METAL VOLCANOES - MANAGING THE METAL (Using Sweepers)

[Lifegrow]

4 hours ago, TheAlterMind said:

My volcano outputs at least twice as much iron as Lifegrow's build and I couldn't manage to cool it down. I ramped up the thermostat in the oil to cool until -10 and added 5 more weezeworts, but the top sweeper gets damaged and the metal plates are simply uncoolable. My water went up to 60C for like 15 cycles. 

Yeah I found this happening too with bigger volcanoes - the easiest fix is to slap a clock sensor on your sweeper arm and only have it function for a percentage of the cycle. You'll often find that the larger outputs have a longer cooldown between eruptions, so to balance that you need to split the sweepers workload a little.

[Kasuha]

1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

Yeah I found this happening too with bigger volcanoes - the easiest fix is to slap a clock sensor on your sweeper arm and only have it function for a percentage of the cycle. You'll often find that the larger outputs have a longer cooldown between eruptions, so to balance that you need to split the sweepers workload a little.

If the sweeper is well cooled, you can let it load the just solidified metal without fear. It works great in my setup.

The other option is to install a weight switch and thermo switch on the metal landing zone and block the arm when something has just landed on the switch until the temperature gets low enough. I have the logic implemented in my newer volcano setup. But it's not exactly simple.

[Lifegrow]

38 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

The other option is to install a weight switch and thermo switch on the metal landing zone and block the arm when something has just landed on the switch until the temperature gets low enough. I have the logic implemented in my newer volcano setup. But it's not exactly simple.

A clock sensor. So much easier - why over complicate things  

[Kasuha]

6 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

A clock sensor. So much easier - why over complicate things  

Good cooling is the 'so much easier' approach in my opinion. Clock sensor is a lottery, you never know if you don't hit the eruption by chance. Unless your volcano has exactly 600 seconds period and always the same time throughout the cycle.

[Lifegrow]

1 minute ago, Kasuha said:

Good cooling is the 'so much easier' approach in my opinion. Clock sensor is a lottery, you never know if you don't hit the eruption by chance. Unless your volcano has exactly 600 seconds period and always the same time throughout the cycle.

You're not trying to hit the eruption - you're just allowing "cooldown" period. Trying to time the eruption would be a huge waste of time - but a simple clock sensor on either the arm OR the loader work just fine.

[Kasuha]

Just now, Lifegrow said:

You're not trying to hit the eruption - you're just allowing "cooldown" period.

You're trying to not hit the eruption. But with clock sensor, it's only matter of time when the eruption will occur right at the time you activate the arm.

5 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Trying to time the eruption would be a huge waste of time

I don't understand what kind of waste of time do you mean. To have deterministic and safe solution, you either need to have the arm cooled efficiently so it doesn't overheat while it loads the hot metal, or to detect when the eruption started, then wait some time to let the metal cool down, and then start the arm. Both approaches are possible, both are safe for the machine, and neither is waste of time since the amount of produced metal stays the same.

[Lifegrow]

Wait a second @Kasuha I think we're arguing at odds here. One I have no idea what you're talking about, and two... well point one pretty much summed up my current state  

All I was saying is that a clock sensor will allow for the sweeper arm to cool down. Doesn't matter if you connect it to the loader or the arm itself - that way it has some down time from moving materials.

Don't forget, in my build i'm not dumping it into a liquid like you are - i'm solidifying and moving hot materials.

[Kasuha]

42 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Don't forget, in my build i'm not dumping it into a liquid like you are - i'm solidifying and moving hot materials.

Oops, I guess I forgot about that detail. Sorry, you're right.

I still don't like the clock sensor, though. I'd probably prefer a temp sensor in the arm's bath.

[Lifegrow]

37 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Oops, I guess I forgot about that detail. Sorry, you're right.

I still don't like the clock sensor, though. I'd probably prefer a temp sensor in the arm's bath.

 

[JonnyMonroe]

If you're dumping metal into a liquid the easiest solution actually is a weight plate. When 2 piles of debris merge they add their mass and thermal energies together. If you keep a few tons of already cooled material at its landing point new material coming in will automatically average it's temperature with the existing pile. For a sufficiently large pile that could mean a temperature spike of only a few degrees.

[Lifegrow]

9 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

If you're dumping metal into a liquid the easiest solution actually is a weight plate. When 2 piles of debris merge they add their mass and thermal energies together. If you keep a few tons of already cooled material at its landing point new material coming in will automatically average it's temperature with the existing pile. For a sufficiently large pile that could mean a temperature spike of only a few degrees.

I've got my suspicions that dropping molten metals into liquids isn't actually calculating properly. I've not had time to test much in debug, but it strikes me as odd that dumping, for example, 200kg of 2000 degree metal into 1000kg of liquid doesn't alter the temperature of liquid all that much...

Same applies to conveyors entering liquids for that matter too - seems a little too... generous for my liking.

[JonnyMonroe]

Just now, Lifegrow said:

I've got my suspicions that dropping molten metals into liquids isn't actually cooling them properly. I've not had time to test much in debug, but it strikes me as odd that dumping, for example,  200kg of 2000 degree metal into 1000kg of liquid doesn't alter the temperature of the much...

Same applies to conveyors entering liquids for that matter too - seems a little too... generous for my liking.

Keep in mind that liquid metals have at best a thermal capacity of 0.449(iron) whereas water has a thermal capacity over 4 and polluted water even higher. I would not expect to see the hot metal make much impact on the temperature of the water even if they were the same mass.

 

I'm not saying that it is definitely working correctly. I've learned not to make that statement about anything in Oni. However it does not seem to me to be giving any unexpected results.

[Lilalaunekuh]

Consider that water has one of the highest thermal capacities. So lets say 200kg iron and 1000kg water would interact in one cell, if we reach our equilibrium the iron would just have 2-3% of the total thermal energy inside it.

 

But can someone confirm or deny the possible heat deletion while dropping the metal inside some liquid ?

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

But can someone confirm or deny the possible heat deletion while dropping the metal inside some liquid ?

There are strange things going on even when dropping molten metal onto metal tiles. First, they didn't stop exchanging heat even in vacuum. And second, the initially molten metal lost about twice the energy the metal tile absorbed. More research needed...

[Lilalaunekuh]

Yeah i saw some strange things too.

I think we could only compare dropping the metal onto some tiles i a vacuum with dropping it in liquid by using the debug tool for total heat engery stored. The total amount of added heat should be the same for 2 reloads so you could use the same volcano. (when i have time to tinker a bit i will try it, or maybe someone else got a bit spare time to enlighten us ^^)

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

But can someone confirm or deny the possible heat deletion while dropping the metal inside some liquid ?

Fun, fun, fun.

Cooling molten metals with water is the fair way of doing so.

When I drop molten iron to water, the heat is exactly balanced. 

When I drop molten metal on iron plates, half the heat is destroyed.

When I let molten metal cool down in oxygen, half the heat is destroyed.

I don't know what to think. 

Okay on second thought there might be something about metal plates maybe. Perhaps they act as if they have twice the mass? In any case, the heat exchange with oxygen is fair too.

 

My numbers:

 

100 kg of molten iron on 100 kg steel tile.

Steel initial temperature 293.2 K, when the metal solidified it was 343.4 K, final equilibrium (yes they kept exchanging temperature when both were solid even in vacuum) 797.6 K. Energy gained 2.46 MJ until solid, then 22.25 MJ to equilibrium

Iron initial temperature 1900 K, when solidified 1788.9 K, equilibrium 797.6 K Energy lost 4.98 MJ until solid, 44.5 MJ until equilibrium

 

100 kg of molten iron in 100 kg of oxygen

Iron initial temperature 1900 K, final 1666.5 K. Energy lost 10.5 MJ

Oxygen initial temperature 200K, final 303.65 K. Energy gained 10.4 MJ

 

100 kg of molten iron into 1000 kg of water

Iron initial temperature 1900 K, final 1156,3 K, energy lost 33.4 MJ

Water initial temperature 300 K, final 308 K, energy gained 33.4 MJ

[Lilalaunekuh]

So if i wanna reach over 900K i need to accept the additional heat deletion or drop my molten metal into magma as my new favorite liquid

[KittenIsAGeek]

3 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Fun, fun, fun.

Cooling molten metals with water is the fair way of doing so.

When I drop molten iron to water, the heat is exactly balanced. 

When I drop molten metal on iron plates, half the heat is destroyed.

When I let molten metal cool down in oxygen, half the heat is destroyed.

I don't know what to think. 

I wonder. It appears that the state of the material has something to do with it.  Your first example is liquid-liquid.  The second is liquid-solid.  And the third is liquid-gas.  Perhaps we need to run some numbers seeing what happens when you drop a solid into liquid, solid into gas, and solid onto solid and see if the 50% loss happens only in cross-state combinations?

It might explain why a transport rail is so good at removing heat.

[Kasuha]

41 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I wonder. It appears that the state of the material has something to do with it. 

If you read on (my two posts got merged) it looks rather like metal plate acts as if it has twice the mass (I guess in similar manner how buildings have fifth of the mass). I did not finish all the related experiments yet so I'm not sure.

42 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

It might explain why a transport rail is so good at removing heat.

I suspect the fact that material moves on it in 20 kg chunks may play a big role there. But I have yet to do any heat transport experiments with rails.

[Arxeon]

7 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

It might explain why a transport rail is so good at removing heat.

The problem I've at least been having with transport rails and thermo transfers is that it seems to only work while its within the viewing field of the screen. By moving the screen elsewhere it seems to stop the thermo energy from transferring between the conveyed items and the medium its being conveyed through.

[JonnyMonroe]

2 hours ago, Arxeon said:

The problem I've at least been having with transport rails and thermo transfers is that it seems to only work while its within the viewing field of the screen. By moving the screen elsewhere it seems to stop the thermo energy from transferring between the conveyed items and the medium its being conveyed through.

I've noticed this on occasion but it doesn't seem to happen all the time.

13 hours ago, Kasuha said:

First, they didn't stop exchanging heat even in vacuum.

If debris can't exchange heat with their own cell, they will attempt to exchange with the cell they're sat on at 1/4 rate.

 

13 hours ago, Kasuha said:

he initially molten metal lost about twice the energy the metal tile absorbed.

Tiles have twice the displayed mass. If you click the tile twice you will select the second lot of 'underlying' mass. You need to take the temperature of that second mass into account as well when calculating this stuff.

[Kasuha]

3 hours ago, Arxeon said:

The problem I've at least been having with transport rails and thermo transfers is that it seems to only work while its within the viewing field of the screen. By moving the screen elsewhere it seems to stop the thermo energy from transferring between the conveyed items and the medium its being conveyed through.

I'm pretty sure it's not the case anymore. I had a volcano setup where the arm loaded hot metal on the rail and most of its heat was lost while riding the rail. It worked flawlessly for a long time, even though I was doing something completely different.