My personal opinion on Willow update, without the dumpster fire.

[Vurusgard]

Hello there, if i recall correctly, this should be the first time i'm writing down on klei forums. I'm a don't starve together player for give or take 2000 hours and i've been lovingly playing the game for a good few years now. I've been watching the dumpster fire about all this Willow update and I think it's time i should speak my mind as well.

As her title suggests, willow is supposed to be a pyromaniac. However, given the nature of fire in don't starve, it can be quite volatile and unreliable. Burning mobs as a means to attack usually nets in burnt loot. How can we fit a pyromaniac in in such a scenario?

Let's start with the innate abilities. If any of you ever been to a bakery, you should notice how people who work in those places don't mind the heat at all. I think this "reverse insulation" concept is a good idea to start with, making our little pyromancer wade through summer a little easier. However, reverse insulation also means the cold will be a bit more punishing on her. This also means that she needs a mean to go through winter. I don't think she needs something like complete fire invulnerability, since i believe that making a character immune to the game's mechanics can be pretty lazy. She also has to bring along something that will benefit her entire team, doesn't she?

Enter the scaly lantern. Let us give the lady an exclusive craftable lantern, an upgrade from her starter lighter. A lantern that can provide heat and light, has a better light radius and fuel efficiency. This lantern would require dragon scales and her lighter to craft, maybe toss one or two red gems in there as well, why not. It would need coal instead of lightbulbs. A situational (can't be used in summer due to heat emission), fair to make in exchange of it's benefits (requires dragon scales to make) and strong item that can be used by everyone. and no. you can't cook with it.

As for bernie, instead of equipping it, why not make willow hug it to regain sanity? Imagine an animation where willow stops what she's doing, pulls bernie out and hugs it, regaining a fair bit of sanity while using durability. Another good way for her to contribute to the team can be letting this ability to be used by everyone. I don't suggest making bernie duplicates though, only one that gets drained on every usage and needs regular repairs. The "brave teddy bear who fights off mobs while it's owner is insane" part can stay though. I've never thought deeply on that aspect, though i was thinking on making bernie a bit protective like how annie and tibbers are in league of legends lore. 

These were a few thoughts i had during our discussion with my good friend Versus, who also encouraged me to speak my mind here. I've heard that klei was more active here, given this place is their domain. I sincerely hope that the proposed changes were just bait for us to speak our minds. Anyway, these are just one man's opinion. 

[MondayNight]

Welcome to the forums, Vur!

[FreyaMaluk]

I really like these ideas...

tbh I was also asking for fire immunity before... but there are much more interesting ideas to work around "fire" without the full pyro theme that actually is soooo niche 

43 minutes ago, Vurusgard said:

Enter the scaly lantern. Let us give the lady an exclusive craftable lantern, an upgrade from her starter lighter. A lantern that can provide heat and light, has a better light radius and fuel efficiency. This lantern would require dragon scales and her lighter to craft, maybe toss one or two red gems in there as well, why not. It would need coal instead of lightbulbs. A situational (can't be used in summer due to heat emission), fair to make in exchange of it's benefits (requires dragon scales to make) and strong item that can be used by everyone. and no. you can't cook with it.

As for bernie, instead of equipping it, why not make willow hug it to regain sanity? Imagine an animation where willow stops what she's doing, pulls bernie out and hugs it, regaining a fair bit of sanity while using durability. Another good way for her to contribute to the team can be letting this ability to be used by everyone. I don't suggest making bernie duplicates though, only one that gets drained on every usage and needs regular repairs. The "brave teddy bear who fights off mobs while it's owner is insane" part can stay though. I've never thought deeply on that aspect, though i was thinking on making bernie a bit protective like how annie and tibbers are in league of legends lore.

these two ideas are great IMO

as for equipping bernie or not.. I don't necessarily see these as mutually exclusive... she could do both..

I like equipping it for exploring and hugging him for campfire time... win win  

and welcome to the forums lol.. 

43 minutes ago, Vurusgard said:

Enter the scaly lantern.

Just got an idea for the scaly lantern.. how about if she could trap somehow the Dfly larvae instead of using dfly scales?? that would make her lantern way easier to craft... and larvae have infinite light !!  maybe the name could change to... cuz  then there is no scales in it... maybe something larvae related or simply fiery lantern.. to follow her theme..

[Vurusgard]

@x0VERSUS1y

Ay man

@FreyaMaluk

I mean fire doesn't always mean burn everything to a rich black crisp. I kinda liked a few things Klei wanted to implement like fire efficiency and no penalties on extinguishing for willow. But the fire immunity just doesn't click. I can't think of a situation where you will definitely take fire damage for the immunity to be remarkably effective. Yeah there's dragonfly and hounds but do we really want willow's signature ability to be immune to these two? It can be better. Also, thanks for the welcome

As for the proposition for the extra adorable lavae being used in the lantern, oh yeah. It makes me wonder though, that thing dies if not fed. Theoretically, lantern running out of fuel would mean the lavae trapped in it dying. dragonfly has only a 33 percent chance to drop an egg upon death. I'm on the fence with it, since scales are easier to obtain.

[FreyaMaluk]

1 hour ago, Vurusgard said:

@x0VERSUS1y

Ay man

@FreyaMaluk

I mean fire doesn't always mean burn everything to a rich black crisp. I kinda liked a few things Klei wanted to implement like fire efficiency and no penalties on extinguishing for willow. But the fire immunity just doesn't click. I can't think of a situation where you will definitely take fire damage for the immunity to be remarkably effective. Yeah there's dragonfly and hounds but do we really want willow's signature ability to be immune to these two? It can be better. Also, thanks for the welcome

As for the proposition for the extra adorable lavae being used in the lantern, oh yeah. It makes me wonder though, that thing dies if not fed. Theoretically, lantern running out of fuel would mean the lavae trapped in it dying. dragonfly has only a 33 percent chance to drop an egg upon death. I'm on the fence with it, since scales are easier to obtain.

You could feed the larvae with charcoal as u mentioned before in your original idea... 

[Vurusgard]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

You could feed the larvae with charcoal as u mentioned before in your original idea... 

Producing it for the entire team would be harder though, given the 33 percent chance of the egg loot. How about this though, Using dragon scales, an empty scaly lantern can be made. Then the player has to find a lavae pool and capture a lavae inside it to make the lantern function.

[FreyaMaluk]

8 minutes ago, Vurusgard said:

Producing it for the entire team would be harder though, given the 33 percent chance of the egg loot. How about this though, Using dragon scales, an empty scaly lantern can be made. Then the player has to find a lavae pool and capture a lavae inside it to make the lantern function.

I don't mean the egg... I mean the frozen larvae... They unfreeze inside of the lantern 

But yeap.. If she could like "fish" them out that would be cool too 

I just saying cuz scales could be a problem in public servers if Willow decides to take the scale to make her lantern and then the rest of the team has no furnace that winter.. 

[Vurusgard]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

I don't mean the egg... I mean the frozen larvae... 

But yeap.. If she could like "fish" them out that would be cool too 

I just saying cuz scales could be a problem in public servers if Willow decides to take the scale to make her lantern and then the rest of the team has no furnace that winter.. 

Oh you mean the lavae that spawns during the dragonfly fight, not the extra adorable lavae that hatches from the egg? Oh now i understand. That's actually neat, it gives a secondary objective during the dragonfly fight.

the reason I went with scales was because of their nature (and how it works with the furnace if you combine the fire power of the red gem). The items that they're used to craft are fire resistant, if you don't include the statue. Logically, willow would need something like that if she wanted to make a mobile heat source.

[FreyaMaluk]

Just now, Vurusgard said:

Oh you mean the lavae that spawns during the dragonfly fight, not the extra adorable lavae that hatches from the egg? Oh now i understand. That's actually neat, it gives a secondary objective during the dragonfly fight.

the reason I went with scales was because of their nature (and how it works with the furnace if you combine the fire power of the red gem). The items that they're used to craft are fire resistant, if you don't include the statue. Logically, willow would need something like that if she wanted to make a mobile heat source.

Yeap.. That sound pretty cool but I can see how scales could be problematic in public servers.. I think the devs can figure it out.. Maybe use red gems as base material? Dunno

[Vurusgard]

2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Yeap.. That sound pretty cool but I can see how scales could be problematic in public servers.. I think the devs can figure it out.. Maybe use red gems as base material? Dunno

With a decent team you can get around 2 scales during a dragonfly battle. It gets better if you have someone who's skilled enough to dive into the ruins and make one or two deconstruction staves to duplicate the scales. 
though this is pubs we're talking about. You're right.

[Toroic]

1 minute ago, Vurusgard said:

With a decent team you can get around 2 scales during a dragonfly battle. It gets better if you have someone who's skilled enough to dive into the ruins and make one or two deconstruction staves to duplicate the scales. 
though this is pubs we're talking about. You're right.

You can use 2-3 people to farm as many scales as you want off of dragonfly.  If you leave the arena so she flies off it resets the fight so you can just keep popping scales off.

3 people with hambats and log suits could easily grab probably 8+ scales in a single trip before needing to heal.

[FreyaMaluk]

Just now, Toros said:

You can use 2-3 people to farm as many scales as you want off of dragonfly.  If you leave the arena so she flies off it resets the fight so you can just keep popping scales off.

3 people with hambats and log suits could easily grab probably 8+ scales in a single trip before needing to heal.

Ik u can... I'm taking about public servers... People are inexperienced there... Ergo my concern.. 

[Toroic]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

Ik u can... I'm taking about public servers... People are inexperienced there... Ergo my concern.. 

To be fair, most public servers just reset or become a ghost town on day 1 because people are still new.  Most people seem to either play with friends, on community servers, or solo in DST because it eliminates (or severely reduces) the risk of griefers or random resets, and if people chip in for a dedicated server performance tends to be quite good.

[Vurusgard]

1 minute ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Ik u can... I'm taking about public servers... People are inexperienced there... Ergo my concern.. 

Yep. Kinda the reason why I often avoid pubs, unless I want to pass time.

 

4 minutes ago, Toros said:

You can use 2-3 people to farm as many scales as you want off of dragonfly.  If you leave the arena so she flies off it resets the fight so you can just keep popping scales off.

3 people with hambats and log suits could easily grab probably 8+ scales in a single trip before needing to heal.

Never  thought of farming the scales like that. Good to know.

[FreyaMaluk]

6 minutes ago, Vurusgard said:

With a decent team you can get around 2 scales during a dragonfly battle. It gets better if you have someone who's skilled enough to dive into the ruins and make one or two deconstruction staves to duplicate the scales. 
though this is pubs we're talking about. You're right.

I'm probably reading a bit too much into the concern of scales... The idea is awesome... Great work

[Vurusgard]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

I'm probably reading a bit too much into the concern of scales... The idea is awesome... Great work

no no you have your concerns and they're right. I'm more concerned about whether some dev sees my idea and takes it into consideration or not  

[FreyaMaluk]

1 minute ago, Toros said:

To be fair, most public servers just reset or become a ghost town on day 1 because people are still new.  Most people seem to either play with friends, on community servers, or solo in DST because it eliminates (or severely reduces) the risk of griefers or random resets, and if people chip in for a dedicated server performance tends to be quite good.

Yeap you are right.. Maybe overly concerned on my part about pubs

BTW I think a large amount of peeps play in pubs tho.. That's not to ignore 

[Zeklo]

I'm glad you've decided to speak your mind! Though unfortunately I can't say I agree.

I already mentioned my opinion on temperature perks/cons in my mega-response on the main thread, but in short:

It's not an innate downside, but something that relies on an already present downside. So as long as you're prepared for winter, you've conquered Willow's downside as well—which seems off.

The second issue is with character-craftables in general. Winona suffers from this bit herself. No "compelling perk" should be limited to an item that doesn't require a player's presence because what happens is people use the Celestial Portal to change out of a character once they have the items they want.

[FreyaMaluk]

3 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm glad you've decided to speak your mind! Though unfortunately I can't say I agree.

I already mentioned my opinion on temperature perks/cons in my mega-response on the main thread, but in short:

It's not an innate downside, but something that relies on an already present downside. So as long as you're prepared for winter, you've conquered Willow's downside as well—which seems off.

The second issue is with character-craftables in general. Winona suffers from this bit herself. No "compelling perk" should be limited to an item that doesn't require a player's presence because what happens is people use the Celestial Portal to change out of a character once they have the items they want.

Changing characters is already a feature... I don't see it as a downside regarding special crafting but a wide selection of characters u can use for specific tasks 

[Toroic]

4 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm glad you've decided to speak your mind! Though unfortunately I can't say I agree.

I already mentioned my opinion on temperature perks/cons in my mega-response on the main thread, but in short:

It's not an innate downside, but something that relies on an already present downside. So as long as you're prepared for winter, you've conquered Willow's downside as well—which seems off.

The second issue is with character-craftables in general. Winona suffers from this bit herself. No "compelling perk" should be limited to an item that doesn't require a player's presence because what happens is people use the Celestial Portal to change out of a character once they have the items they want.

I have an alternative perspective on "swap" characters.  Although I 100% agree that focusing perks on the characters vs the items they provide is a good thing, if we take the swapping to the natural conclusion almost every character besides Wx is a swap character.

For example, Wicker's value is entirely tied up in her books... which Maxwell can read while having other perks too.  So by that measure, Wick's a swap character too.

We definitely could see more issues if we have too many characters who are being played just to set up the world for others, but in general I think the concern tends to be a little higher than we need to have it.

After all, if someone is only playing Winona for her catapults, that's more than someone who is optimizing would play her before. 

[Vurusgard]

14 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

It's not an innate downside, but something that relies on an already present downside. So as long as you're prepared for winter, you've conquered Willow's downside as well—which seems off.

I don't get how "off" it seems. Wilson and Webber can grow a beard to have cold protection. Woodie gets a tad resistance from his beard as well and yet there's no character who gets an inversed version of this, heat protection. Someone who loves being close to fires all the time would eventually become accustomed to it, so willow is naturally the first character i can think of. And for  the downside, yeah being prepared means you'll overcome it but having  let's say, -100 cold resistance and getting more damage from freezing will always make that preparations weaker and more important.

14 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

The second issue is with character-craftables in general. Winona suffers from this bit herself. No "compelling perk" should be limited to an item that doesn't require a player's presence because what happens is people use the Celestial Portal to change out of a character once they have the items they want.

That's also a problem yeah. People who don't wanna play the character and just get their item would just pop the portal and then swap back once they're done, true. The trouble is it's not easy to establish what a character brings to table without any exclusive items for them (except wolfgang and wortox). Any time i argue with Versus we always think what this character will bring to the table and with fire, it's not really easy if you simply look at it from a combat view. Loot will burn, environment will burn, people will be angry with their pitchforks and then punch the first guy who pulled out a torch because everything just got burnt down.

[Mr.Mulk]

I discussed it in another thread but here's my idea for a relatively simple rebalance:

It's an unfinished idea, as I'm still considering some proper downside(s) that could be added to balance this out. However I think this is a good place for Klei to start from. It's nothing flashy or cool, but I can confirm it'd work.

[Zeklo]

30 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Changing characters is already a feature... I don't see it as a downside regarding special crafting but a wide selection of characters u can use for specific tasks 

The idea is: what keeps be from changing to Willow to craft these lanterns and then swapping to Wolfgang who has a strong built-in perk, and then I can use said lantern on top of that? Unless the characters downsides add a really awesome twist to how I play the game, then there isn't much reason to if they lack a innate perk.

27 minutes ago, Toros said:

snip

Well said, I don't have much to comment on here. I guess maybe that if the downsides aren't very obnoxious, which Wicker's aren't (and Winona's did get more manageable) and you'll be going back for more: always need more books, might need more Wiggy helms—then why change? So I guess in an ideal world the downsides will be more of a problem. 

22 minutes ago, Vurusgard said:

I don't get how "off" it seems. Wilson and Webber can grow a beard to have cold protection. Woodie gets a tad resistance from his beard as well and yet there's no character who gets an inversed version of this, heat protection. Someone who loves being close to fires all the time would eventually become accustomed to it, so willow is naturally the first character i can think of. And for  the downside, yeah being prepared means you'll overcome it but having  let's say, -100 cold resistance and getting more damage from freezing will always make that preparations weaker and more important.

I meant that more regarding as a downside. Since you'd be killing two birds with one stone essentially. In regard to a perk I don't mind it as much. It's a bit negligible (in my opinion). I don't think many people play Wilson for the minor cold resistance, I think the convenient beard hair is where most of that appeal lies. They're a nice added touch, but nothing to go crazy about. So in that sense it's not a bad idea.

[FreyaMaluk]

3 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

The idea is: what keeps be from changing to Willow to craft these lanterns and then swapping to Wolfgang who has a strong built-in perk, and then I can use said lantern on top of that? Unless the characters downsides add a really awesome twist to how I play the game, then there isn't much reason to if they lack a innate perk..

Nothing should "prevent" u from changing characters .. That's the whole point... If you LIKE a character more for quotes personality and such u can just stay with that character most of the time and changing from time when u want to experience something different or do certain task.. Like max for mining or logs

I disagree categorically with this hermetic idea on how should players use or not the Celestial Portal.. 

[Ressayez]

There’s definitely something to be said about trying to give people reasons to stay as a certain character. Wilson has his beard, Wolfgang has attack strength and speed, Wendy has reduced sanity drain from darkness and Abigail, WX has the highest stats in the game and the ability to be overcharged (speed, light, warmth), Woodie has Lucy and his Werebeaver form (both fell trees in fewer hits, and he has increased chop speed), Maxwell has his shadows and sanity gain, Wigfrid has damage resistance, attack strength and vampirism, Webber can befriend spiders and has his beard, Winona has faster crafting.

As it stands Willow, Wickerbottom and Wes have very little in terms of innate perks as opposed to exclusive craftables. With Willow and Wes having no reason to pick them over any other character right now.