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NanoD

Electrolyzer producing wrong proportions

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NanoD    40

I have been playing around with Electrolyzer, and after a while I got a feeling that I got to little power from the Hydrogen. 

So I started to investigate if Electrolyzer produce to little Hydrogen. I did run it in Debug mode.

 

My findings is in open air it produce

911g oxygen and 89g hydrogen. I hand calculated every tile of oxygen and hydrogen. So there might be human error there.

Total numbers was 42136g Oxygen and 4113g Hydrogen.

 

Close space and pumped out everything in to 2 containers and see how much hydrogen and oxygen there was

933g oxygen and 67g Hydrogen. 

Total numbers was 700 kg oxygen and 50 kg Hydrogen.

Close space I did run 2 times and got about same ratio hydrogen and oxygen both times.

 

Any one else wants to test it out and see if you get same results or if I did something wrong? Then I can put out a bug report.

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Lifegrow    278

Working on it - noticed something weird already, will post a proper update in a sec...

Edit: nevermind....

nevermind.png

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BlueLance    130

LIFE! Haha that tickled my funny bone. I have been trying to run a self sustaining system and I did notice that the hydrogen just doesnt seem to come out enough, I put it down to my pump just not collecting it all. I will keep following this though.

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Lifegrow    278

Ok, so - Here's what I did.

I debug'ed in 10kg of water exactly, however I noticed that as soon as the pipe was empty, the electrolyzer actually held on to 1kg and wouldn't use it from it's internal storage - note the empty pipe message. So all figures are based on using 9kg of water.

storage.png

So based on 9kg of water we should get:

9x888g for Oxygen = 7992g

9x112g for Hydrogen = 1008g

Heres the end chamber pics : 

oxygen.png

End result 662.3g per tile x12 tiles = 7947.6

hydrogen.png

End result 83.9g per tile x12 tiles = 1006.8

TLDR - seems to be pretty close, probably lost some accuracy due to having the chamber 12 tiles, so a lot of rounding would've occurred, but it's close enough for me?

Edit: Here's the setup in case I've overlooked anything - yes it's clunky, I did it in 30 seconds :p I did read a very detailed post the other day, but I can't find it now where people were discussing some very scientific explanations for electrolyzers behaving as they do, if someone could post it that would help.

full build.png

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NanoD    40

Yeah you get 0,888 oxygen. Hmmm.

I guess I have to do some more testing.

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Lifegrow    278
6 minutes ago, NanoD said:

Yeah you get 0,888 oxygen. Hmmm.

I guess I have to do some more testing.

Check for that last kilo of water trapped in the electrolyzers if you're starting with a fixed amount... That was the weird thing I mentioned before my game exploded :D 

edit: fml.

fml.png

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BlueLance    130

I might have an answer for the last 1kg, If the pump is going with 1kg and the 112 + 888 have even one floating number over 1000g then the pump wouldnt have enough for that 1 second of use.

An easy way to test this would be use 10.5kg and you will most likely be left with 0.5kg or slightly less

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Kasuha    519
4 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

I might have an answer for the last 1kg, If the pump is going with 1kg and the 112 + 888 have even one floating number over 1000g then the pump wouldnt have enough for that 1 second of use.

An easy way to test this would be use 10.5kg and you will most likely be left with 0.5kg or slightly less

When a pump is in environment with more than one gas, it scoops whatever is covered by it and puts it in the internal storage. Then it decides what it will send to the pipe and that's I believe taken from the biggest storage bin. I had a pump that ingested 100 g of CO2 and then it was pumping natural gas for ten seconds and it only released that CO2 packet to the pipe after it was switched off.

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BlueLance    130

Sorry i meant electrolyzer not pump, as that is where the stuff is stuck in Lifes test. but that it interesting to know, I always assumed normal pumps just pumped what was in it, not in a specific way.

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NanoD    40

Ok Now I have done some more testing. If Electrolyzer not over pressurized then it will produce what it should produce. when it get over pressurized it will produce less oxygen and hydrogen, and lot less hydrogen.

Here is my set up. I run 100 liters of water and let the electrolyzer run until no more water, then I pump in the gas in to the chambers that is 50 tiles each.

Electrolyzer

0978E973E44F4D028B01192DF9DCA742DDEB97B0

for oxygen 1665.1 x 50 = 83255 grams

Hydrogen

Hydrogen 128.7 x 50 = 6435 grams 

I have attached the save file to if some one wants to run it. Enable the pump first let the Electrolyzer run all of the water. Then activate the gas pump. 

Electrolyzer.sav

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Lifegrow    278

Is this maybe because if the electrolyzer is allowed to over pressurize, and the surrounding tiles are most likely O2, then it has no space available for hydrogen to be dispersed to?

Just a theory

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NanoD    40

Well anyways now I know why I didnt get the expected amount of power anyways. it is quit a significant loss of hydrogen.

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Masterpintsman    200

Could be solved by letting the electrolyzer cache the material it can't disperse and eject it the next time it is able to (up to a limit, when that is reached it should block).

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Kasuha    519

I ran an experiment too and based on what configuration I used I got oxygen to hydrogen ratios from 11:1 to 8.4:1. And yes I agree it feels like the problem is too small hydrogen packets getting destroyed in overpressure of oxygen. It might be interesting to try and run the electrolyzer in hydrogen atmosphere (e.g. starting in 1000 g of hydrogen per tile).

1 hour ago, Masterpintsman said:

Could be solved by letting the electrolyzer cache the material it can't disperse and eject it the next time it is able to (up to a limit, when that is reached it should block).

Probably rather to release both gases in specific quanta such as in 1000 g packets (and hold onto each stored gas until it either reaches 1000 g or until the electrolyzer is switched off). The electrolyzer may not know if the gas packet it handles over to the ambient gas system will be absorbed or not, it doesn't depend just on pressure but also on what gas is in which tile at the moment.

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Kasuha    519
16 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

It might be interesting to try and run the electrolyzer in hydrogen atmosphere (e.g. starting in 1000 g of hydrogen per tile).

Result was an absolute surprise to me. I had to repeat the experiment twice to make sure I didn't make a mistake. It produced the worst ratio of hydrogen to oxygen of all attempts, around 14:1

It feels like the electrolyzer is trying to push both oxygen and hydrogen to the atmosphere at the same place and at the same moment. So first it pushes the oxygen, which in hydrogen atmosphere makes a bubble, then it pushes the hydrogen over it - and since in hydrogen atmosphere the oxygen bubble has nowhere to disperse, the hydrogen is destroyed. Or something like that. When it is in oxygen atmosphere the oxygen may have chance to displace if tiles around aren't overpressured.

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Lifegrow    278
4 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Result was an absolute surprise to me. I had to repeat the experiment twice to make sure I didn't make a mistake. It produced the worst ratio of hydrogen to oxygen of all attempts, around 14:1

It feels like the electrolyzer is trying to push both oxygen and hydrogen to the atmosphere at the same place and at the same moment. So first it pushes the oxygen, which in hydrogen atmosphere makes a bubble, then it pushes the hydrogen over it - and since in hydrogen atmosphere the oxygen bubble has nowhere to disperse, the hydrogen is destroyed. Or something like that. When it is in oxygen atmosphere the oxygen may have chance to displace if tiles around aren't overpressured.

This would explain why this is my favorite electrolyzer build to date...

favourite.png

Gave me way more power than I was used to, and I never understood why. Each room having it's own angular roof-pump setup gave me shed loads more hydrogen than I expected... Looking at the design now, the right side should be tweaked to match the left, but the idea worked brilliantly for my offline derp-tastic base :D 

Interesting stuff Kasuha...

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I distinctly recall in one of the threads a little while ago about when setting up a 'glitched' electrolyzer (The trick with layering tiles of polluted and then normal water in tiny amounts over the unit) that you could potentially set them up in such a way to effectively 'destroy' one of the gases.  Either hydrogen or the oxygen.  I know when I was playing around with the idea last update, in my original efforts to set up such a unit, I had cases where an electrolyzer would only produce oxygen.  No hydrogen.

 

So, this would not surprise me that some hydrogen is lost in normal operations when the unit can't find a tile to dump some of the hydrogen into when it hits max gas pressure a lot.  Another thing of note is that the electrolyzer seems to produce/output hydrogen on the left/top side and oxygen on the right/top side.  At least, this is the configuration the unit tends to favor.  So, specific (small) room configurations might favor the production of one gas over the other which might explain what you're seeing with your setup Lifegrow.

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Nidhoggur    17
8 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

This would explain why this is my favorite electrolyzer build to date...

favourite.png

Gave me way more power than I was used to, and I never understood why. Each room having it's own angular roof-pump setup gave me shed loads more hydrogen than I expected... Looking at the design now, the right side should be tweaked to match the left, but the idea worked brilliantly for my offline derp-tastic base :D 

Interesting stuff Kasuha...

This build is kind of not optimal as well. :) Each of your electrolyzers should be overpressured half the time, since you seal them up with only one pump that pumps 500g/s, while the electrolyzer spouts twice as much

Basicaly, 3 out of 6 electrolyzers here are doing nothing. :)

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Kasuha    519
1 hour ago, Nidhoggur said:

This build is kind of not optimal as well.

Even though the build is not optimal in terms of the electrolyzer running only at about half capacity, it produced the best oxygen to hydrogen ratio I achieved in my experiments - 8.4:1, quite close to the nominal 8:1.

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NanoD    40

500/s Actually is quit good, it is hard to get it to 600-700. you will basically never get to 800 if you dont put lots of pumps around.  And because it is idle about 50% of the time, it will only use 50% of the power. 

I think many gets in to the trap, it have to function on 100% or it is not good. But I think it is more interesting how much is the system drawing in power, how big it is and how complex is it to build, to how much is it producing.  

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Kasuha    519

Okay, I achieved perfect production rate 1:8 with this setup. It even works if the electrolyzer goes over pressure so removing the oxygen is not necessary, it can be left for dupes to breathe it out.

diWQYix.jpg

The upper half of the electrolyzer is covered by hydrogen. When a hydrogen bubble is released, it merges with that layer.

The lower half of the electrolyzer is covered by oxygen. When an oxygen bubble is released, it merges with that layer.

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BlueLance    130
20 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Okay, I achieved perfect production rate 1:8 with this setup. It even works if the electrolyzer goes over pressure so removing the oxygen is not necessary, it can be left for dupes to breathe it out.

diWQYix.jpg

The upper half of the electrolyzer is covered by hydrogen. When a hydrogen bubble is released, it merges with that layer.

The lower half of the electrolyzer is covered by oxygen. When an oxygen bubble is released, it merges with that layer.

Could this setup run without using a filter after the system has become primed?

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Kasuha    519
Just now, BlueLance said:

Could this setup run without using a filter after the system has become primed?

Of course. The filter was there only so I could separate and measure hydrogen and oxygen in case they mixed. But they didn't, the single layer of hydrogen below the ceiling is very efficient mechanical filter as long as it doesn't get disturbed. You don't want the oxygen pressure go below the hydrogen pressure, ever. Then it works without filtering.

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