

I agree with you in general, but if it could be made more compelling then we just need to reason out how to do so.

What about getting a research credit for each skill point a Dupe earns... then each research requires X number of research credits. So, hard work around the colony gets more skills, hence more credits, so the researchers can do the research to get the tech.  This would slow the tech down a bit and force harder player choices about what tech to get next, since you can't just spam them to completion.  Thoughts?

And then people will see that they can circumvent the research parameters by simply taking a dupe every cycle and, ..well, you get where that would end up going for a number of people.

[JaxckLl]

3 hours ago, ONI-FAN said:

I agree with you in general, but if it could be made more compelling then we just need to reason out how to do so.

What about getting a research credit for each skill point a Dupe earns... then each research requires X number of research credits. So, hard work around the colony gets more skills, hence more credits, so the researchers can do the research to get the tech.  This would slow the tech down a bit and force harder player choices about what tech to get next, since you can't just spam them to completion.  Thoughts?

I like that idea! I wonder if maybe research should be changed from a prescribed task to a credit system altogether.

• Dupes with no dedicated skills can work at a Research Station to produce blue SCIENCE credits. These credits can be spent on techs. Earning credits raises SCIENCE skill, which in turn improves skill gain more generally.
• Dupes with Researcher skill points can work at a Super Computer to produce purple science credits. The Super Computer creates the "Research Lab" building, and cannot be used outside the Lab. The new "Liquid Can Deployer" building allows for Water to be drawn directly from pipes rather than needing the awkward Pitcher Pump. The Super Computer consumes Dirt & Water.
• Purple credits each require a blue credit, meaning that you will have to maintain & operate Research Stations no matter how many Labs you choose to build.
• The Research Lab can have up to two Research Stations but only one Super Computer. It provides a research credit bonus to Stations, meaning the science stat can be developed faster.
• The final tier is the Satellite Uplink station, which has to be built in its own dedicated "Satellite Control Centre". The Satellite Uplink requires an automation wire be connected to a Satellite Receiver built in space. The Receiver connects to nearby satellites on the starmap, expanding the telescope range and increasing the efficiency of the Satellite Uplink.
• Satellites have to be spaced out, their efficiency declining when placed too close together. They are quite expensive, requiring a substantial investment of Glass, Steel, and Diamonds. They can get hit by meteors and will require repair after an amount of time in space. They can crash into asteroids if pushed by a meteor, or if no maned Satellite Control Centres exist within range.
• Orange credits require purple credits to produce, with the Satellite Uplink's output of orange science credits scaling with the number of connected Satellites. Orange science is needed for some higher tier techs, but it can also be used to upgrade specific machines a limited number of times. Additional orange credits can be spent at the Coupon Printer (which can be built in the Satellite Control Centre) to print out Coupons which can normally only be found in space capsules or more rarely buried on asteroids.
• Coupons can be redeemed at the Printing Pods for a choice of two semi-hidden options of bonus resources. These options are themed, for example a Terran option might provide 3x Hatchling Eggs and a hidden amount of resources (2000kg Algae).

This system makes research a resource positive system in the late game that players are encouraged to continuously develop & toy with (like every other major system in the game). Additionally, this system makes rocketry an essential part of the late game and opens up a 'science rush' strategy which aims to build/repair satellites quickly so as to get access to coupons. Coupons smooth out the resource availability of late game bases, and removes the uncomfortable tension that can come when transitioning between late game resources. The repair & relaunch of satellites also serves as a late game resource sink for high end industrial products, finally letting us make use of continuous production purposefully. Finally, orange credits can be used to provide limited upgrade opportunities on a per machine basis providing an effectively limitless use for science.