Cycle

[KittenIsAGeek]

22 minutes ago, TheExceed said:

You're actually using this mechanic? I find it to not be beneficial at all. It takes far too long for dupes to actually tune the generators up. Especially for larger NG powerplants. And if you're like me, and unluckily did not get a metal volc on your map, theyll enventually take all your metal, especially  when the dupes start using tungsten instead of iron or gold.

I use it all the time, especially in my early bases.  One engineer can keep something like 5 generators constantly tuned up and still have time to be idle.  Keeping them away from resources you want to conserve (like tungsten) is as simple as building a high-priority storage locker next to the pcs.

As for "eventually they'll take all your metal"... Lets suppose you have 5 generators (they're doing the work of 7.5) on your map.  Each will use 5kg of refined metal every time the engineer does his tuneup (optimally once every 3 cycles).  So, for 5 generators, that's 25kg of refined metal every 3 cycles.  After, say, 300 cycles, the engineer has used... 2500kg of refined metal.  That's about 3 blocks of un-dug gold amalgam.

Now, lets assume that instead of 5 coal generators, you have 7.5 and you're not using the PCS.  Assuming you're using 100% of the power 100% of the time (hopefully you aren't), then you are using 2.5 generators worth of extra coal.  Each coal generator burns 1000g/s of coal.  Over a cycle that is 600kg of coal per generator, or an addtional 1500kg of coal per cycle.  After 300 cycles, that's 450,000kg of coal. 

So, for the same power generation capabilities, you either need 2500kg of refined metal over 300 cycles, or 450,000kg of coal.  Yes, the engie buff is definitely worth it.

[Neotuck]

41 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Polluted h2o is a byproduct from power generation, NOT a method of support.  Yes, you can feed it to fertilizer stations that turn it into natural gas which you can then feed to your nat gas genny... but I've found that polluted h2o is better used in other ways. 

I respectfully disagree, with fertilizer synthesizers a good PW geyser provides more natural gas than all the Nat gas vents on your map combined!  Also the byproduct of your nat gas gens don't cover the needs of a fertilizer synthesizer, even if you add a carbon skimmer to turn the CO2 from the gens into PW it still won't be enough so you'll need an extra source like a geyser  

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

I respectfully disagree, with fertilizer synthesizers a good PW geyser provides more natural gas than all the Nat gas vents on your map combined!  Also the byproduct of your nat gas gens don't cover the needs of a fertilizer synthesizer, even if you add a carbon skimmer to turn the CO2 from the gens into PW it still won't be enough so you'll need an extra source like a geyser  

Ah, but around cycle 800 you're going to wish you had more polluted water.  Geysers don't put out near enough to keep the base going.  I will run one or two fertilizer synthesizers and save up the gas, because I also have a use for about that much fertilizer.  Otherwise, I start having issues with water shortages.

I mis-read your statement.  Basically I was saying that if you run a fertilizer farm to power natural gas, you're going to start running low on polluted water.  I don't use polluted water for a power source, because I have much better uses for it in the long run.  Even with a polluted water geyser, I won't run a fertilizer farm beyond one or two stations and certainly not enough to run a multitude of natural gas generators.

[Neotuck]

11 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Ah, but around cycle 800 you're going to wish you had more polluted water.  Geysers don't put out near enough to keep the base going.  I will run one or two fertilizer synthesizers and save up the gas, because I also have a use for about that much fertilizer.  Otherwise, I start having issues with water shortages.

that depends on the output of the geyser, if you seen my other post on unlimited power from slush I have 20 synthesizer running and a slush geyser that's outputting 14Kg/s.  The PW below my nat gas gens are still rising

11 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I mis-read your statement.  Basically I was saying that if you run a fertilizer farm to power natural gas, you're going to start running low on polluted water.  I don't use polluted water for a power source, because I have much better uses for it in the long run.  Even with a polluted water geyser, I won't run a fertilizer farm beyond one or two stations and certainly not enough to run a multitude of natural gas generators.

no problem, but my point still stands as it depends on the output of the geyser.  Although I'm curious about your long term use as even with my 20 fert synths I have a lot of extra PW

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

that depends on the output of the geyser, if you seen my other post on unlimited power from slush I have 20 synthesizer running and a slush geyser that's outputting 14Kg/s.  The PW below my nat gas gens are still rising

I have yet to get a seed with decent water geysers.  My best so far output a sustained average of 400kg water per cycle. Tapping all three that I found gave me enough to keep one electrolyzer continuously running.  I'm much more likely to come across something like this:

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I have yet to get a seed with decent water geysers.  My best so far output a sustained average of 400kg water per cycle. Tapping all three that I found gave me enough to keep one electrolyzer continuously running.  I'm much more likely to come across something like this:

ya I found a few bust geysers and vents while randomly searching world seeds.  I once found a hot water geyser that outputted less than 50g/s  Useless!

[tzionut]

I don,t like polluted water. And don't like germs in water. For toilet i recirculate the same amount of water whit a temp sensor and a liquid valve for automate the evacuation of excess clean water to my electrolyzers. 

Hatches i feed whit polluted dirt automatized for sweping the excess coal to my coal generators, and clay Digg from the swamp biome.

For food first i go on liceloaf suplimented whit fried mush bar, then mushroom cooked in a chlorine room for germ extermination, and pepper bread whit what i find in frost and chlorine bioms.

For cooling i use whezzeworts and mini gas pumps for power savings

For power i use one smart batteries + one normal one + gas generator in parallel whit one coal generator or hydrogen generator, and for backup at priority 1 manual generator. I cook oil for Natural gas whit magma for supplementing the  natural gas and i cool it whit the entropy nullifyer. 

Polluted oxygen i prefer to convert it in oxygen lowering the temp.

Excess of chlorine i froze it and store it whit 4 whezzeworts.

Excess of natural gas i convert it in methane whit entropy nullifyer. 

 I don't take more then 8 dupes for using only 2 electrolyzers or 2 alge dezoxydiezer.

I don't like the thermo aquatune. I use the ice and snow for cooling the water. 

But this is me. This is the way i prefer to play.

[PhailRaptor]

For the past few days I've been mashing the New Game button and using Debug to locate and analyze Geysers to find a seed I like.  So far, when you adjust the Geyser outputs to per second rates for their whole cycle, the exposed Steam Geysers are averaging between 0.7 kg/s and 1.2 kg/s, with the biggest producer I've calculated being 2.4 kg/s in total.  It was the Swamp one, if memory serves.  Both it's Active and Eruption periods were very high % uptime, and overall rather small numbers -- eruption was like 24 out of 39.

[Neotuck]

2 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

For the past few days I've been mashing the New Game button and using Debug to locate and analyze Geysers to find a seed I like.  So far, when you adjust the Geyser outputs to per second rates for their whole cycle, the exposed Steam Geysers are averaging between 0.7 kg/s and 1.2 kg/s, with the biggest producer I've calculated being 2.4 kg/s in total.  It was the Swamp one, if memory serves.  Both it's Active and Eruption periods were very high % uptime, and overall rather small numbers -- eruption was like 24 out of 39.

This is why I try to find World seeds with extra steam vents, hot water geysers, PW geysers, or my favorite the slush geyser.  The 2 steam vents are never enough to sustain a colony past 1000 cycles  

[KittenIsAGeek]

6 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

For the past few days I've been mashing the New Game button and using Debug to locate and analyze Geysers to find a seed I like.  So far, when you adjust the Geyser outputs to per second rates for their whole cycle, the exposed Steam Geysers are averaging between 0.7 kg/s and 1.2 kg/s, with the biggest producer I've calculated being 2.4 kg/s in total.  It was the Swamp one, if memory serves.  Both it's Active and Eruption periods were very high % uptime, and overall rather small numbers -- eruption was like 24 out of 39.

Heh. My current polluted water vent has an active period of 48.6 cycles every 238.9.  Next activity: 150-something damn cycles. LOL.

[PhailRaptor]

4 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

This is why I try to find World seeds with extra steam vents, hot water geysers, PW geysers, or my favorite the slush geyser.  The 2 steam vents are never enough to sustain a colony past 1000 cycles  

While I agree...  I have yet to find any of the bricked over Steam Vents with even comparable results....  Heat is the primary production from them, whether then are Hot or Cool.

Water, Slush, and P-H2O Geysers all seem to have better rates, but the Water ones are very rare to find at all, let alone one with a favorable rate.  Meanwhile, both the Slush and P-H2O Geysers require extra steps to make them usable (heat to get away from freezing/Food Poisoning, convert to clean).

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Heh. My current polluted water vent has an active period of 48.6 cycles every 238.9.  Next activity: 150-something damn cycles. LOL.

Not really that informative without both it's output rate and eruption uptime.  [rate] * ([eruption uptime %]) * (48.6/238.9) = ???

[blash365]

21 hours ago, Neotuck said:

This means for your plan to work you will need 4 Kg of PO for every 1 Kg coal.  

Isnt PO the least of our worries? Cant we just create a PW tank with lots of air space to generate that amount?

[Neotuck]

Just now, PhailRaptor said:

While I agree...  I have yet to find any of the bricked over Steam Vents with even comparable results....  Heat is the primary production from them, whether then are Hot or Cool.

Water, Slush, and P-H2O Geysers all seem to have better rates, but the Water ones are very rare to find at all, let alone one with a favorable rate.  Meanwhile, both the Slush and P-H2O Geysers require extra steps to make them usable (heat to get away from freezing/Food Poisoning, convert to clean).

Ya I prefer the geysers over the vents too

BTW I have yet to find a PW geyser with food poisoning, am I just lucky?

[PhailRaptor]

Just now, Neotuck said:

Ya I prefer the geysers over the vents too

BTW I have yet to find a PW geyser with food poisoning, am I just lucky?

From my experience, PW will always have Food Poisoning, while Slush will simply be cold.

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Not really that informative without both it's output rate and eruption uptime.  [rate] * ([eruption uptime %]) * (48.6/238.9) = ???

Its not that special.  4780.1g/s for 408s every 682s with an activity period of 48.6 cycles every 238.9 cycles is... half an electrolyzer.

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, blash365 said:

Isnt PO the least of our worries? Cant we just create a PW tank with lots of air space to generate that amount?

you'll have to check the rates on that one, if the goal is coal and each hatch poops 70 Kg per cycle then you would need 280Kg PO every cycle per hatch.  I would love to see a PW tank that can support that!

[PhailRaptor]

P-H2O -> P-O2

0.1% chance per tick (5 times per second) to convert 0.1% of total mass.  So when RNGsus blesses you, you can convert 0.5% of mass each second.

You are also bottlenecked by the rate of hunger of both your Hatches and your Pufts.  And since Slime will be offgasing, you need either a high pressure room to feed the Hatches, or an excess of Slime which requires more Pufts to offset the loss.

[PhailRaptor]

@Neotuck @KittenIsAGeek Back to the FertSynth/NatGas loop math, I've been working on the system of equations on the problem, and unfortunately it's not solvable in a clean manner.  Without any of the variables known, the only intersection of the 3 rates is at the origin, 0 of all 3 machines.  It would come out differently with a known per-second NatGas source, but it still won't come out clean.  You'll have leftover products or a shortfall of fuel somewhere.

[Neotuck]

3 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

You'll have leftover products or a shortfall of fuel somewhere.

I usually push for leftover products (polluted water) if nothing else I can easily get rid of it with a reed farm 

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 hours ago, Neotuck said:

I usually push for leftover products (polluted water) if nothing else I can easily get rid of it with a reed farm 

I want one of these maps with an overabundance of pw that necessitates 'getting rid of.'  The last 10 maps I've played have been so short on water (polluted or otherwise) that I wouldn't even consider growing reeds using hydroponics.  Instead, I've left the ones growing natrually as best I can in order to collect their fibers.