Metal Refinery vs Rock Granulator. Which is better in your opinion?

[Izzy248]

I have been using the Metal Refinery for all my Pure Metal needs, but I see a lot of tubers using the Rock Granulator over it. I get that the Granulator is less taxing to use, but to compensate it doesnt guarantee getting Pure Metals out of the deal. Instead it is a gamble and the details only say "Inefficiently produces Refined Metals from raw Metal Ore." So we dont have an exact percentage of what we can expect like a 10-30% chance of getting a Pure Metal. So what is it about the Granulator that makes it more preferred seemingly? I mean when the tubers Ive watched use it, they sometimes specifically state they they are going to be using it to get Pure Metals and some I have even seen put the Granulator RIGHT next to tubes and other plastic objects, not even a tile apart. What is it about the Granulator? Is it because it doesnt require a exorbitant amount of water to use? From what I can tell it outputs the same amount of heat, so Im not sure why tubers so confidently put them next to plastic

[donutman07]

Pretty sure granulator gives you 50kg of refined metal 50kg of sand for every 100kg of raw metal.  Eventually you'll probably have far more metal than you need, so if you want to be lazy and use the granulator its actually pretty reasonable

[Kabrute]

I think they are trying to avoid getting burned by the overboiling liquid bug in the refineries?

[Saturnus]

35 minutes ago, Izzy248 said:

I have been using the Metal Refinery for all my Pure Metal needs, but I see a lot of tubers using the Rock Granulator over it. I get that the Granulator is less taxing to use, but to compensate it doesnt guarantee getting Pure Metals out of the deal. Instead it is a gamble and the details only say "Inefficiently produces Refined Metals from raw Metal Ore." So we dont have an exact percentage of what we can expect like a 10-30% chance of getting a Pure Metal. So what is it about the Granulator that makes it more preferred seemingly? I mean when the tubers Ive watched use it, they sometimes specifically state they they are going to be using it to get Pure Metals and some I have even seen put the Granulator RIGHT next to tubes and other plastic objects, not even a tile apart. What is it about the Granulator? Is it because it doesnt require a exorbitant amount of water to use? From what I can tell it outputs the same amount of heat, so Im not sure why tubers so confidently put them next to plastic

Couple of things.

The granulator takes 100kg of metal ore and output 50kg refined metal and 50kg sand. Or it takes 100kg mineral ore and outputs 100kg of sand. The Refinery converts at 100%.

The Granulator uses 240W while the Refiney uses 1200W.

I'm not sure. I'll have to test it but the heat output of the Refinery is, as far as I know, many times higher because it produces metal at a fixed high temperature while the Granulator outputs refined metal at the same temperature as the machine itself.

[Zarquan]

Rock granulators put off a lot less heat than metal refineries, just not directly (as the water temperature is extra heat).  Also, metal refineries are much later in the tech tree and more complicated to use.  Plus, I think people like sand.

Also, as far as I understand, the Rock Granulator always produces the refined metals.  It just produces half the amount of a metal refinery and the other half as sand.  It is not a gamble.  https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Rock_Granulator

Usually, the youtubers, like many players, like to build new bases, as that is the most exciting bit.  I rarely see an extreme late game colony on youtube.  Since they don't tend to play to late game, they never have to worry about running out of metal.  They also like tube because tubes are cool.  I would like to point out that this is not a critique of youtubers.  Everyone plays the game in their own way, and starting a new colony is fun and I think people get tired of watching extremely old colonies.

If you do not intend to have hundreds of dupes, I believe you can use a rock granulator without any risk of running out of ore.

Personally, I use my metal refinery as an oil refinery.  If I am creating all that heat, I might as well use it for a purpose.  Plus, you get all the oil turned in to petroleum, rather than the half you get with an oil refinery.  I then have the oil dump in a cold bath (a capsule of metal tiles with crude oil running on it).  I try to avoid rock granulators for anything but actually making sand out of rocks, as metal is a limited resource and could run out (especially copper).

Also, is the boiling thing a bug?  I thought it was intended.  If you overheat the liquid, it will boil.

[Kabrute]

Refineries can glitch and go from outputting a little hotter to continually climbing in liquid output temp with each new batch of ore processed.  Thats the glitch, and it can take 60c crude and blast it out as pure petrol

[Zarquan]

Ah, I remember seeing bugs like that before.  I guess I forgot.  It does explain why my scheme works so well sometimes.  Isn't it fixed by turning off the refinery occasionally to let the liquid fill it up?  Or by keeping it full by tying it to the supplying pump with automation?

Also, another reason people like rock granulators is that they take a lot less power.  It is hard to put a metal refinery in your base, as it takes more than a standard wire can provide, meaning it needs to be attached to a heavy watt wire or a conductive wire (which requires refined metal that you can't make without the refinery or a granulator)

[Kabrute]

actually its fixed by interrupting the input liquid so the refinery can completely run dry before refilling.  It takes refined metal to make the refinery run efficiently, absolutely, you need tech to really run tech right, as it were    But once you've got an idea of what you need the systems throw themselves together in your head.  My problem is that there are 20 ways to do everything, which way is best for here and now

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

Rock Granulator: 100kg raw metal-->50kg refined metal + 50kg sand, heat:+80w
Metal Refinery: 100kg raw metal-->100kg refined metal, heat:+80w

But don't forget metal refinery also heats the liquid.

However, i avoid using sand since it's nearly nonrenewable, though every map contains enough sand and i've never run out of it. So I choose metal refinery.

27 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I'll have to test it but the heat output of the Refinery is, as far as I know, many times higher because it produces metal at a fixed high temperature while the Granulator outputs refined metal at the same temperature as the machine itself.

I test it in debug mode, not sure any difference in normal mode. Metal refinery produces metal at 40℃, not a very high temperature.

[BT_20]

@Izzy248 Those you tubers don’t know what they are talking they complain about never having enough metals and it’s because they waste it by using the granulator to make metal and repairing structures that get damaged.If you don’t want to run out of metals on cycle 100 deconstruct damaged structures and use the granulator as little as possible for metal.

[Saturnus]

4 minutes ago, R9MX4 said:

However, i avoid using sand since it's nearly nonrenewable,

Actually, you can make all the sand you like from renewable sources so sand is a renewable material.

[Zarquan]

I don't see the youtubers complaining about lack of metals per se .  They might say "I don't have enough refined metal," or "I've run out of iron" but I wouldn't call that complaining so much as noting that they need to get more stuff.  They aren't min-maxing.  They are playing a simulation game and they, like almost anyone else, run out of resources eventually.  Be nice to youtubers.  Without them, I probably wouldn't even know about this game.  And I probably wouldn't have gotten it if I thought it had to be min-maxed to be remotely playable.

Saturnus is right about sand.  I believe there are 3 renewable ways to get sand:

• nat-gas generator give polluted water, which can be made in to fertilizer, which can be burned to dirt, which can be further burned to sand. 
• polluted O2 to slime via puft and heat that to sand. 
• boil polluted water to get dirt and heat that to sand.  There are many ways to get dirt and sand in the game.

I'd be happy to learn of any more methods.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

2 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Actually, you can make all the sand you like from renewable sources so sand is a renewable material.

Oh, I forget I can heat fertilizer to produce sand.

I don't use sieve, because i think tepidizer is more convenient for me and easier than producing sand by heating dirt.

I use deodorizer to pure polluted oxygen but it doesn't cost me much.

[Zarquan]

I certainly agree that boiling water is more convenient than using a sieve except to create a self-sustaining bathroom.  Especially if you preheat the polluted water with the clean water and steam.  Then you need to provide less heat.  Plus, you get extra dirt out of it. 

Also, I can't believe I forgot it, but another method:

Meal wood -> polluted dirt -> dirt -> sand

I just noticed that all the renewable methods to get sand are polluted things.  Why is that?

[Guest]

Rock granulator is a low tech, low impact device to get refined metal. It is much more efficient per unit of power and per unit of heat dispersed. Just a lot less efficient per unit of resource.

I really don't take the sand it produces into account. I consider myself a very lavish user of sand and without specifically digging for sand, I have 200 ton in surplus. Sand used to be a very limited resource, but currently is one one of the most common ones.

Contrary to most, I do struggle a little bit with unrefined metal supply. So for someone like me it's better to use the metal refinery. However, if supply is not an issue, 5 rock granulators will by far outproduce 1 metal refinery. Probably still at a better heat output and no requirement for liquid in- and output.

[Saturnus]

Oh, I almost forgot. The heat output of a refinery depends on the heat capacity of the metal you are refining. Copper and gold generates a ton less heat than iron for example. And since iron is a pretty plentiful resource you can granulate that without much worry.

Also, thinking about what metals you need to use in which places can save you a ton of unnecessary heat generation. Not every pump needs to be gold, and not every metal tile needs to be iron, for instance.

[Zarquan]

Saturnus, as I understand, it takes the total energy to heat the metal from 40C to melting and dumps that in to the liquid, which is based on the heat capacity.  Is that right?

[BT_20]

I mean heat produced really doesn’t matter for the refinery because you can easily counter it with some abyss pipes and a fert maker or petroleum maker to just delete the heat.

[Saturnus]

16 minutes ago, BT_20 said:

I mean heat produced really doesn’t matter for the refinery because you can easily counter it with some abyss pipes and a fert maker or petroleum maker to just delete the heat.

Well. That just another set up you have to build and power before you have even the first kilo of refined metal produced.

[Izzy248]

12 hours ago, donutman07 said:

Pretty sure granulator gives you 50kg of refined metal 50kg of sand for every 100kg of raw metal.  Eventually you'll probably have far more metal than you need, so if you want to be lazy and use the granulator its actually pretty reasonable

Really? Ah so thats what the "inefficiently" part means then. Good to know because Im running into a lot of stuff that needs refined metal as of now and was wondering why some more experience players were using that.

12 hours ago, Kabrute said:

I think they are trying to avoid getting burned by the overboiling liquid bug in the refineries?

Thats a bug? I mean Ive had my dupes have to deal with the scalding temp radiating from the machine but I didnt know there was a bug like that too.

12 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Couple of things.

The granulator takes 100kg of metal ore and output 50kg refined metal and 50kg sand. Or it takes 100kg mineral ore and outputs 100kg of sand. The Refinery converts at 100%.

The Granulator uses 240W while the Refiney uses 1200W.

I'm not sure. I'll have to test it but the heat output of the Refinery is, as far as I know, many times higher because it produces metal at a fixed high temperature while the Granulator outputs refined metal at the same temperature as the machine itself.

Doesnt the Refinery use 1200kW?

And yeah I was looking at the wiki and saw they had the same heat output but Im wondering if its been changed in the game and not updated on the wiki because I cant imagine why people are putting them next to meltable materials when its supposed to have the same heat output as the Refinery according to the wiki and my dupes are burning themselves up just operating it.

12 hours ago, Zarquan said:

Rock granulators put off a lot less heat than metal refineries, just not directly (as the water temperature is extra heat).  Also, metal refineries are much later in the tech tree and more complicated to use.  Plus, I think people like sand.

Also, as far as I understand, the Rock Granulator always produces the refined metals.  It just produces half the amount of a metal refinery and the other half as sand.  It is not a gamble.  https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Rock_Granulator

Usually, the youtubers, like many players, like to build new bases, as that is the most exciting bit.  I rarely see an extreme late game colony on youtube.  Since they don't tend to play to late game, they never have to worry about running out of metal.  They also like tube because tubes are cool.  I would like to point out that this is not a critique of youtubers.  Everyone plays the game in their own way, and starting a new colony is fun and I think people get tired of watching extremely old colonies.

If you do not intend to have hundreds of dupes, I believe you can use a rock granulator without any risk of running out of ore.

Personally, I use my metal refinery as an oil refinery.  If I am creating all that heat, I might as well use it for a purpose.  Plus, you get all the oil turned in to petroleum, rather than the half you get with an oil refinery.  I then have the oil dump in a cold bath (a capsule of metal tiles with crude oil running on it).  I try to avoid rock granulators for anything but actually making sand out of rocks, as metal is a limited resource and could run out (especially copper).

Also, is the boiling thing a bug?  I thought it was intended.  If you overheat the liquid, it will boil.

Ah okay so thats what it is. I was wondering because when I was looking at the wiki, it said the heat output was the same but I guess it isnt accounting for the boiling water that is also outputted. And yeah Im not liking using the refinery even if it doesnt guarantee me more metal because it guzzles water.

Ah yeah I saw some of the other posters clarify that. The wiki wasnt very clear on it though.

Ive seen some youtubers have colonies in the 600+ cycle frame but they have so much going on that it gets hard to tell what they did and whats going on so its never much help.

Ah, I have tried, or at least I havent had a nead to do an oil refinery just yet. Havent found a oil geyser. But thats good to know, something Ill have to look into.

I mean I have my water steaming from the metal refinery but I havent seen it boiling yet...

12 hours ago, Zarquan said:

Ah, I remember seeing bugs like that before.  I guess I forgot.  It does explain why my scheme works so well sometimes.  Isn't it fixed by turning off the refinery occasionally to let the liquid fill it up?  Or by keeping it full by tying it to the supplying pump with automation?

Also, another reason people like rock granulators is that they take a lot less power.  It is hard to put a metal refinery in your base, as it takes more than a standard wire can provide, meaning it needs to be attached to a heavy watt wire or a conductive wire (which requires refined metal that you can't make without the refinery or a granulator)

Does it? Maybe the wiki hasnt been updated and they adjusted something because it told me that the Metal Refinery requireds 1.2kW, and the Rock Granulator requires 120W

12 hours ago, BT_20 said:

@Izzy248 Those you tubers don’t know what they are talking they complain about never having enough metals and it’s because they waste it by using the granulator to make metal and repairing structures that get damaged.If you don’t want to run out of metals on cycle 100 deconstruct damaged structures and use the granulator as little as possible for metal.

Ah okay, good advice. I didnt think it was more detrimental to repair something than to deconstruct it and remake it. I thought it was basically the same.

[Kabrute]

The bug with the refinery is that if you put in one temp of water it should put out another temp, if your input changes so should the output, instead the bug causes the output temp of the liquid to climb up until it changes phases, regardless of input temp, in waters case thats steaming off.  There is no "boiling" thats my bad use of terms.  Nothing uses thousands of kilowatts, nothing can produce that much power XD.  1.2 kw will burn up a 1kw wire so yeah, it needs HW to start it up the first couple times to replace its own wiring.  When you deconstruct, regardless of damage, you get full value of materials, exceptions are multi-material objects like vents, that will give you back its Primary Element At full normal Mass, which you then use to rebuild for a net 0 loss instead of the cost of repairs.

[Zarquan]

The refinery doesn't output more heat directly.  It outputs it in to the liquid coolant (the liquid in and out).  The heat on this liquid needs to be dealt with.

[Kabrute]

17 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

The refinery doesn't output more heat directly.  It outputs it in to the liquid coolant (the liquid in and out).  The heat on this liquid needs to be dealt with.

Sure but not the bug being talked about, if you pipe in a constant flood of oil to a refinery and give it orders to make constant iron while pumping the hot oil to a different biome and only pulling in oil from the constant fixed temperature source, the output can sometimes bug and not register that the input temp is the lower value, but instead holds a 0k bottle of higher temp liquid inside the machine and outputs the new temp at this old high temp Plus the heat that would be added to the oil, so in effect you get the heat from 2 refining passes in the full second round of oil, then the heat of 3 refining passes in the 3rd round.  Mind you the input temp is still 70C from the biome, but instead of outputting at say 140, by the third pass we are over 300 and about to hit pretroleum with 70c input.  Using iron because its impact is obvious faster, using oil because it has a much larger range to show that the bug is indeed occuring.  If you click the refinery you will see its inventory and see the 0k bottle I am talking about.

[Zarquan]

You are right.  I am talking about the device as intended, not as currently implemented.  I should have been clearer about that (by mentioning it at all).  Using it right now without being careful can result in wherever it is being filled with steam or scalding petroleum from a reasonable temperature.  Hopefully, they fix it soon.

[manu_x32]

On 1/10/2018 at 12:58 PM, Saturnus said:

Actually, you can make all the sand you like from renewable sources so sand is a renewable material.

But is there a way to create sand from heated dirt without it transforming to sand tiles that you have to dig out? I tried multiple solutions but can never get it to transform to sand resources directly.