When does a powered machine output heat?

[MrStoned]

If i have a machine, lets say a rock crusher, it outputs +16kdtu when used.

 

But, does a powered machine output any heat when not in use but connected to power grid?

Is there an advantage to connect it to a powerswith that disables the machine if no dupe is around?

I have started to use more dupe-detectors to only light up areas when dupes are there working to save on both energy as well as heatgeneration.

[dearmad]

No heat when not in use afaict.

 

 

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, dearmad said:

No heat when not in use

=> A higher tinkering skill results in some tasks producing less heat and consume less power. [Like crushing 100kg of rock.]

 

[I did the math a while ago to know what it takes to make a metal refnery/steam turbine loop power positive. Maybe someone has it somewhere he could copy paste it.^^ To make it short it´s mostly about when aluminum becomes power positive.]]

[MrStoned]

Thanks. Sorry for late response, i did not get a notice from the forum.

[mathmanican]

On 8/10/2019 at 5:34 PM, Lilalaunekuh said:

I did the math a while ago to know what it takes to make a metal refnery/steam turbine loop power positive. Maybe someone has it somewhere he could copy paste it.^^ To make it short it´s mostly about when aluminum becomes power positive.]

I've spent way too long looking for this. Any idea on the time frame (a month ago, a year ago)? Any extra details on specifics that I can use to track it down? Or I can just let it slide.  Most of the time I can find stuff, but this one is evading me.  

[Lilalaunekuh]

2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

I've spent way too long looking for this.

I know I read something which made me think about a metal refinery / steam turbine setup here in this forum in the last year.

Even if you find this topic, you will only find some test values for different tinkering skills there. (And my math should be buried in an unamed text document somewhere. Most of these files consist of just calculations and wrote down ingame values without any words attached^^)

 

But if we want to go down the rabbit hole:

Spoiler

Assumptions (correct me if one of them is wrong, some of the data is pulled out of the oni wiki):

• A Metal Refinery needs 40s for one batch.
• The tinkering skill increases the tinkering speed by 10%.
  • The maximum tinkeringspeed should be:
    • 100%[duplicant] + 200%[attributes] + 60%[skills] + 60% [traits: grease monkey + night owl at night time^^] = 420%
    • ??? Not sure how light workspace is applied???
• A Steam Turbine converts 1kDTU into 0,9786 watts of power.
• A Metal Refinery ouputs only 80% of the produced heat into the coolant, but I asume a simple cooling loop so we can harvest 100% of the generated heat.
• A Metal Refinery outputs 1000 times the shown heat value. [=> 117M DTU for one batch of steel ...]

 

 

Refining Steel:

(117 000 kDTU / batch) * (0,9786W/kDTU) = ~114 000 W / batch

A duplicant without any tinkering bonus results in a power consumption of 48 000W for the Metal Refinery. [Igonoring the cooling loop.]

=> Refining a batch of steel can produce up to 66kW (With a tinkering skill of 0.)

[If we work without a cooling loop and (ab)use the fixed output temperature of the metal. Considering only the heat directly added to the coolant. We can still produce up to 53kW.]

 

 

Now the interesting part:

Refining Aluminium:

If we could move all the generated heat into the coolant, we could produce ~7,2kW of power.

[If we only consider looping the liquid ouput through the steam chamber we lose 3,8kW for each batch.

But even with a tinkering skill of 1 refining aluminium would be energy positive.]

 

Refining Gold:

If we could move all the generated heat into the coolant, we would need a duplicant with a tinkering skill of at least 28 to make this power positive. [Only with the traits "grease monkey", "early bird" or "night owl" possible to achieve, ignoring lights.]

If lit workspace works additively a duplicant without any special traits and a tinkering skill of 26 could generate 125W processing one batch.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that I asumed a perfectly insulated steam chamber and a powerless cooling loop for the metal refinery and steam turbine.

 

 

[bobucles]

There's a pretty easy way to measure recipe duration in game. Charge up a few batteries, cut it off from the rest of the circuit, and run the recipe off battery power. The recipe will stop draining power when it is finished, and the energy drain is how long it went.

For example if 60000 battery power on a metal refinery drains down to 30000, that's a 25 second recipe. (for example, not real numbers!)

Unfortunately, just because a machine is on doesn't mean it's consuming power, but that's another issue entirely.

[cblack]

If the goal is to use a metal refinery for power production, it seems ultimately self defeating.  That is, as they use the metal refinery more, they gain more tinkering, thus producing less heat when they use it.  Though I suppose if it uses proportionally less power, it could still be a net positive, but then they're less efficient time-wise.  But I think tinkering affects speed of using the machine as well, so...

Honestly there are almost certainly better ways to generate power.  It would still be nice to have a refund on whatever you use, but to do that practically you're best off using something with a high boiling point (oil/petroleum), as it makes it much easier to extract the energy.

[Lilalaunekuh]

4 hours ago, cblack said:

thus producing less heat when they use it.

Seems you didn´t read all my math.

A shorther production time effects only the 16k DTU / s heat produced while operating.

[Even when we refine gold amlagam and need the "standart" 40s, will the "time based heat production of the metal refinery" be less than 5% of the total heat generation.]

 

If you would have a tinkering skill of 0 [not considering a sick duplicant^^] refining a batch takes 40s.

=> You generate 640kDTU of heat based on the operation time.

=> A Steam turbine could convert this into 626W.

=>So the time based heat production isn´t even enough to justify running the Metal Refinery for even one additional second.

 

4 hours ago, cblack said:

It would still be nice to have a refund on whatever you use, but to do that practically you're best off using something with a high boiling point (oil/petroleum), as it makes it much easier to extract the energy.

You can make every refining process (even gold amalgam) energy positive using a steam turbine.

Spoiler

[Running a metal refinery / steam turbine loop is only possible if you at least use crude oil or petroleum^^]

To make even gold amalgam heat positive for a "regular duplicant" you need to loop the excess heat produced by the metal refinery and steam turbine. But it still requires a duplicant with a tinker skill of 26 and the lit workspace buff.

Regular duplicant: Neither having the "grease monkey", "early bird" or "night owl" trait.

 

 

 

[bobucles]

8 hours ago, cblack said:

That is, as they use the metal refinery more, they gain more tinkering, thus producing less heat when they use it

No one gets heat from the 16kDTUs of the metal refinery. The REAL heat output from the metal refinery happens to the coolant. The heat is HUGE, and it's a fixed amount. Metal refineries easily pump out thousands of kDTUs, and the only real limit is their ability to pump in more coolant.

[cblack]

Yeah, I didn't see that tinkering only affects the machine heat gen, not coolant heat.  I'm going to set up a loop with mine now, though I don't really care about the power; only the ability to easily remove the heat.  The only problem might be the lowish TC and SHC of petroleum, but as long as I keep my steam cool enough I don't think it'll be an issue.

[bobucles]

There's a full list of coolant values on the wiki. Petroleum is extremely effective as coolant, offering both an excellent high temperature limit and good heat capacity to go with it. You will have no trouble dumping the heat into a steam turbine.

Spoiler

 

How many times coolant can be used before cooling is required (values below 1 cannot safely be used) Collapse

Coolant	Practicality
	Gold	Copper	Tungsten	Aluminum	Iron	Steel
Carbon	34.429	11.315	10.035	8.056	6.775	3.888
Carbon Dioxide	0.461	0.152	0.134	0.107	0.091	0.052
Chlorine	1.316	0.432	0.383	0.307	0.259	0.149
Copper	21.670	7.122	6.316	5.07	4.264	2.447
Crude Oil	28.533	9.377	8.316	6.676	5.615	3.222
Ethanol	18.476	6.072	6.308	4.323	3.635	2.086
Gold	8.780	2.886	2.559	2.054	1.728	0.992
Hydrogen	1.181	0.388	0.344	0.276	0.232	0.133
Iron	20.753	6.820	6.049	4.856	4.084	2.344
Sulfur	6.036	1.984	1.759	1.412	1.188	0.682
Magma	36.076	11.856	10.515	8.441	7.099	4.074
Methane	2.248	0.739	0.655	0.525	0.442	0.254
Molten Glass	9.358	3.075	2.727	2.189	1.841	1.057
Naphtha	49.349	16.218	14.383	11.547	9.711	5.573
Niobium	22.802	7.494	6.646	5.335	4.487	2.575
Oxygen	1.598	0.525	0.466	0.373	0.314	0.180
Petroleum	40.108	13.181	11.690	9.385	7.893	4.529
Phosphorus	7.066	2.322	2.059	1.653	1.390	0.798
Polluted Water	23.097	7.591	6.732	5.404	4.545	2.608
Steel	40.168	13.201	11.708	9.399	7.904	4.536
Super Coolant	228.152	74.981	66.498	53.386	44.897	25.766
Tungsten	12.752	4.191	3.717	2.983	2.509	1.440
Visco-Gel	30.306	9.960	8.833	7.091	5.964	3.422
Water	16.769	5.511	4.887	3.923	3.300	1.894

 

As a quick side note, that list assumes using the full -57C to 537C heat range of petroleum. To use the 125C to 537C range of turbine cooled petroleum, reduce the values by about a third.

[Argelle]

Nice table @bobucles

Carbon, copper, gold, I assume it's as a solid state on a conveyor belt?

Chlorine, is it as a liquid or a gas?

[cblack]

Actually this shows my concern is well founded.  My turbine steam, from aquatuners alone, already occasionally gets to 209C and possibly higher.  And since dumping more heat into it will only raise the steam temp and the petroleum will always be hotter, I'm guessing a safe floor on my petroleum to be somewhere in the range of 220-240C.  When making steel I should still be okay though, as long as I pass it straight through the cooling loop before reusing it.

Oh, and of course because the steam is already above 200C, any heat I dump into it at this point is not returned as energy, so it's a good thing I don't care about that .

 

10 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Nice table @bobucles

Carbon, copper, gold, I assume it's as a solid state on a conveyor belt?

Chlorine, is it as a liquid or a gas?

This is for heat added to coolant when using the refinery.  Thus, it's when all of those are a fluid.

[Lilalaunekuh]

8 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Nice table @bobucles

Carbon, copper, gold, I assume it's as a solid state on a conveyor belt?

Chlorine, is it as a liquid or a gas?

It should be all values for the liquid state.

 

Here is my Metal Refinery / Steam Turbine setup:

1. A liquid valve to regulate the cooling power / power consumption of my cooling loop.
2. A Packet Stacker to online allow only full packets to enter the aquatuner.
3. A prioritized cooling loop for the turbine to reintroduce the heat into the steam chamber.
4. A temperature sensor to prevent problems with the auquatuner freezing the coolant.
5. A reservoir in combination with the temperature sensor before allows to average the temperature of the coolant.
6. Only 10 radiant pipe segments before the temp sensor are more than enough to cool a Metal Refinery refining steel with petroleum as coolant.
   • [The Steam turbine is only running if the steam is above 190°C and I allow coolant to flow out below 220°C, with this setup 4 radiant aluminium pipe segments are already more than enough.]
7. A little vacuum chamber to allow the usage of heavy watt wires without a temperature bleed.

 

Room to improve:

Spoiler

• If I would close of the Steam turbine, I would bleed less heat into the surrounding.
  • Without supercoolant is it power negative to move the heat from the steam turbine into the steam chamber.
  • => Right now I am abusing the surrounding as a heat sink, but that is more or less temporary.
• I should install a light above the Metal Refinery.
  • If we use a 0 tinkering skill duplicant and a celling light as reference: (PS: I am not considering the timebased heat output.)
    • Without light he needs   40     s    and   48kW    to process one batch.
    • With      light he needs   34,78s    and   42kW    to process one batch.

 

=> A simple light can save you early up to 6kW for each refining process.