Ecu Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 During the stream I asked this question and they weren't quite sure. I'm curious as to whether or not it is intentional that items on conveyors do not change state until they reach the outbox? It certainly adds some interesting uses for the conveyor regarding transfer of heat. However, it is quite inconsistent with pipes and vents. As such, it made me wonder. Personally, I'd love to see this mechanic stay as it offers some really interesting devices. If it is not intended though, it would be good to know so that I don't get used to a feature that will likely be removed. Please advise! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Ecu said: During the stream I asked this question and they weren't quite sure. I'm curious as to whether or not it is intentional that items on conveyors do not change state until they reach the outbox? It certainly adds some interesting uses for the conveyor regarding transfer of heat. However, it is quite inconsistent with pipes and vents. As such, it made me wonder. Personally, I'd love to see this mechanic stay as it offers some really interesting devices. If it is not intended though, it would be good to know so that I don't get used to a feature that will likely be removed. Please advise! Ahhh hey Ecu, I understand what you mean now. Sounds to me like an unintended feature - but I honestly havn't played with conveyors enough to know. Might do some tinkering tomorrow and let you know if I come up with any funky uses. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecu Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 Just now, Lifegrow said: Ahhh hey Ecu, I understand what you mean now. Sounds to me like an unintended feature - but I honestly havn't played with conveyors enough to know. Might do some tinkering tomorrow and let you know if I come up with any funky uses. I've seen a couple people messing with them to transfer heat. Since they use small packet sizes, it allows the material to get quite hot/cold quickly. The real interesting aspect is that no matter how hot/cold you get the material, it doesn't stop being a solid until it hits the outbox. You could use this to say freeze water at one location, run it along the edge of your base to keep it reasonably cool and then have it turn back into water once it gets to your tank, where you pump it right back to get frozen. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ecu said: I've seen a couple people messing with them to transfer heat. Since they use small packet sizes, it allows the material to get quite hot/cold quickly. The real interesting aspect is that no matter how hot/cold you get the material, it doesn't stop being a solid until it hits the outbox. You could use this to say freeze water at one location, run it along the edge of your base to keep it reasonably cool and then have it turn back into water once it gets to your tank, where you pump it right back to get frozen. Yes, this sounds amazing - but I fear it may not be intended Curiously we were talking tonight about conveyors being able to handle bottled water - seems they sort of can, you just need to thaw it/form it en route Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecu Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Lifegrow said: Yes, this sounds amazing - but I fear it may not be intended Curiously we were talking tonight about conveyors being able to handle bottled water - seems they sort of can, you just need to thaw it/form it en route Yeah. It does feel a bit out of place when you compare it to pipes/vents. This is where I'd love an official response as to whether or not it is intended, just so we know whether or not we can rely on the mechanic remaining. Given the new art for the conveyored items...you could say that even if it melts or evaporates, it does so in the transfer box...only being released at the end. Please have this be the official response so we can do fun stuff with it! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 According to one of earlier streams, they're aware of it and left it so intentionally, waiting for ways players will invent to abuse it. So maybe they may return to it later if the abuse is too hard. Or when they're sure they really want to leave the conveyor system in the game. I would guess the main reason was wide range of things that can happen to drops over time - state changes, decaying, outgassing, etc. Dealing with all these requires development time and that may be better spent elsewhere if the feature is not certain to stay. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecu Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 29 minutes ago, Kasuha said: According to one of earlier streams, they're aware of it and left it so intentionally, waiting for ways players will invent to abuse it. So maybe they may return to it later if the abuse is too hard. Or when they're sure they really want to leave the conveyor system in the game. I would guess the main reason was wide range of things that can happen to drops over time - state changes, decaying, outgassing, etc. Dealing with all these requires development time and that may be better spent elsewhere if the feature is not certain to stay. I would certainly hope that they have no intention of taking conveyors out of the game at this point. It does seem reasonable to not handle item state change until outbox, simply from a programming standpoint. Using it to manipulate heat even mirrors some real world systems as well. The real issue would be state change. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcahtas Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Looks like another material that heats up quicker than it cools down due to state change. Ice has a lower heat capacity than water so it require less energy to increase its temperature. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Kasuha said: Or when they're sure they really want to leave the conveyor system in the game. Not sure why they'd remove it. Sure, the rollback on Priority and passive leveling reduced the value of the Conveyors, but it didn't remove it. I've still never really made it to "late game", but I can already think of a bunch of uses just off the top of my head for the robo-arms. Mostly involving the extraction of resources from unfriendly environments. For example, getting Dirt out of a P-H2O boiler without figuring out a way for a Dupe to walk in there and pick it up. Or for collecting Fertilizer out of a mixed NatGas/FertSynth loop without leaking any gases or needing a water lock. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collic Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Ecu said: Yeah. It does feel a bit out of place when you compare it to pipes/vents. This is where I'd love an official response as to whether or not it is intended, just so we know whether or not we can rely on the mechanic remaining. Given the new art for the conveyored items...you could say that even if it melts or evaporates, it does so in the transfer box...only being released at the end. Please have this be the official response so we can do fun stuff with it! I could see this changing (maybe liquids break the machinery when it hits the destination hopper? That would make sense), but I do expect them to eventually stop solids from sublimating on the belts. It doesn't make much sense when you consider other methods of moving materials are sealed from the outside world, and it doesn't fit the art. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyMonroe Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 5 hours ago, PhailRaptor said: Not sure why they'd remove it. Sure, the rollback on Priority and passive leveling reduced the value of the Conveyors, but it didn't remove it. I've still never really made it to "late game", but I can already think of a bunch of uses just off the top of my head for the robo-arms. Mostly involving the extraction of resources from unfriendly environments. For example, getting Dirt out of a P-H2O boiler without figuring out a way for a Dupe to walk in there and pick it up. Or for collecting Fertilizer out of a mixed NatGas/FertSynth loop without leaking any gases or needing a water lock. I have 3 conveyor systems in my current colony. 2 extract items from my fertiliser enclosure (fertiliser and hatch coal - delivered directly to farm stations and coal gens respectively). The last moves ice from my ice frosting room over to my water treatment plant and also accepts manual ice feeding. My previous colony used them to remove slime from the puft enclosure for my mushroom farm and to remove dirt from my boiler room. I've not done this in the current colony as I have 100t of spare dirt and no real need for more. Conveyors are, in my mind, the best part of this update and I've barely begun properly exploit them. Edit - forgot I had a 4th system in my current colony that scoops harvested crops from my farms and delivers them to the refridgerators/mushers in my kitchen. By no means is this a necessary process but it saves dupes valuable time that can then be spent expanding the Base. My chefs can spend all day just cooking non stop. I'm starting to adopt the mentality that conveyors/sweepers should replace all the minor repeatable delivery tasks within a colony, the only problem is sweepers won't supply fertiliser to a hydroponic farm tile and that's a pretty big time drain. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecu Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 7 hours ago, Collic said: I could see this changing (maybe liquids break the machinery when it hits the destination hopper? That would make sense), but I do expect them to eventually stop solids from sublimating on the belts. It doesn't make much sense when you consider other methods of moving materials are sealed from the outside world, and it doesn't fit the art. The only way for them to effectively "fixing" it would either be to lock them at a min/max temperature while packaged in a conveyor (extremely inconsistent with pipes/vents), or to have them change state while on the conveyor as happens to pipes/vents. Given that they must be aware as to how said mechanic was abused before they implemented breaking of pipes/vents due to state change, I have to feel like they understand how this can be abused as well. Personally, I just want to know if they intentionally left it as such because it is late game technology or what. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Here's my idea for minor abuse, more of a gimmick than a strategy. Lack of state change isn't necessary, but it helps. The idea is: Fertilizer turns to dirt when heated above 125C Dirt clogs machines, usually making it require manual cleaning If the area with dirt in it has highly pressurized liquid and has no 3-tile-wide dirt blocks, the liquid will break the dirt Mesh tiles prevent dirt formation on them, but not near them There is still that issue with broken "natural" tiles only giving 50% of the resources, but hey - renewable dirt. Unfortunately the "dirt room" will be above 125C, so you can't just stick an arm in there to get the dirt out, but I've seen robot arms reaching through diagonals, so maybe there is a way to automate it completely. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecu Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 16 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said: Here's my idea for minor abuse, more of a gimmick than a strategy. Lack of state change isn't necessary, but it helps. The idea is: Fertilizer turns to dirt when heated above 125C Dirt clogs machines, usually making it require manual cleaning If the area with dirt in it has highly pressurized liquid and has no 3-tile-wide dirt blocks, the liquid will break the dirt Mesh tiles prevent dirt formation on them, but not near them There is still that issue with broken "natural" tiles only giving 50% of the resources, but hey - renewable dirt. Unfortunately the "dirt room" will be above 125C, so you can't just stick an arm in there to get the dirt out, but I've seen robot arms reaching through diagonals, so maybe there is a way to automate it completely. Someone already implemented this on the Discord channel. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariilyn Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 10 hours ago, JonnyMonroe said: I'm starting to adopt the mentality that conveyors/sweepers should replace all the minor repeatable delivery tasks within a colony, the only problem is sweepers won't supply fertiliser to a hydroponic farm tile and that's a pretty big time drain. They do supply fertiliser to hydroponic farm tiles. I dont know if it was working or not before yesterday but it does now. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyMonroe Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, Mariilyn said: They do supply fertiliser to hydroponic farm tiles. I dont know if it was working or not before yesterday but it does now. Yeah, I just noticed them working on my sleet farm now. Not sure if that was a bug or me just not paying attention. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87292-conveyors-and-state-change/#findComment-1001959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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