Steam still got deleted?

[abud]

I was away from game for quite some time, so I didn't follow latest updated rules about many things. I just noticed my first steam turbine in this playthrough suddenly running out of steam. It has been working about 800-1000 cycles. Originally there is 200kg water inside, so about 10kg steam per tile. Bottom tile is oil. Is this configuration prone to gas deletion or something?

 

I'm using few mod, but nothing had come to mind affecting gas mechanics:

No Manual Delivery, Sweep By Type, Generators Bug Fix, others are just informational like calculated average geyser tooltip and industrial machinery tag. I disabled Bigger camera zoom somewhere midway because turn out my old pc can't handle late game with that mod.

[Nebbie]

With ONI, I just sort of assume any time different elements interact that there will be some deletion at random. Only one element's allowed in each tile, after all. I wouldn't be surprised if even not having the oil, steam turbines would need topping up every now and then due to the adding up of small chances that the water can vanish on output.

[mathmanican]

@abud, these two posts should get you up to speed. 

 

[TheMule]

Quick fix, move the vent up, above the oil layer.

Not so quick fix, what @mathmanican said.

[abud]

 I didn't read this part when you post this, because I just back to the game for 1-2 days that time and still confused about current game problems

On 7/8/2020 at 12:40 AM, mathmanican said:

Mass deletion can occur if the liquid vent drips the incoming 95C water into liquid. Personally, I have seen this occur only on save/load. i plan to avoid dripping into liquid. Mass deletion also occurs in multi gas environments. So don't drop water into a CO2 environment.

And only read bold line up

On 7/8/2020 at 12:40 AM, mathmanican said:

The new update should allow you to

• build a steam turbine any way you want to avoid massive heat deletion.*

Yeah, mass deletion is different than heat deletion.

 

I will move it up like @TheMule said. And need to do this to other steam chambers too, before the bug kills them. Or is it better to just remove the oil and put insulated tile above the vent?

[TheMule]

2 hours ago, abud said:

I will move it up like @TheMule said. And need to do this to other steam chambers too, before the bug kills them. Or is it better to just remove the oil and put insulated tile above the vent?

Having the water exchange heat with only one tile is the best, but it's just an optimization, unless you're counting every single Watt produced, you're not going to notice anything wrong.

I've experienced the mass deletion bug only once, in a very edgy build. I've never seen it in regular build, and it's been months since I started using the submerged vent trick.

2 hours ago, abud said:

  On 7/7/2020 at 7:40 PM, mathmanican said:

Mass deletion can occur if the liquid vent drips the incoming 95C water into liquid. 

This makes me wonder. I thought it was a submerged vent that caused the problem. Is it generically dripping it instead? In that case, @abud need to move the vent up and build a tile under it.

[abud]

This example from @mathmanican in that post to avoid 3 bugs, should be easy fix for my turbine.

But not my other turbines, where the vent not in corner. Well, it still good that I notice it before all my turbine falls apart

 

[impyre]

2 hours ago, abud said:

Yeah, mass deletion is different than heat deletion.

ehh.... I'd like to see you delete one without deleting the other.  But in all honesty, heat "deletion" can either mean "deleting" mass that has a lot of heat, or just removing the heat with something like a sauna or steam turbine...

[JRup]

Hi!
I also had a case of vanishing steam, I decided to remove oil where not necessary to avoid the interaction of water-drip and petroleum.

Looking at your setup, you fortunately have a 3 tile high steam chamber... So my take would be to move the liquid vent 1 tile up and build a tile underneath that and that would have no oil on top... Just my 2¢ on this one.

Regards.

 

 

[mathmanican]

5 hours ago, TheMule said:

This makes me wonder. I thought it was a submerged vent that caused the problem. Is it generically dripping it instead?

I can replicate mass deletion with the tile in the liquid, or above the liquid. If you vent stuff over a mesh tile, then it never drips and has to be pushed above the crude (but then the mesh tile acts as debris and can heat up insulated tiles quite rapidly). 

4 hours ago, abud said:

avoid 3 bugs

Unfortunately, the phase change bug is only avoided if there is zero heat exchange between the gas and solid tile.  Even insulated ceramic is probably not enough, and you cannot avoid the bug 100% unless you have insulated insulation. This is new stuff, learned since that post, by @ghkbrew (see here if you want more details). 

What @JRup said would work great, or build a tile to the side and block the crude from interacting with the fresh water. 

6 hours ago, TheMule said:

I've experienced the mass deletion bug only once, in a very edgy build. I've never seen it in regular build, and it's been months since I started using the submerged vent trick.

For me the bug appears on save/load. If you start with a large amount of mass, you may never notice any issue at all, as you don't save/load enough to ever recognize it. It also doesn't always trigger on load. Without decompiling and tracing the entire algorithm through, I don't really know how to proceed to find out what causes the issue  

[Nebbie]

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

...

Unfortunately, the phase change bug is only avoided if there is zero heat exchange between the gas and solid tile.  Even insulated ceramic is probably not enough, and you cannot avoid the bug 100% unless you have insulated insulation. This is new stuff, learned since that post, by @ghkbrew (see here if you want more details). 

...

I yearn for the day a bog-standard AT+ST build can exist with all the game mechanics working exactly as intended. In the meantime, it's good to hear that I at least don't need to put down a layer of petroleum; I always felt that that layer was a little weird to have.

[JRup]

9 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I always felt that that layer was a little weird to have.

I had gathered that it was mostly for AT's to have a better heat transfer medium than just steam (Petroleums TC is 2 vs Steam's 0.184)
 

Then again, I'd like to know how it works with transformers and batteries (I kinda recall there being something fishy with transformers batteries and kilns in a vacuum with just some liquid as transfer medium)

 

 

[mathmanican]

31 minutes ago, JRup said:

I kinda recall there being something fishy with transformers batteries and kilns in a vacuum with just some liquid as transfer medium

Just make sure the mass is large enough, and you're fine. If the mass drops below 1500g, then the "excess heat" generated is clamped. 

Spoiler

 

 

[Steve8]

1 hour ago, JRup said:

I had gathered that it was mostly for AT's to have a better heat transfer medium than just steam
 

It was about both. So the petroleum can still help in some situations. Having a layer of petroleum on the bottom also lets you easily make two tile high steam chambers by putting some water on top.

[Nebbie]

1 hour ago, JRup said:

I had gathered that it was mostly for AT's to have a better heat transfer medium than just steam (Petroleums TC is 2 vs Steam's 0.184)
...

It's really not necessary most of the time. Once you've got a ton of steam across every tile, a steel AT should get its heat drawn off pretty rapidly.
I'd consider petroleum a must if using a gold amalgam AT (something I've done once as a challenge in base building, to have a cooling solution prior to getting steel, but wouldn't generally recommend).

[JRup]

By re-reading the whole thread I kinda feel like the kid in class that repeated the joke, only louder... I saw that @TheMule had already suggested shifting the vent up and tiling...

I guess I only added avoiding petro & water drip interaction.

On that subject, I saw this happening fairly often on my prior build that lost steam before I 'fixed' it (it's stable now)... Now I can't help but wonder if not (only) steam but water is what is going AWOL ... This behaviour happened randomly on the petro layer on that build and the steam used to deplete from right to left... Steam mass would eventually disappear without generating so many drips like these but would happen often...

 

2 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I'd consider petroleum a must if using a gold amalgam AT

Makes me wonder how much thought went into making gold amalgam's TC low enough to make it need better cooling... (It shows quickly enough with a hot tub made out of that stuff - felt trolled by devs that one time)

 

[Nebbie]

24 minutes ago, JRup said:

...

Makes me wonder how much thought went into making gold amalgam's TC low enough to make it need better cooling... (It shows quickly enough with a hot tub made out of that stuff - felt trolled by devs that one time)

...

I doubt they made gold amalgam's TC low for this one specific thing. It's actually somewhat useful overall having it low (certain buildings you don't want conducting heat with their contents or surroundings much, but want the extra overheat range).
The thing that perplexes me is why aquatuners aren't made out of refined metals to begin with. Ores have low TCs in general, which is the opposite of what you want, and it seems like a fairly advanced building. It's not like there'd really be any problem with players getting them too early on most* maps, since lead isn't exactly a good idea.

*Badlands is an exception, because it has refined iron sitting around all over the place. If ATs used refined metal instead of ores, then you could actually rush cooling on Badlands, which would be rather interesting as a new playstyle.

[Hasasi]

@abud By any chance do you have a set of chambers of steam or a big chamber of steam nearby? 

I ask because in my current game I have one big steam room and a smaller one inside that and both are losing steam.

All other steam rooms in the game are ok.

[mathmanican]

5 hours ago, Hasasi said:

I have one big steam room and a smaller one inside that and both are losing steam.

Care to post a screenshot?  I'll happily look into this. 

[abud]

@Hasasi this is the biggest one currently working on my play. I already fixed this one, except phase change bug. Probably it was deleting steam before but I didn't notice because higher steam pressure. Since I fixed it, I didn't notice any pressure changed.

[Hasasi]

@mathmanican Sure, and a close up. Both rooms are losing steam. I am al cycle 1611 an I build it at cycle ~300. The big room drops water one over a glass tile and other over an obsidian tile.

The small room drops water over a insulated sandstone tile. I just tested the small room with 30 Kg steam at 300 C and after 2 cycles it disappeared completely and it's now a vacuum.

 

@abud Thanks, I try placing a tile just below the liquid vent.

[bobe17]

Try to remove the gas at the bottom (sour gas ?)

[JRup]

Hi!

I have a feeling that most if not all of the threads covering disappearing steam will become a post your build kind of thing. I definitely don't mind peeking into other builds, there's always something interesting and definitely underscores the value of screenshots.

Two major takeaways I've gathered at this point in time will be as follows, let me know if I've missed anything:

• Don't mix gases. (Steam & whatever destiny planned for you)
• Drip the returning water from the turbines on a tile that does not have any other fluid i.e.: the usual crude-petro-naptha

 

[Hasasi]

@bobe17 The gas on the small room is only steam and it disappears. I will try removing the other gases in the large room nonetheless. 

[JRup]

It appears you have some overlap with your turbines... the one I've highlighted may be responsible for extracting the steam from the small room: