Petroleum Generator Setup

[Oni Noob]

Hi Guys,

Can you share your petro Generator Setup, and how many wheezewort I need to prevent it from getting too much heat 

[Mr.Trueba]

I know that you have so many wheezeworths in your world, hahaha, but you dont really need any to keep cool your generators.

In my world i use 4 of it and you only need build a tungsten metal block under where the pw fall.

Mesh tiles and metal tiles is all you need. Mesh tiles for pump the water under the generators and metal tiles to transfer the heat from generator to the pw.

Its very easy. I use 4 generators (maybe 50% idle) but the temp never rise above 85°C.

With a igneous rock insulated tiles aroud them, you can contain the heat and your generators will work without problems. 

[Sasza22]

My petrol gens overheat from time to time especially if the gas geysers are dormant and they get much more load. Current game i use a system with 2 thermoregulators looping hydrogen through radiant pipes behind it.

26 minutes ago, Mr.Trueba said:

With a igneous rock insulated tiles aroud them, you can contain the heat and your generators will work without problems. 

Doing that will make them have no place to radiate the heat. They will overheat faster.

Generally you don`t want petrol generators to work all the time unleess you need more CO2 for a slickster farm.

[crypticorb]

Wheezeworts are not always the answer.

My favorite method is to use an AETN if I can find one close to home, and enclose my power core in a hydrogen room with it.

When an AETN is not available, I use an aquatuner with petroleum radiators, and an open bottomed room filled with hydrogen over my polluted water tank. All the CO2 and polluted water settle down, hydrogen goes up, and the heat is sunk into the pool below with the aquatuner. Everything stays nice and cold, and the generators produce cold pH2O and CO2.

[thejams]

In theory there is a lot of benefit to be had by keeping petroleum generators really cold as they output at their temperature.

So basically keeping the generator at like -15°C and then using the 750g/s polluted water in an aquatuner cooling system has a potential of 420kDTU of cooling.  So the last time I build it I was cooling it with cold pwater from aquatuner (

 

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

I replaced my generators with steel ones.

[clickrush]

2 hours ago, thejams said:

In theory there is a lot of benefit to be had by keeping petroleum generators really cold as they output at their temperature.

So basically keeping the generator at like -15°C and then using the 750g/s polluted water in an aquatuner cooling system has a potential of 420kDTU of cooling.  So the last time I build it I was cooling it with cold pwater from aquatuner (

 

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Since the polluted water heat capacity change from 6 to 4 the input stores only little more heat than the output of the Petroleum Generator. This means you cannot cool your aquatuner with the petroleum you put into the generator. If I'am not mistaken your system actually generates heat and doesn't lose it.

Except you have something outside of it that you didn't mention. At a quick glance on your picture one can only see that the aquatuner is super hot but not how it is cooled, the piping is a bit chaotic. My guess is that you destroy it with the water sieve in the end. Which is very potent and viable, but that doesn't mean you are cooling the generator based on its I/O.

[Fischer_L]

Petrolium generator produces 20kDTU/s, 1 wheezwort (in hydrogen) consumes 12kDTU/s. So on paper 2 hydrogen wheezworts would be enough to cool 1 generator.

[thejams]

@clickrush well I wasn't talking about using the petroleum to cool an Aquatuner before destroying it with the Generator (which is also quite doable).

I was talking about instead of keeping the Generators at a high temperature, keeping them as cold as possible, for example at -15°C so that the polluted water it produces is at that same temperature.  Then you can use that polluted water as a coolant and heat it to 119°C before Sieving it for a pretty large cooling gain.

[clickrush]

Just now, thejams said:

@clickrush well I wasn't talking about using the petroleum to cool an Aquatuner before destroying it with the Generator (which is also quite doable).

Well if the generator runs full blast it is: 750 * 4 + 500 * 0.846 - 2000 * 1.76 = -97 Watts. Meaning the input heat is slgihtly greater than the output heat, which means you're right, sorry for the confusion.

3 minutes ago, thejams said:

I was talking about instead of keeping the Generators at a high temperature, keeping them as cold as possible, for example at -15°C so that the polluted water it produces is at that same temperature.  Then you can use that polluted water as a coolant and heat it to 119°C before Sieving it for a pretty large cooling gain.

That's what I assumed yes. So the actual cooling method is sieving.

[thejams]

6 minutes ago, clickrush said:

Well if the generator runs full blast it is: 750 * 4 + 500 * 0.846 - 2000 * 1.76 = -97 Watts. Meaning the input heat is slgihtly greater than the output heat, which means you're right, sorry for the confusion.

@clickrush That formula doesn't make any sense to me, the petroleum doesn't transfer any heat, it just gets deleted.  The only heat that is added is the 20 kDTU/s form the Generator operation itself. You could feed 500°C petroleum to the Generator and it wouldn't care as long as the pipes are insulated well enough.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

4 minutes ago, thejams said:

@clickrush That formula doesn't make any sense to me, the petroleum doesn't transfer any heat, it just gets deleted.  The only heat that is added is the 20 kDTU/s form the Generator operation itself. You could feed 500°C petroleum to the Generator and it wouldn't care as long as the pipes are insulated well enough.

But it does generate heat in the form of the polluted water and carbon dioxide. Clickrush did however not take into account the temperature differences, only the heat capacity per unit of of temperature.

[thejams]

2 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

But it does generate heat in the form of the polluted water and carbon dioxide.

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy No it doesn't.

One thing that seems to be a common misconception is that objects have heat.  They don't.

Heat is the transfer of thermal energy between 2 objects, without transfer there is no heat.

So depending on what happens to the produced polluted water and CO2 from the Generator, you either transfer heat to them or from them.  When you produce them at -15°C, you can easily setup a system to transfer heat to them, effectively using them as a coolant.

 

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

9 minutes ago, thejams said:

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy No it doesn't.

One thing that seems to be a common misconception is that objects have heat.  They don't.

Heat is the transfer of thermal energy between 2 objects, without transfer there is no heat.

So depending on what happens to the produced polluted water and CO2 from the Generator, you either transfer heat to them or from them.  When you produce them at -15°C, you can easily setup a system to transfer heat to them, effectively using them as a coolant.

 

heat is just another word for energy. I think we are actually mostly confusing watt (the rate of heat generated) and energy. Any object in ONI has a specific amount of heat or energy. You can limit the transfer of it between 2 objects, but that's a whole different ball park. For instance if I move the heat from the aqua tuner to the coolant and never move the coolant somewhere else and assuming that is fully insulated, is that none existing heat? Of course not. The heat is still sitting in there, continueing to build up. Transfer is not prerequisite for heat.

 

[thejams]

13 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

...Transfer is not prerequisite of heat.

"Like thermodynamic work, heat is a property of a process, not a property of a system."

I did give you an in-game example in how the same object could be used for adding heat or removing heat.  Considering this is 9th grade physics, please just either trust me or read a bit more about it.  

EDIT: Oh, and another quote from the same Wikipedia article: "This is to be distinguished from the common conception of heat as a property of high-temperature systems."

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

5 minutes ago, thejams said:

"Like thermodynamic work, heat is a property of a process, not a property of a system."

I did give you an in-game example in how the same object could be used for adding heat or removing heat.  Considering this is 9th grade elementary school physics, please just either trust me or read a bit more about it.  

No heat is energy, specifically naming energy that moves around. But it remains energy. My body has energy because particles move around in it, but that is not relevant. I think you are the one being confused mate and throwing it on semantics.

May I also remind you this is ONI and doesn't follow 9th grade elementary school physics? Because we can create more energy than we spend in the game. Again, carbon dioxide and polluted water are being generated with a specific amount of temperature at a specific amount of heat capacity. Do the formula the game uses yourself and you get a specific amount of heat units, with a definition from of heat from the game. If it helps calm your mind, imagine the molecules and whatever transferring energy around inside the carbon dioxide and the polluted water.

Djeez...

[Fischer_L]

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy actually @thejams is right. You can vent PW and CO2 to space... And that's it... no transfer... no heat produced.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

8 minutes ago, Fischer_L said:

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy actually @thejams is right. You can vent PW and CO2 to space... And that's it... no transfer... no heat produced.

Right, you can also do that with everything else in the game that is not solid. If I want I can also do that with the petroleum. You delete the heat then (which mister 9th grade physics school should know is impossible in real life; you can only convert the heat into a different kind of energy). But that still doesn't change the fact the polluted water and co2 has heat when generated. How you handle that heat in the game, either through processing or heat deletion afterwards, that's all up to you.

For the record it's not to be confused with cooling. Cooling happens when 2 objects with a heat differential exchange heat energy. For instance, if you add through debug 10° water all around the map, you will cool down the map. But you still add, maybe in a paradox, heat. Because you add a certain amount of joules, metric unit of heat, into the map.

[thejams]

6 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

No heat is energy, specifically naming energy that moves around. But it remains energy. My body has energy because particles move around in it, but that is not relevant. I think you are the one being confused mate and throwing it on semantics.

May I also remind you this is ONI and doesn't follow 9th grade elementary school physics? Because we can create more energy than we spend in the game. Again, carbon dioxide and polluted water are being generated with a specific amount of temperature at a specific amount of heat capacity. Do the formula the game uses yourself and you get a specific amount of heat units, with a definition from of heat from the game. If it helps calm your mind, imagine the molecules and whatever transferring energy around inside the carbon dioxide and the polluted water.

Djeez...

And this ladies and gentlemen is why this world is where it is at this moment.  I call it a fact, @ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy calls it semantics (or as some other people like to call it, "alternative fact").  But the fact is that ONI simulates 9th grade physics in a simplified but close enough way that we can, the same way it is a fact in real life, with absolute certainty say that objects don't have heat. 

BTW @ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy, there are fundamental reasons why this is so and accepting it helps much easier understand in-game interactions.  I did try to show you how it matters, but feel free to continue understanding it as you please.

 

[Fischer_L]

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy in a way you are right too. It's all boils down do you included PW and  CO2 in a system or not, and what your "zero" temperature (when you start to gain heat).  E.g. if i'm aiming fo 20C... i can feed 500C petrolium to PG, gain -14C PW and CO2... and it still be heat loss for me, as i can use them for cooling.

 

[thejams]

@Fischer_L you are forgetting that we have functional heat pumps in the game (in the form of aquatuner and thermo regulator), which move heat from colder to warmer (i.e. the completely opposite direction of what you just said).  Just one more reason why understanding that only the movement of energy is heat, as without the movement, it's irrelevant what the thermal energy of an object is.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

16 minutes ago, thejams said:

And this ladies and gentlemen is why this world is where it is at this moment.  I call it a fact, @ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy calls it semantics (or as some other people like to call it, "alternative fact").  But the fact is that ONI simulates 9th grade physics in a simplified but close enough way that we can, the same way it is a fact in real life, with absolute certainty say that objects don't have heat. 

BTW @ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy, there are fundamental reasons why this is so and accepting it helps much easier understand in-game interactions.  I did try to show you how it matters, but feel free to continue understanding it as you please.

 

You are still making semantics of this. An object theoritically does not contain heat in real life. I am not talking about heat in real life. ONI does not simulate 9th grade phsyics in any way representative. It has some real life connection to make it somewhat believable. If we were talking about real life, you are absolutely right. Do you think we have a dialogue about real life or me having a monologue about the game and you a monologue about real life? The game doesn't make a difference between heat and thermal energy mate.

Let's put it differently then if you really want to hold on to this: 500gr of CO2 (in the game) at 270 °K holds  That has 500*270*0.846= 114,210 DTU. Can we get to agree on that and move on?

And please keep that patronizing jibber jabber about alternative facts for yourself. I never disputed what you said about physics in real life.

[clickrush]

50 minutes ago, thejams said:

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy No it doesn't.

One thing that seems to be a common misconception is that objects have heat.  They don't.

Heat is the transfer of thermal energy between 2 objects, without transfer there is no heat.

So depending on what happens to the produced polluted water and CO2 from the Generator, you either transfer heat to them or from them.  When you produce them at -15°C, you can easily setup a system to transfer heat to them, effectively using them as a coolant.

 

You must forget that the generator stores the petroleum before it uses it. This means you are cooling the petroleum alongside the generator. It isn't a fixed heat output building so the cooling depends on the mass and heat capacity of the output since it effectively transfers heat from the input.

[Cypher-7]

9 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

jibber jabber

People don’t say “jibber jabber” enough. It’s great, I love it.

[thejams]

Just now, clickrush said:

You must forget that the generator stores the petroleum before it uses it. This means you are cooling the petroleum alongside the generator. It isn't a fixed heat output building so the cooling depends on the mass and heat capacity of the output since it effectively transfers heat from the input.

Materials stored inside buildings are insulated, almost no heat transfer happens between them.

There is no heat transfer between the input and output in a Petroleum generator.