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The difficulty does not have to be boring


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I have noticed that some find it correct that Winona loses so much hunger to construction, because it is enough to build when she is hungry. And that the fact that it is slow is the right counterweight to the benefits. Just as it is right that the generators run out without the possibility of turning them off, which serves to compensate for the great potential of the catapults (on the spotlights I prefer to keep a dignified reserve).

The point is that these things make using Winona harder... but also more boring. It is boring to constantly recharge the generators, it is boring having to wait seconds and seconds for each individual construction, it is boring having to feed Winona with small bites because you do not start to consume calories in a pathological way.

Now, I wonder, is it really necessary to make aspects of a frustrating character just to "balance" it?

Webber is fun to play against pigs and rabbits. With Woorwood it is curious to have to take care of nature instead of destroying it. With Wicker it is interesting to find new strategies to stay sane. With Woodie it's fun to become a beaver... no, not at all. Poor Woddie.

However, we understood: if Winona needs some flaws to balance the advantages... please, Klei, think of something that is still stimulating and pushes the player to play differently and more interestingly ;)

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I think it would've been fine if they gave her a higher hunger rate, rather than tying hunger loss to each craft. Eating more than the average person due to normally burning those calories off, rather than, y'know...immediately having to consume several times her weight because she decided to set up some chests.
Tying a stat change to an action is a unique idea, but unique isn't always good. Right now Winona's an 8-pronged spork. She might as well just be a spoon.

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30 minutes ago, lifetheuniverse said:

Right now Winona's an 8-pronged spork. She might as well just be a spoon.

Winona has turned into Wolfgang 2.0:

  • Really strong against Bosses (Mostly only against static bosses (Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Toadstool, ?Ancient Guardian?, ?Ancient Fuelweaver?) because her weapons cost lots of ressources & can't be moved without loss)
  • Up to +6400% Hunger drain compared to normal characters if she keeps crafting items/structures (definitely a con for structures because even a normal character won't craft slower than you can command)

The abilities to craft items faster or to survive one hit from Charlie are more like two emergency abilities if for example enemies are fighting you during night and you don't have any Light Source available

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I remember hunger for each craft being an idea thrown around a lot as part of a Winona rework idea on the forums and reddit. I guess Klei listened, and, as it turned out, it looked better on paper.

 

We really do create our own demons huh

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6 minutes ago, Naveil said:

Ricordo che la fame per ogni mestiere è un'idea lanciata molto come parte di una idea di rilavorazione di Winona sui forum e reddit. Immagino che Klei abbia ascoltato e, come si è scoperto, sembrava migliore sulla carta.

 

Realmente creiamo i nostri demoni eh

 

Or maybe it's just a coincidence? The most requested thing for Winona was that she could repair the armor with the tape, and it was not done.

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9 hours ago, Naveil said:

I remember hunger for each craft being an idea thrown around a lot as part of a Winona rework idea on the forums and reddit. I guess Klei listened, and, as it turned out, it looked better on paper.

 

We really do create our own demons huh

pretty much

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20 hours ago, TemporaryMan said:

Wolfgang 32.5.

Not really, when I tried to compare Winona's Hunger drain with Wolfgang's Hunger drain, I thought that Wolfgang would have x2.0 Hunger Drain with a fully belly but looks like he has a x3.0 Hunger drain while Winona has a x65.0 Hunger drain while crafting.

Spoiler

 

=> Wolfgang 21.6666666o....... = 21.6

On the other hand, Wolfgang with 300 Hunger will take almost the same time to starve as a character with 200 Hunger so Wolfgang's Hunger drains 50% faster than normal if he doesn't keep his belly full.
=> Wolfgang 43.3333333o....... = 43.3

Because of that I prefer to call Winona Wolfgang 2.0 - OP against Bosses, increased Hunger Drain

Another similarity between Winona and Wolfgang: Winona needs to refuel her toys whenever she's using them, if she refuels them once, leaves the area and returns later, they won't be functional anymore, same for Wolfgang: He needs to refuel his belly right before the fight and can't keep it over time, unless he has enuough fuel (food) to refuel (feed) himself. Wigfrid on the other hand can build her weapons whenever she wants to and they won't loose durability over time, only if she uses them.

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I do agree that the hunger cost for winona's crafting is a little steep at 5 per craft, maybe 2-3 per craft would make it better imo.

The catapults to me feel like an alternative to wickerbottom's tentacle traps for bosses like Bee Queen. But I do feel there should be some way to turn them off.

Also why are spotlights so derp, they should be smarter.

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On 3/8/2019 at 1:17 PM, Pop Guy said:

Or maybe it's just a coincidence? The most requested thing for Winona was that she could repair the armor with the tape, and it was not done.

THIS.  I've always thought it was odd that you couldn't as least repair the football helmet with the sewing kit, as, well, that kind of helmet _has actual stitches on it_!  Then, you STILL can't do it with Ms. Fix-It and her Magical Mending Tape, which I really at first thought you _could_, since, ya know, it was supposed to be an improvement in some way over the normal repairing.  Nope.  Still can't repair a leather thing with stitching by sewing it.

...but you CAN sew...a rock.

what.

...Notorious

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7 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

THIS.  I've always thought it was odd that you couldn't as least repair the football helmet with the sewing kit, as, well, that kind of helmet _has actual stitches on it_!  Then, you STILL can't do it with Ms. Fix-It and her Magical Mending Tape, which I really at first thought you _could_, since, ya know, it was supposed to be an improvement in some way over the normal repairing.  Nope.  Still can't repair a leather thing with stitching by sewing it.

...but you CAN sew...a rock.

what.

...Notorious

 

Ahahah, I like your interventions, I find them very smart and fun! I share everything you wrote!

41 minutes ago, Terra M Welch said:

I do agree that the hunger cost for winona's crafting is a little steep at 5 per craft, maybe 2-3 per craft would make it better imo.

The catapults to me feel like an alternative to wickerbottom's tentacle traps for bosses like Bee Queen. But I do feel there should be some way to turn them off.

Also why are spotlights so derp, they should be smarter.

 

The point is that Winona's flaws are really boring to manage.

I would like something that makes it difficult to play with Winona but also stimulating, and losing five points hungry to construction or building lenses like a snail is just frustrating, I think. However, it is unbelievable that a modder has already created a mod that makes smart spotlights that follow only one player at a time and only if it does not have a light source. It took a lot to make them useful?

Sometimes Klei "gets lost in a glass of water", as we jokingly say here in Italy :'D

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I'm actually inclined to suggest it might be better to make it work like this:

  • If Winona's hunger rate is normal, crafting increases her hunger rate to x4 for 10 seconds.
  • If Winona's hunger rate is currently increased, reset the time remaining to 10 seconds. 

The increased hunger rate works out to at most 4.6875 extra hunger per craft, if you pace them the full 10 seconds apart, but it gets cheaper if you craft many things quickly in a short period of time.  For crafting a single item it's almost the same as it is now, but sustained crafting sessions only raise her total daily needs to a maximum of 300 hunger/day (not 4875).  Needing as much hunger as 4 people to do the work of 2 isn't so bad, and early-game crafting wouldn't be as punishing since most of that would be in short bursts; crafting 8 things in 20 seconds (plus another 10 seconds after the last craft) would only cost ~14 extra hunger, not 40.

Of course, this is just a rebalance, not something more interesting than the existing system.  At least it would put a limit on the amount of grind or farming necessary to feed an industrious Winona (4 dragon pies per day instead of 65).  Also it introduces a little bit of skill since it's more efficient if you can navigate the crafting menu quickly.  This is obviously easier in the early game when fewer recipes are available.

It also has the advantage that since it works by altering metabolism, it rewards wearing a belt of hunger or hibearnation vest.

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23 minutes ago, TemporaryMan said:

[snip]

...no, this is actually the best suggestion I've seen so far for it. It keeps the idea of 'gets hungrier when mass crafting' without making it totally overwhelming or having to inhale several days worth of food in the span of a minute.

K L E I

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17 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

THIS.  I've always thought it was odd that you couldn't as least repair the football helmet with the sewing kit, as, well, that kind of helmet _has actual stitches on it_!  Then, you STILL can't do it with Ms. Fix-It and her Magical Mending Tape, which I really at first thought you _could_, since, ya know, it was supposed to be an improvement in some way over the normal repairing.  Nope.  Still can't repair a leather thing with stitching by sewing it.

...but you CAN sew...a rock.

what.

...Notorious

Repairing clothes forever as it is is op enough, let alone with armor then. I can see her tape as an armor fixing item, but with very diminishing returns for the conventional ones(nothing magical or ancient).

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Yea, that's been a recurring theme in these threads: basically letting the tape repair armor and maybe tools, though not infinitely, and not working on anything having to do with Gems (and possibly Thulecite).
...realistically, there are only a few of these things that you would repair in the first place, but they require enough effort to obtain the first time around that adding a little ease of upkeep isn't unthinkable.

In any case, holding things together throughout stressful situations is kinda what duct tape is made for.

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