Wisdom and Stress reactions

[smcjones]

Hi Folks,

This game is too addictive. 

I understand that dupes are stupid... Very, very stupid. They will seal themselves on the outside of walls even if it means they're trapped. They'll dig from the outside in and fall several tiles and just sit there, bemoaning their fate with no attempt to climb out.

To make matters worse, the notices on the top make it hard to realize when, sometimes, your dupe is trapped. I freak out any time I see "Idle" for fear a dupe who has no ability to build has volunteered to dig themselves, literally, into a hole.

So... I would like to ask for 2 things.

1. Trapped dupes (AKA dupes that are Idle and cannot reach food, maybe lack Oxygen) will start to gain stress faster, and will exercise free will as a mid-level stress reaction. They won't wait, and will just start digging or building ladders or tiles with whatever they have handy to get wherever they need to go. Sometimes they might screw things up worse, but they want to live! They're only thinking about survival. They may die anyway.

2. Dupes learn from their mistakes with a "Wisdom" skill. They gain it simply by getting old enough and making mistakes. In the background, dupes can be learning their environment in realtime as we learn it. Some dupes are just naturally wiser than others. They will take shorter paths, and will generally prioritize things better.

I know you're probably going to have AI improvements, but if they're ongoing or slow, it would be nice to see the dupes improve over time on some features (other than just path issues and sitting around like a crazy person waiting to die)

[Alfons100]

Improving Duplicant AI to prevent entombing is often requested, but nobody has requested a word-for-word idea for a good fix, and frankly, I think even the devs themselves don't know. There's little ways to implement it without it just looking stupid in the end, and causing more problems than it fixes.

[Sasza22]

I think a "trapped" detector could be doable. The game already counts the available food based on the amount the dupes can reach. The same system could be used to determine if a dupe cannot reach food, bed, toilet, recreation zone. Now if a dupe cannot reach all those places he/she is definetly trapped and the game could send a proper message even if it`s not downtime yet.

[avilmask]

"Overall prioritize things better" *sigh*.

Only thing that AI controlled task performers can't do properly is prioritize jobs by range, because calculating range is CPU consuming. Other thing, that basically all strategy games with ai controlled job performers possess, is performers never take over a task that is closer to HIM than to another one, who took the job, but very far away. For better optimization of the task (but not your CPU), dupes should be able to assume if they can perform a batch of all nearby jobs without significant lose of time, and if support from other dupes would help to reduce this time by a significant margin. But for the start, they could at least take over someone else's job if it safes meaningful amount of time. And calculation of time is a key there.

About getting stuck. There was an alarming message before that dupe can't reach his bed. Now it's gone for some reason, and I often miss dupes that get stuck somewhere until there's a message that they starve or suffocate. I would love to see a tweak, that forces dupes to perform building and digging tasks from the side, that is closer to the base (according to pathing tree). With that tweak, it would be impossible for dupes to trap themselves behind the wall in the dead end, unless priorities are wrong.

[smcjones]

I actually think they are working on improved AI because these devs are great. I am not telling the dev team to just "do better". I'm aware it's a hard problem, and sorry if that didn't come across. I suspect they're running simulations to test various builds comparing dupe performance with CPU performance at whatever priority they think is best.

I'm not trying to say "do better". I am trying to say, as you figure out improved algorithms, it could be interesting to add them over time, with a "Wisdom" skill. That has the added benefit, FWIW, of making new dupes less costly than more advanced dupes. 

The "trapped" alert would be interesting and doable (can't find a path back to bed or food and idle for x seconds?), and I think trapped plus certain issues (Starving? "Very" Hungry?) could realistically spark a stress reaction by a dupe, for them to try to get back to food through brute force, shortest path, with no regards for the consequences. That also means it's probably pretty stupid sometimes, but if someone is panicked they don't make the best decisions. It's similar to what destructive dupes do when they get stressed out now, but instead of random it's targeted.

[Alfons100]

14 hours ago, smcjones said:

I actually think they are working on improved AI because these devs are great. I am not telling the dev team to just "do better". I'm aware it's a hard problem, and sorry if that didn't come across. I suspect they're running simulations to test various builds comparing dupe performance with CPU performance at whatever priority they think is best.

I'm not trying to say "do better". I am trying to say, as you figure out improved algorithms, it could be interesting to add them over time, with a "Wisdom" skill. That has the added benefit, FWIW, of making new dupes less costly than more advanced dupes. 

The "trapped" alert would be interesting and doable (can't find a path back to bed or food and idle for x seconds?), and I think trapped plus certain issues (Starving? "Very" Hungry?) could realistically spark a stress reaction by a dupe, for them to try to get back to food through brute force, shortest path, with no regards for the consequences. That also means it's probably pretty stupid sometimes, but if someone is panicked they don't make the best decisions. It's similar to what destructive dupes do when they get stressed out now, but instead of random it's targeted.

The chances of them experimenting with AI is very likely, I think that was one of the things they said with the Testing branch announcement for QOL. 

Many shapes and scenarios happen for dupes with how they build and dig, them remembering algorithms could end up with them being scared to do things and in the end just work more inconsistantly, which may leave the player scratching their heads on how these little people work. Implementing general rule of the thumb things like, they will do their best to not stand with their heads inside a Construction blueprint, would be a better idea.

I do kind of like the "Panick" state, say, if a Dupe is above 20% Stress there's a chance it will immediately trigger when they realise they're cut off from Bed or Food. 

[Sasza22]

I`m not sure if i like the idea of dupes digging random stuff without you ordering them. While it can save their lives it might as well lead to a disaster by breaking a liquid pool and flooding the base or breaking a pathway and trapping more dupes.

[mircomars]

On 6.12.2018 at 12:40 AM, Sasza22 said:

I`m not sure if i like the idea of dupes digging random stuff without you ordering them. While it can save their lives it might as well lead to a disaster by breaking a liquid pool and flooding the base or breaking a pathway and trapping more dupes.

that's the fun of it. "dig yourself out" is such a powerful feature it must be nerfed by something. (perhaps toggle "freedom", so you're able to decide between havoc and death)

 

also the trapped message could come in different flavors:

if idle check for reachable food, toilet, bed, printer and range of motion

if idle and 1 or 2 unreachables: "dupe is lost/confused/disoriented" (medium emergency)

if idle and more than 2 unreachables: "dupe is stuck/trapped" (EMERGENCY!)

now we only need a way to check for dupes that are trapped, but still have work in their vicinity. (perhaps check for path to printerpod instead of check for idle)