Wolfgang Tweaks

[Toros]

With Wolfgang's addition right around the corner, now is a perfect time to talk about his design, and how it fits into DST.

With the help of the more characters mod, I've had the oppurtunity to test wolfgang in a multiplayer environment and he has two types of problems.

The first type is specific to DST's changed mechanics, specifically the armor and damage nerfs.

Wolfgang's entire purpose is to be good at combat when mighty, and he pays a heavy hunger price to do so. Currently, his costs are high but the payback is much lower.

For those of you who are unaware, in DST every character does 40% less damage than normal, and armor absorption is also reduced by about 20%.

The reason why this hurts wolfgang more than other characters is his wimpy (day to day) form is significantly wimpier, and his mighty form is a lot less mighty (now only doing 1.2x singleplayer damage instead of 2x, whereas other characters are doing 0.6x damage instead of 1x), and he can't tank damage nearly as well because of the armor nerf.

In addition, because his damage is lower, things live longer, causing his extra sanity loss from monsters to affect him more. In singleplayer, 2-3 hits to a spider made the sanity loss minimal.

5-6 hits makes it a lot more significant.

Food becomes a problem as well with multiple people because anytime wolfgang isn't wimpy, his team as a whole burns through food much faster, meaning if he isn't selective with when he goes mighty, his whole team suffers.

The second problem with wolfgang has always been there, and is a big reason why he became a lot less popular once he was reworked ages ago:

The "strongman" spends a ton of time wimpy, because being normal or mighty is expensive, and wolfgang's wish to always have his mighty belly full is bad strategy until a few years and a trip to the ruins has been completed.

Linearly scaling health also makes it difficult to know exactly how much health you're missing, and slowly losing max health and damage while mighty has an unpleasant "feel" to it.

Most characters have clear decision-making in when to use their abilities. Wolfgang's form management gets muddied because going mighty for minor threats is wasteful, but not going mighty (particularly in multiplayer) is tedious and risky.

My Suggestion:

Change Wolfgang so he is a lot more clear and consistent, and is encouraged to stay mighty instead of wimpy.

Mighty stats:

250 hp (no scaling)

1.75 damage multiplier

2x hunger rate

No speed boost

Normal stats:

200 hp (no scaling)

1.25 damage multiplier

2x hunger rate

Normal speed

Wimpy:

150 hp (no scaling)

0.75x damage multiplier

2x hunger rate

Speed penalty

Why is this better?

Wolfgang now has a clear purpose: he consumes more resources than other characters, so he should aggressively use that strength to hunt and fight more efficiently than other characters can, staying mighty whenever possible unless he needs to heal.

Veteran wolfgang players will be able to abuse his strengths just as effectively, and new players will find him less frustrating to learn and use.

Wolfgang also would provide great visual feedback to other characters on how he's doing. Consistently mighty while your food stores increase means he's doing great. Wimpy unless he's using healing items means he's not doing well, since there are no other advantages to that form.

While my proposal makes mighty wolfgang's stats slightly weaker, he now has a much better niche and more enjoyable playstyle consistent with the character's motivations and lore.

Gone is the annoying dance near starvation to not waste food out of wimpy form, replaced by a more active, aggressive playstyle where the player is more encouraged to use Wolfgang's mighty strength.

[J192]

Or just rework the cheap damage multiplier nerf.

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/43220-damage-armor-and-gold-rebalance

[Toros]

Or just rework the cheap damage multiplier nerf.

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/43220-damage-armor-and-gold-rebalance

This would make mighty form being mediocre better, but wolfgang still has problems with playstyle flow and how he works with a team.

[rezecib]

Or just rework the cheap damage multiplier nerf.

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/43220-damage-armor-and-gold-rebalance

 

That's only addresses the effective sanity drain being increased in DST. His other problems (namely wanting to stay wimpy, and scaling health/damage being incredibly awkward) are separate issues that I would like to see addressed.

 

I get how to play Wolfgang, but after doing a few 100+ day worlds with him I couldn't really see any compelling reason to stick with him over Wigfrid. Wigfrid's just so much more reliable, and in a multiplayer context will be (a) more self-sufficient and (b) capable to making relatively strong weapons and armor cheaply for allies.

[F1sh]

Just take away the damn damage, armor, and gold tool durability reductions, make them optional.

[Toros]

Just take away the damn damage, armor, and gold tool durability reductions, make them optional.

Changing the damage and armor only served to expose some underlying problems Wolfgang had all along.

When you play as Wickerbottom or Maxwell, you can clearly see how their weaknesses and strengths shape their playstyle and provide them a unique niche to excel.

Wickerbottom tech lead and books make her perfect for establishing a strong base, accelerating growth of replanted resources, and also setting up strategic tentacles to manage guardian pigs or farm respawning monsters.

Maxwell's sanity regeneration and starting equiptment helps him quickly make high-end magic items, and his abilities make gathering nightmare fuel useful and painless. He is also the ideal user for wickerbottom's books.

They each have clear benefits for being on a team, as they have an area they excel in no one else does.

Wolfgang does not. He's better at fighting, if he spends large amounts of extra food to do so. Most major threats are not fought in melee, they're killed with darts/gunpowder/icestaff or kited into another threat.

This change would make him a highly effective hunter while retaining his fighting prowess and removing the unsatisfying "always wimpy unless fighting" playstyle.

[Winterbird]

Wolfgang should be stupid and  have less prelearned stuff to craft.. XD

 

Basiclly the opposite of Wickerbottom.

[J192]

How about removing the cheap nerfs AND making Wolfgang the most resource-consuming character but also the most effective damage-dealer and damage-tanker?

Like you guys said, playing as different characters should fill in the gaps.

[Warpspeed10]

This "always wimpy unless fighting" playstyle is probably the main reason I don't like playing Wolfgang. I love getting into the personality of these characters, and Wolfgang's insistence about always being mighty goes against the actual playstyle that he falls into.

[Toros]

This "always wimpy unless fighting" playstyle is probably the main reason I don't like playing Wolfgang. I love getting into the personality of these characters, and Wolfgang's insistence about always being mighty goes against the actual playstyle that he falls into.

That's how I feel as well. Eventually you get a belt of hunger/hibearnation vest which makes being perma-mighty viable, but he relies too heavily on those items.

By the time wolfgang's playstyle and his personality match up, you've been playing for 2+ game years already.

[acemurdock]

Wolfgang should be stupid and  have less prelearned stuff to craft.. XD

 

Basiclly the opposite of Wickerbottom.

 

 Just because he doesn't speak English well doesn't mean he's not intelligent. Sure, he's more of a jock, but he's not stupid.

 

 But OP, these are good suggestions. I always had trouble playing as Wolfgang anyway, since I'm not much of a fighter, but I think this kind of thing would help distinguish him a bit from Wigfrid, whose perks and nerfs are also based on fighting/damage and food. 

[Isosurface]

Instead of tweaking the hunger drop multiplier (*2), I'm thinking about halving hunger value of all food items. In other words, use a hunger gain multiplier (*0.5, hunger drop is the same as everyone else). So, the total food cost over time is still the same. However, all effects last longer and are easier to maintain.

[Toros]

Instead of tweaking the hunger drop multiplier (*2), I'm thinking about halving hunger value of all food items. In other words, use a hunger gain multiplier (*0.5, hunger drop is the same as everyone else). So, the total food cost over time is still the same. However, all effects last longer and are easier to maintain.

I like this idea, but wolfgang with double the hunger rate takes just as long to starve as other characters. If he had essentially double the belly size he does now, he would take nearly 5 days to starve.

With double the hunger rate he has a balanced strength/weakness. With a 1x hunger rate and 300 belly, even if food is only half as effective, he takes the longest to starve in multiplayer.

In reality, muscular men with low bodyfat would starve rhe fastest.

[Warpspeed10]

Just throwing ideas at the wall here, but what if his might tied into his fear of darkness? Being mighty results in a diminished (or removed) insanity aura from darkness and monsters. Being wimpy results in a more pronounced insanity aura, and being normal is well... normal. My reasoning is that being mighty in real life would make one less afraid of all those threats and darkness in the Don't Starve world.

 

Another idea I am chucking at the wall is reworking him to work with others better. His presence in mighty form would rally others around him, increasing the parties damage (and maybe defense). However, this might be better reserved for Wigfrid's perk if her gear cannot be shared with others. I see her as more of the leader type than Wolfgang.

 

Hopefully some of these ideas stick. At the end of the day, we really just want to match Wolfgang's playstyle with his personality. He should never "want" to be wimpy in order to min/max on resource consumption; however, being mighty should still be enough of a challenge to still feel rewarding.

[XirmiX]

You know what I think? Nothing should be nerfed. People, even when playing together without lag would have much more harder time surviving together than in single player, even if they're all pros. It's simply impossible on Together's default mode! Like what are the chances a spider will drop a Spider gland? And how much damage do you take from so many spiders you need to kill to actually get the glands for making Healing salves? And how much more resources will you lose when using the salves to heal yourself from other kinds of danger? The more players, the easier killing is, true, but more health is needed to be restored after so much damage taken by enemies and more resources, such as food is also needed for more players, which means more killing of enemies, to get good foods (as the meat foods are twice, if not 3 times as better), which also means more health loss: you die? Well, even more health loss! And so on!

 

It's a never ending chain of death, and even pros like me with 0 lag could not help out my teammates at all. And honestly, if we have 4 people in a game, they will scatter around BY THEMSELVES and not in groups of two, making it even harder to survive. I by myself took like 6 minutes, just to kill a freaking tree guard, which would have taken me much less time. Without lag, it would have been probably 4 minutes, which is still long, and without lag, it would have been 2 minutes. With 64 people, it would be even more health loss, thought easier killing and people could get in groups, but the problem would be resources. It's just impossible!

 

We need dedicated servers and buffs NOW! Or if devs are just gonna leave the nerfs there, I'm making a mod to buff stuff, cause this is bull.

[Toros]

Just throwing ideas at the wall here, but what if his might tied into his fear of darkness? Being mighty results in a diminished (or removed) insanity aura from darkness and monsters. Being wimpy results in a more pronounced insanity aura, and being normal is well... normal. My reasoning is that being mighty in real life would make one less afraid of all those threats and darkness in the Don't Starve world.

Another idea I am chucking at the wall is reworking him to work with others better. His presence in mighty form would rally others around him, increasing the parties damage (and maybe defense). However, this might be better reserved for Wigfrid's perk if her gear cannot be shared with others. I see her as more of the leader type than Wolfgang.

Hopefully some of these ideas stick. At the end of the day, we really just want to match Wolfgang's playstyle with his personality. He should never "want" to be wimpy in order to min/max on resource consumption; however, being mighty should still be enough of a challenge to still feel rewarding.

I think reducing his sanity loss while mighty but increasing while wimpy would end up just being an overall buff, since good players are going to have plenty of reasons to stay mighty.

Also, being able to ignore sanity loss from repeated fighting is wigfrid's niche. Wolfgang is superior at single, strong enemies, and she is superior at many, weak enemies.

I think her ability to make cheap superior spears and helmets will fufill her group combat contribution nicely.

Great brainstorming!

You know what I think? Nothing should be nerfed. People, even when playing together without lag would have much more harder time surviving together than in single player, even if they're all pros. It's simply impossible on Together's default mode! Like what are the chances a spider will drop a Spider gland? And how much damage do you take from so many spiders you need to kill to actually get the glands for making Healing salves? And how much more resources will you lose when using the salves to heal yourself from other kinds of danger? The more players, the easier killing is, true, but more health is needed to be restored after so much damage taken by enemies and more resources, such as food is also needed for more players, which means more killing of enemies, to get good foods (as the meat foods are twice, if not 3 times as better), which also means more health loss: you die? Well, even more health loss! And so on!

It's a never ending chain of death, and even pros like me with 0 lag could not help out my teammates at all. And honestly, if we have 4 people in a game, they will scatter around BY THEMSELVES and not in groups of two, making it even harder to survive. I by myself took like 6 minutes, just to kill a freaking tree guard, which would have taken me much less time. Without lag, it would have been probably 4 minutes, which is still long, and without lag, it would have been 2 minutes. With 64 people, it would be even more health loss, thought easier killing and people could get in groups, but the problem would be resources. It's just impossible!

We need dedicated servers and buffs NOW! Or if devs are just gonna leave the nerfs there, I'm making a mod to buff stuff, cause this is bull.

There's a lot of off-topic info in your post, but if you take any damage from farming spiders I'd really re-examine saying you're a "pro" at don't starve.

Also, the drop rate for spider glands is 25%.

[rezecib]

@XirmiX I think you meant to post that here.

[XirmiX]

There's a lot of off-topic info in your post, but if you take any damage from farming spiders I'd really re-examine saying you're a "pro" at don't starve.

Also, the drop rate for spider glands is 25%.

Where  there's a lag, there is no way. Now do you understand why I would take damage from spiders? Besides, the time it takes to kill one certainly makes a big difference in killing them. 3 hits with a spear, reasonable. 5 hits with a spear: that's way too much. With a freakin' tentacle spike in SP I could two shot them. The thing is, people need to survive and don't have time to think strategically, especially if they have lag, so.