Power Priority Control(s)

[WanderingKid]

So I'm currently abusing the new xp system with enthusiasm and I've realized I've tried to figure this out before but with not much luck.

The basic principal is I want my manual generator to be the primary power system, and coal to be the backup without smart batteries as the control technique.  This is mostly because I want my manual generator to be running non-stop at all times except when the dupe in question is eating, sleeping, and toileting.  My other preference is a minimal amount of refined metals to not have to abuse the crusher, as I want to install this before I get a refinery rolling.  Preferably starting the ground work between cycles 4 and 6.

I've tried doing some strange things with transformers but that wasn't helpful.  I'm assuming the correct answer is going to be using a power shutoff somewhere, but I can't really determine how to attach that outside of smart battery controls.  In previous testing I've found that you can't trust the order of priority for your devices after a save reload, so a string of lights from left to right might end up staggered, on the right side later, or other issues.

Has anyone figured this out, or have some ideas that I might be able to use?

[Gus Smedstad]

I'm not sure there is a solution that early. Really, I don't know how you implement any kind of automated power controls without smart batteries. There's no other way to test for a power shortage.

The closest I can see is twiddling a bit with the properties of both generators. The manual generator and the coal generator both have settings which look at batteries. By default, both tell dupes "don't turn this on unless the batteries in network are below 50%." Other generators don't have this feature, just those two.

The problem is, there's no corresponding "turn off" feature for coal generators. The generator continues to run until they're out of fuel if not controlled by an automation network. Dupes do stop using manual generators when the batteries are full. Even if you set the threshold really low for coal generators, like 10% or something, the generators are still going to run once started, absent smart battery control.

It's worth noting that power shutoffs are unreliable. I ran my last colony using those hinky battery isolators, which use 4 shutoffs, and every once in a while I'd have to deconstruct them and rebuild them because they stopped paying attention to the automation signal and stayed either stuck on or off.

 

[WanderingKid]

@Gus Smedstad Unfortunately that's where I've ended up right now with this concept of the process.  I setup a bank of large batteries (4-6 of them), set the manual at 95% and the coal at 15%.  It's *mostly* working, I'm just hoping someone has a better mousetrap!

[Saturnus]

This is extremely simple to do. You'll facepalm yourself when you see it

[KittenIsAGeek]

Well, you're going to need a smart battery on your coal generator at the very least.   You can prioritize your hamster wheels either by connecting them directly to the main grid or using a transformer.  For example:

Spoiler

In this example (I apologize for it not being actually built) we have two hamster wheels going to the high side of a regular transformer.  On the low side of that transformer is the main power grid, which includes a generator, a smart battery, and another transformer.  The smart battery is set to something like 60/40.  As long as the draw from the main grid doesn't drain your smart battery below 40 percent, the only power you'll use is your hamster wheels.  Once you drop below 40%, the generator kicks on -- but only until you have 60% power.  In this way your generator will kick on during high-load situations, but otherwise all your power will be from the hamster wheels.

 

Note: The BEST way to always get perfect efficiency from your coal generator is to connect it to a smart battery.  Otherwise your generator will run any time you put coal in until all coal is used, regardless of the state of your power grid.  

[WanderingKid]

2 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

This is extremely simple to do. You'll facepalm yourself when you see it

Appropriate, but not what I specifically need.  Let me be more specific.

I have a variable 300-1kw on the early base wire.  Pumps, Diffusers, Research, etc. I want the manual to take up the main cost, the coal to be backup for power surges and covering the power when the runner gets off the wheel(s).

2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Well, you're going to need a smart battery on your coal generator at the very least.   You can prioritize your hamster wheels either by connecting them directly to the main grid or using a transformer. 

  Hide contents

In this example (I apologize for it not being actually built) we have two hamster wheels going to the high side of a regular transformer.  On the low side of that transformer is the main power grid, which includes a generator, a smart battery, and another transformer.  The smart battery is set to something like 60/40.  As long as the draw from the main grid doesn't drain your smart battery below 40 percent, the only power you'll use is your hamster wheels.  Once you drop below 40%, the generator kicks on -- but only until you have 60% power.  In this way your generator will kick on during high-load situations, but otherwise all your power will be from the hamster wheels.

That's... that's beautiful.  That's.. That's PERFECT.  I can live with the single smart, since I can offset the main build for a while using percentages until we have it in place with the wiring.

Does the low side battery detect its power level for the high side wheels?  I very rarely play with low side batteries.

[Gus Smedstad]

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

This is extremely simple to do. You'll facepalm yourself when you see it

I'm not understanding that screenshot at all. The logic appears to do nothing. It starts with some object - I'm not sure what - that forces it to true, and then you have a not gate that goes nowhere. There's no input to the logic that determines power status.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, WanderingKid said:

Does the low side battery detect its power level for the high side wheels?  I very rarely play with low side batteries.

the wheels are connected to the transformer. The wheels will "need to run" any time power is being used on the grid.  If you don't want your dupes on the wheels continually, then you'll want a battery on the wheels side of the transformer.

[WanderingKid]

Just now, KittenIsAGeek said:

the wheels are connected to the transformer. The wheels will "need to run" any time power is being used on the grid.  If you don't want your dupes on the wheels continually, then you'll want a battery on the wheels side of the transformer.

As I expected.  That's fine, they're fitness freaks anyway.  Woot!

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, WanderingKid said:

As I expected.  That's fine, they're fitness freaks anyway.  Woot!

LOL.  =^.^=

I've been using this particular technique in a slightly different manner.  I set the wheels to priority 1 so that any time a dupe is idle, they go run on the wheels until the end of their shift.  In my case, I have 4 wheels connected to a battery and a small transformer.  if only one or two dupes are idle, they'll run until the end of their shift because they'll never fully charge the battery (unless for some reason my grid isn't using power).  However, if 4 dupes are idle, they'll charge the battery and it will kick them off the wheels.  This makes sure that other tasks don't get ignored for too long by forcing some down time.

Anyway, I started using this setup once small transformers were added to the game because it let me set up an exercise room without having to run heavi-watt wire through my base.

[Saturnus]

15 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

Appropriate, but not what I specifically need.  Let me be more specific.

It's what you asked for so... I don't know what's wrong with it to be honest. Works exactly like what you asked for.

You want me to spell it out?

Dupes will prioritize running on the hamster wheel which shuts the coal generator off. Expand according to your power needs.

[WanderingKid]

14 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I'm not understanding that screenshot at all. The logic appears to do nothing. It starts with some object - I'm not sure what - that forces it to true, and then you have a not gate that goes nowhere. There's no input to the logic that determines power status.

When the dupe is running, you shut off external power draw via the power Shutoff or shut off the coal generator.

4 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It's what you asked for so... I don't know what's wrong with it to be honest. Work exactly like what you asked for.

Nope, the problem is I need both sometimes, but I want the wheel as the primary choice.  occasionally I need 1 kw of generator, sometimes I just need the 400.  Sometimes I need 600 of charge, and that's when I want the coal to shut off *eventually* but leave the dupe running.  Edit: Final state is that the dupe needed sleep so the generator needs to handle the load for a while.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, Saturnus said:

It's what you asked for so... I don't know what's wrong with it to be honest. Work exactly like what you asked for.

You want me to spell it out?

That is a nice solution as well, but there are a couple of minor issues that anyone using it will want to watch for:

1. Any time a dupe is not on the wheel, the coal generator will run.
2. If the battery (in this case the 1kJ of energy in the transformer) is above the wheel's threshold, the dupes won't hop on the wheel, meaning the generator will continue to run.
3. The coal generator will only stop once it runs out of coal (or a dupe is running on the wheel).
4. If you put a battery on the wheel/generator side, it will help you not lose so much power, but the generator will still always run until it is out of coal -- unless the battery is low enough for the dupe to hop on the wheel.

[Saturnus]

8 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

That is a nice solution as well, but there are a couple of minor issues that anyone using it will want to watch for:

1. Any time a dupe is not on the wheel, the coal generator will run.
2. If the battery (in this case the 1kJ of energy in the transformer) is above the wheel's threshold, the dupes won't hop on the wheel, meaning the generator will continue to run.
3. The coal generator will only stop once it runs out of coal (or a dupe is running on the wheel).
4. If you put a battery on the wheel/generator side, it will help you not lose so much power, but the generator will still always run until it is out of coal -- unless the battery is low enough for the dupe to hop on the wheel.

1. He didn't want a smart battery... and he wanted a simple solution. He'll have to live with his choices. I can give another solution that doesn't require a smart battery but it'll cost more in refined metal so what's the point.

2. Set the wheel trigger point very high... like 90% or 100%

3. That's the point, he wants a dupe on the wheel 90% of the time.

4. I disagree but to each his own.

[impyre]

I like the hamster-wheel power sensor. Although, I'd remark that if you can overproduce your power and build enough storage capacity, it may make more sense to invert the logic. (Especially true if you use coal more as a backup) Use the wheel to *enable* the coal generators, rather than keep them turned off. This would minimize sensor wheel up-time. Is that even possible?

EDIT: Maybe using multiple wheels, just have the last one be a lower priority (so the others are occupied first), then if the last one is being used, you know to turn on the coal generators.

[goatt]

15 hours ago, Saturnus said:

This is extremely simple to do. You'll facepalm yourself when you see it

This is not a good solution and in worse case, this is will run coal for nothing. We are all fine with letting idle dupes run wheel overtime, but not so ok of wasting fuels on overcharging a battery. And the goal here is to not waste coal.

However, in real game, when dupes can’t run wheels, it’s usually downtime and bedtime, and most power users are idle during those times. This setup is almost guaranteed to wasted coal  for nothing at those times because at the end of the day, there should be enough power left in batteries, but coal generator runs full time when most heavy power users are idle. 

15 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

For example:

  Hide contents

 

I have a question, why not move wheels onto heavy-watt wires so that all branches can benefit from them?

[KittenIsAGeek]

44 minutes ago, goatt said:

I have a question, why not move wheels onto heavy-watt wires so that all branches can benefit from them?

The transformer does two things:

1. It isolates the wheels from the batteries of the main grid.  In a mid- to late-game scenario, there are quite a number of batteries on the main grid, depending on how your power sources are being connected.  If your wheels connect directly to the grid, this can lead to times where your wheels won't trigger, or stay triggered longer than you would prefer.  I had a base die of starvation because my dupes wouldn't get off the wheels, for example.  It is much easier to control the time on the wheel if they're not connected directly to the grid.
2. Heavi-watt wire has some significant drawbacks.  It has a hefty decor debuff, doesn't (easily) pass through walls, and takes a lot of resources.  Regular wire and conductive wire are much easier to route into your base, take far fewer materials, and do not have the decor penalties.  This means you can more easily create an exercise room anywhere within your base.

Also, all branches DO benefit from them, because the transformer is putting the energy directly into the main grid.

[goatt]

6 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

this can lead to times where your wheels won't trigger, or stay triggered longer than you would prefer.

I think we should just let wheels run all time, because of below.

16 hours ago, WanderingKid said:

I want my manual generator to be running non-stop at all times except when the dupe in question is eating, sleeping, and toileting

 

10 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I had a base die of starvation because my dupes wouldn't get off the wheels, for example.

I think this is another problem, that means dupes hasn't eaten for at least 3 days. It's either bug or management problem.

13 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

all branches DO benefit from them, because the transformer is putting the energy directly into the main grid.

Now I see, it was opaque and I saw it wrong. But I think there is a chance that wires on manual generators gets melted cuz right side can burn power a lot more than left side. It happened to me before when I use this kinda setup.

[KittenIsAGeek]

@goatt If you want the manual generator to run continually, then again, the transformer is the best way to go.  Without a battery on the wheel side, your dupes will want to run continually in the hamster wheels -- unless you've completely filled all batteries on your main grid.  If you make sure that all of your other power sources have less than 100% as full, then this should never happen -- unless your grid is using less power than your dupes are producing.  Basically, the "high" side of the transformer always "needs" power, because the "low" side is continually sending it onto the grid.

13 minutes ago, goatt said:

Now I see, it was opaque and I saw it wrong. But I think there is a chance that wires on manual generators gets melted cuz right side can burn power a lot more than left side. It happened to me before when I use this kinda setup.

If you use 2 wheels per small transformer (5 if you're using conductive wire) and no consumers, you will never burn out the wire on the wheel side of the transformer.

[goatt]

@KittenIsAGeek Just use heavy-watts wire on wheel side. I know why you don't wanna use it. In this particular problem, you want to consider saving resources, improving decor, etc., but no setup is perfect (overloading wire), there is con and pro of every setup (including heavy-watts suggestion). I choose to focus on solving the problem, but not to bring all the other overlay factors into consideration. I like your idea and being considerate, I just feel overloading disturbs me quite a bit.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, goatt said:

@KittenIsAGeek Just use heavy-watts wire on wheel side. I know why you don't wanna use it. In this particular problem, you want to consider saving resources, improving decor, etc., but no setup is perfect (overloading wire), there is con and pro of every setup (including heavy-watts suggestion). I choose to focus on solving the problem, but not to bring all the other overlay factors into consideration. I like your idea and being considerate, I just feel overloading disturbs me quite a bit.

That's fine, I can see your reasoning.  For me, there's no problem at all doing the math in my head.  Overloading happens in very predictable ways which are easy to avoid, so its rarely an issue for me.  Often when I encounter burned out wire, its because I've done something like this:

Spoiler

Here I've got two small transformers connected to a maximum of 2365 watts of consumers.  

(Note, in this specific case, this was intentional, as the most that will ever run concurrently is about 1900 watts, but you can't tell by looking at this picture)

[goatt]

@KittenIsAGeek yeah I did that many times, too. But I usually want to "fix" this problem that doesn't really exists in use after my base gets more mature.

[Junksteel]

I'm terrible at automation, but in my dreams everything would be fine with 2 clock sensors. 

[Saturnus]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

This is not a good solution and in worse case, this is will run coal for nothing.

Another one who missed the point of the OP.

The OP specifically said he did not want a smart battery.

The one I posted is one solution, ie. using a pressure plate as a trigger to sense if the hamster wheel is being used. What the actual set up beyond that is I really couldn't care.

I posted another solution on discord directly to the OP that absolutely only runs the coal generators when the power is out but as I pointed out to him doing so requires (slightly) more refined metal than a smart battery so there's really no point in building it unless he refuses to use it at all for whatever reason.

@KittenIsAGeek's solution uses a smart battery. So not actually a solution that meets the requirements of the OP at all.

[KittenIsAGeek]

9 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

The OP specifically said he did not want a smart battery.

I will agree that the OP specifically asked for no smart batteries, and your posted solution achieves a similar effect by using automation.  As you point out, your solution (which you posted about elsewhere) requires more refined metals than using a smart battery.  I also made the assumption that the OP was meaning "smart batteries other than the one to control the coal generator."

I apologize for going with what I felt was the spirit of the request rather than the literal specifications.  As I saw it, the OP wanted a simple solution, with a minimal amount of refined metals and no extra smart batteries.  The conductive wires aren't necessary in my build (I was in a hurry and not paying attention -- sorry) and regular wires will work just as good.  The smart battery was because it is the simplest solution to operating a coal generator efficiently.  I personally won't build a coal generator without a smart battery.

If you prefer, @Saturnus, I can refrain from posting in the future when my solution doesn't precisely match the request, even when others might benefit from my slightly different perspective.  I never claimed that your solution was bad -- there's nothing wrong with it.  I simply offered another similar solution.  Please forgive me for my impertinence.