Decor stress levels and hydrogen pockets

[Criptfeind]

I just finished my first playthough in ONI (got to cycle 55 or so before kneeling down to power issues and walling my dudes off from the rest of my oxygen to speed up their deaths.... Although then they all breathed toxic air until they starved to death). Very fun game, but I figure I'd pop on by the forums to make a post with some feedback. The first thing I found weird was the way the decor stress levels worked. I found that after a little bit my colonists all had a constant 0.2% stress gain from decor expectations, including when they were sleeping in their solid bright green bedrooms or eating in the solid bright green dining room. Combined with the almost constant 0.3 from contaminated water (maybe that's a bit harsh as well, it lasts for sooooo long, and it's really hard to avoid a chain reaction where a stress vomiter vomits on themselves, leading to them vomiting even more so in a never ending vomit cycle). means that practically all my people had a constant 0.5 stress gain, making it basically impossible to keep them active without their stress maxing out. Although on the other hand I found that unless they were a stress vomiter that 100% stress didn't seem to matter, since they would only break the hamster wheel and small battery, if I had some other type of power generation and the medium batteries (which I did for the most part) they wouldn't break anything. I'm not sure if you're suppose to have your dudes spend most of their time in the masseuse machine, maybe you are and I was just doing it wrong, but it seemed a bit harsh.

My second feedback is about the hydrogen pockets you find. I tried to use a gas pump to pump them into hydrogen generators for power, but I found that they didn't have nearly enough gas to actually run the generators. Now, by this point my colony was sorta going around the drain (and my hydrogen generators failing to replace the coal I had run out of was the final nail in the coffin), so maybe I screwed something up here and there's an easy answer to this, but It just really didn't seem viable with the amount that the pockets have, the amount the pumps pump, and the amount the generators use. It felt like one side of the equation needs to be tweaked if you're suppose to run them from the gas pockets, maybe reducing the amount of hydrogen the generators use? I'm probably gunna try another colony tomorrow or Friday and try the machine that makes hydrogen, see if that works out better. 

Oh, and as an aside, it'd be nice if water pumps and water purifiers had a greater throughput, I ran an 12 dupe colony on two water purifiers fed by two water pumps and although it worked and I rarely ran out of water, it was a very close thing and I was never able to get a stockpile of water. It felt like, considering the amount of work that went into making each water line, maybe a little bit of faster conversion from contaminated to pure would be reasonable.

[ashein]

Re: Hydrogen --

The only hydrogen pockets I saw were like ~20 cubes worth of 1kg of hydrogen each. 1kg translates to 10s of the hydro generator working, so it didn't seem at all feasible to use that. Coal, on the other hand, gets mined at 300-500kg a tile, which is 1kg for a second of the generator's time. It does 25% less power output, but at least you can make it work for an hour or so given a couple of coal tiles.

Edit/note: the digits are from the build tooltips, as I failed to reach the required tech to check the actual output of the related buildings.

[SenhorLevi00]

I had the opposite effect in my colony: I build 3 eletrolyzers and. after some cycles (10~15) my base was full of hydrogen!! I quit the game because I didnt know what to do with so many hydrogen...

[Czeraphine]

Possible power solution(?) Electrolyzers turn water into oxygen and hydrogen, use excess hydrogen in your hydrogen generator.

[ashein]

Yeah, though electrolyzers venting both oxygen and hydrogen in the "air" tiles don't make that any easier.

[TentacleStew]

It would be hilarious if chain puking was intentional

but puking because someone else did so is not too uncommon a thing

 

[ZigomatiX]

Hydrogen is lighter than oxygen (which is lighter than CO2) so by using electrolyzers, you will end up with pockets of hydrogen near the ceiling, wich you can then pump.

Also i'm not sure but it seams that pumps tend to only extract whatever gaz the connected device requires.

The problem i have is you need to build your base verticaly in order to reduce the scattering of hydrogen, using this as a sort of 'cheminey' creating a big pocket up top instead of multiple smaller ones, and/or put all your electrolyzer in the same room, then use pumps to dispatch the oxygen (thought oxygen pumping doesn't seam to work very well, maybe due to lower gaz pressure or the fact that gaz vents do not request any specific gaz).

But dispatching the oxygen produced in a single room to every other room is a pain, and even with perfectly straight ceilings some of the hydrogen will still get stuck in corners.

 

 

[Criptfeind]

Yeah, I conjectured that the power solution might be to use electrolyzers instead of relying on the natural gas deposits, however I've made another colony to test this idea, and so far it doesn't seem to be working very well. 

 

Here's my setup, it should be making over twice as much hydrogen then the generator requires and far more oxygen then my colony requires (offscreen there's a vent in a bedroom to dump the oxygen out, currently the air pressure at the vent is 98.8 grams, between 1/4 and 1/20 the pressure of the surrounding squares... What the heck? That's the opposite of the situation I would expect.) The pump often doesn't even get enough gas pressure to run, it's "gather squares" are often quite under pressure, even though the rest of the room is fairly high pressure. Even when it does get enough pressure to run, it tends to gather and gather and gather and gather and gather and gather for many seconds before finally sending a tiny packet of hydrogen that runs the generator for less then a second. 

 

Has anyone managed to make a working electrolytic separator/hydrogen pocket to hydrogen generator that can power their base alone yet? And, if so, could they take a screen shot for me so I can see how it works? Because to be honest right now I'm getting a little dubious about it's possibility. 

[ZigomatiX]

From what i can gather on your screenshot i'd say that there is not enough room for the oxygen and hydrogen to really separate from each other. Also i'm not sure that pumps can use 2 different gazes for 2 different outputs.

I'd try to setup things up this way :

- increase the zise to 3x6, with an additional 2x2 space on top

- put a pump in the 2x2 space, connected to the generator for hydrogene supplying

- put a pump on the floor, in beetween the electrolyzers and connect it to your oxygene venting setup

This while leave a bit more room for the gazes to separate, and maybe a better gaz pressure.

Also, i'm do not know the production numbers, but 2 electrolysers for 1 generator do not seam right from what i tested last night.

[Criptfeind]

Thanks for the advice! I gave it a try, or, at least I think I did. 

Is this the set up you were describing? Because unfortunately, it still doesn't work. Although this certainly produces a lot of oxygen the hydrogen seems to just not want to pump! Both pumps only pump oxygen, the bottom one a lot and the top one only a little bit. The top one has actually managed to accumulate over 25 kilograms of hydrogen in this set up, but it's not pumping it out! 

As an aside, you're right that two electrolyzer is far more then a single generator can use (in theory) but I wanted to get the room up to pressure fast and make absolutely sure that I had enough hydrogen, and to have room to expand to a second generator later on! So I put in two. They are on separate electrical switches, so I can turn them on and off as I please, and I've tried it with a single electrolyzer running.

 

Edit: with some fiddling, I've managed to get the top pump pumping hydrogen, from what I was able to understand, it seems like an air pump will only ever pump one type of gas? The first one it gathered? And the rest will just accumulate there forever. At least, that's what it seems like. At any rate, by deconstructing the top pump and then reconstructing it now it pumps hydrogen... But it still doesn't work. The generator just isn't getting enough hydrogen to run on, not nearly enough. I don't know where the hydrogen is going, since I should be making more then twice as much as I need. It's not going into the bottom pump either, it's just all... Disappearing. Leaving me with only tiny amounts of it getting gathered by the top pump that sometimes make the generator turn on for a split second before it runs out.

[SenhorLevi00]

 I think the eletrolyzer only works ate certain pressure. If the room is overpressured the eletrolyzer goes in iddle...

[Criptfeind]

That is true, but not the case here, the eletrolyzers are working at full capacity and the room is at an appropriate pressure. 

[AlastairCorsair]

Criptfreind, I love your cruelty, id often open my base in DF9 to vacuum and watch the people fly out flailing LoL TentacleStew, So true. Im calling that The shame spiral. Stress>Vomit>falling in vomit your/or not yours>Restrooms inevitably break down as you fight 'larger issues'> Sim Esq piss pools> back to the top repeat until they call you Sisyphus! Good job Klei after all that time in DS/T just what I hope comes from you if not a bit much at this time.

I saw the same results with only 3 eletrolyzers active in the open. I had a fairly comprehensive HVAC build that at first with enough ambient H gas was working fine to self power via a pair of H-reactors. But locking them into a chamber was a better plan that im intending to try on my next game. The 3 filled the base rather fast ~7 cycles making it a catch up game. This bring me to my real point relating to point here. IRL we can breach a resource pocket more or less successfully. Such as Oil. I want to see a few pipe parts to achieve this. Like A ball-bearing active pressure seal. You drill in this building part to a pocket of gas/fluid and the pressure variance seal the bearing to the external wall of the tip until you tap a pipe system on. Maybe a second part to hmm shift the bearing to activate flow to make convenience have a cost besides just research. Then one for vacuum pocket that functions in the reverse way, Holding the vacuum or lower pressure zone as is until you ahh found it engineers call these Pressure Compensators My ****** had these effectively in the non-master hoses. Could also introduce new pipe and pressure mechanics where you improperly tap a pockets then at the other end out shoots high pressure CL gas!!! that ought to melt flesh off a Dup really fast! OR if not done carefully you get a dangerous back-flow in pipes or an explosion of a sort? gas mix to react in ways [not a scientists just like science] I really want to see some more pressure mechanics developed. First I hope see some room wide stat wise of pressure/PPM of contaminates /gas mix% seeing only tile by time as it fluctuates doesn't always tell you a lot. Am I seeing specific densities or something else idk. Do appreciate the K scale is included lol, think ill try that next game.

Attaching im image below of My rudimentary CL gas sequestration, I built off the airlock as after reloads it seemed to always act as if open. Can't have that for such a gas, also why so much O2 got in. If you make something like that and have a pump inside with exterior switches its a great way to capture/recapture free or leaked H gas and hold it for later. Makes it much cheaper and easier to run H-Gens longer as short stops hurt the colony more than low power states. Pump inside too lets you vac it to first to avoid contamination or later a separation stage, doesn't matter much atm by my experience if some of the wrong gas gets someplace, could change. Also a easy bulk gather point where you tap out and separate gasses even feeding them back in if your pipe nightmare of a system works right. At first i thought id just fill the H-Gen room with gas but they dont work like that, however you can add a pump linked only to the genies if the room is filled up with H and it feeds in great! leaving room pressure to separate hamster wheels and like. Untested as for pumps to genies ratios. Advisable to let the H tanks fill to max if you can spare the time for it. It really gives your external system and new mining Ops time to work while it does too. In the future ill be trying a kind of lower entry to the room for switch flicking and to minimize potential escaped fuel. Or something like a toilet S bend may not even need airlock if done well while other gasses sink into the bend, likely CO2 on the back side will hold in the H. Set ups like this could use a customized type of priority switch where it can change the source it draws from as pressures in the system change or if you want to drain location 1 then have it move to the next keeping a constant flow while not splitting back n forth from the 2 sources every other gas unit.

[Masterpintsman]

The problems with gas pumps not pumping the hydrogen but accumulate it should be fixed as of the build yesterday, as they're now* able to switch between gasses to pump (prior they stuck to the first one they saw).

[Oatmeal]

My strategy was just to make a funnel for the hydrogen and attach the pump to the Hydrogen Generator. With the funnel, you don't have to worry about the hydrogen getting trapped in corners, and you can use less pumps...

 

The PROBLEM, however, is the Hydrogen Generators themselves. You see that green bar on the Hydrogen generator? That means (or at least when compared to coal generators), that the generator is full of the necessary resource -ie, hydrogen- and is ready to give power. BUT! I ran into some really weird things with this. For starters, if I turned off the pump, the generator would just stop, DESPITE it being filled with Hydrogen. And I can't even explain what else went all funky with the gasses inside the pipes. And don't get me started on those gas filters; as you can tell is not being used in this setup.

[Targa_X]

+1 to the fact that gas pumps don't provide enough flow (and for that matter, neither do liquid pumps). It's just not feasingle to pressurize a closed room with oxygen and pump it through pipes to vents throughout your base. And have you seen how much water a liquid pump provides when trying, for example, to pump one reservoir into another? Literally just drips out of the pipe...

[phelaen]

here is my base, all oxygen is created by electorizers from a single rooom

https://gyazo.com/ad2f4bc877c930b715cf9f612bc4b0dd

since hydrogen goes up you can make the bottom of that room let out oxygen while also using gas pumps to take out the Hydrogen and O2 to the vents

also i would suggest a basement with a scraper like this room has to anyone to easily filter out all co2

so all exploration is for water and contaminated water, but i have another game with a less efficient design but still workable that has exceeded cycle 150 now

the game needs more filter medium stuff around like sand. or the ability to clean using other materials...

 

[Masterpintsman]

22 hours ago, Oatmeal said:

The PROBLEM, however, is the Hydrogen Generators themselves. You see that green bar on the Hydrogen generator? That means (or at least when compared to coal generators), that the generator is full of the necessary resource -ie, hydrogen- and is ready to give power. BUT! I ran into some really weird things with this. For starters, if I turned off the pump, the generator would just stop, DESPITE it being filled with Hydrogen.

This seems to be a current bug: connected (with pipes/vents) buildings are only active while they get fed new resources, resources already stored in them are not taken into account so they stop the moment the influx ceases (instead of continuing while the resources last).
Workaround is to use valves set to the amount the building consumes (or the minimum in case they soaked up on resources and are full, so they empty over time).