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Dealing with heat - Water cooling - Coolant tepidizer thats not too easy.


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An idea for a cooling version of the tepidizer that is not too easy.

In the game should be added areas that cools when above a certain temperature.
Like 30 degrees or something. It should not be enough to just pump your water into a cold spout to cool it.
But you have to increase the temperature difference (Say 90 degree to create cooling). Like an area near the outer shell of the asteroid.

The Coolant tepidizer should have a cold loop of water pipe and a hot loop of water pipe.
So it only moves heat.
An amount that would make it able to deal with hot water as the tepidizer does cold water. Not destroy it. Let it work just like a heat pump.
The hot loop is piped around a cold spout.
(Could be filled with liquid phosphorite for effisciency)
The cold loop could be piped into your base to cool it. Or a hot geysir.  (Could be filled with liquid Chlorine for effisciency)
Visual sketch: Center block is the imagined cooler. Upper pipes are hot loop. Lower pipes are cold loop.
20170806123854_1.thumb.jpg.b5eb677d6c857f5b907567f32ce4a03f.jpg
Right now we only have the thermal regulator and wheezeworts.
I did some calculations and realised why I had such a hard time cooling my water supply from the geysirs.
1000 g hydrogen x -100 degree= -100.000 Thermal regulator
10000 g water x +40 degree = +400.000 Hot water from geysir
And this is not even taking into account heat transfer and specific heat capacity.

I use 8 Thermal regulators to make 1000 g. of -100 degree hydrogen a second.
That is 32 regulators to deal with one continous supply of 10 kg. pr. second of hot water. That is a lot.
And then there is all the generated heat from the base.
The heat is only moved.
Allthough I find them to heat up their surroundings very slowly when dripped upon by water (maybe bug, Or heat entropy destroying feature of the game).
Aside from bugs for cooling there is nothing in the game that are good at dealing with the heat.
Falling water drops have a bug.
And if you have a large volume of water and cools the top tile when that tile only has a small amount of water.
The entire water column will cool very rapidly. (As far as I can figure it out. Don't know exactly what is going on.)

In the game config files I found an item called a cold spout. That gave me the idea.

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I do not understand, are you asking for a new building? If you are then how is it any different than piping hydrogen in a loop and cooling one end and using the other end to cool whatever you want.

You said regulators only move the heat, well that is what heat pumps do. 

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Well there is a lot to read... yes a new building and it is complicated.

It uses liquid instead of gas. Therefore giving it 10 times the heat movement.
So, usable for cooling water. The thermal regulator is a little underpowered I think. 32 to cool a stream of 10 kg. liquid is a lot.

Yes only move heat just like the thermal regulator. Just more of it.
And instead of dumping the heat in the building.
Send it out in a hot liquid loop.

The key is something called a cold spout. That will remove the heat from the map like the bugs do now.

Only you will have to move the heat to the cold spout in order for it to dissipate the heat.
Transfer it to the surface of the asteroid or whatever explanation fits.
Seems better than magic watercooling hehe.

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11 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

So how is it any better than pumping water into the cold spout directly and back out.

Well that would be just simple and very easy.

I am trying to make something potentially easy, as you describe, very difficult. An interesting way of dealing with the cold problem if you understand my intentions.

Say the cold spout is 30 degrees. And only has a small area where you can dissipate the heat.
And cools exponentially the higher the temperature is. So dissipate 4 times the heat if the temperature is 240 in the pipes instead of say 60.

So if the hot liquid loop builds up heat in the 100-300 degree range.
The cold spout will work very well combined with the liquid thermal regulator. And cool 60 degree water to 40 in 1 pass.
But if you pump 60 degree water in without the thermal regulator it comes out 58 degrees.

The liquid thermal regulator could potentially also be used to produce steam.
The steam is sent to a turbine generator that converts part of the heat to electric energy. 

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Just now, Mjello said:

Well that would be just simple and very easy.

I am trying to make something potentionally easy as you describe very difficult. An interesting way of dealing with the cold problem if you understand my intentions.

Say the cold spout is 30 degrees. And only has a small area where you can dissipate the heat.
And cools exponentially the higher the temperature is. So dissipate 4 times the heat if the temperature is 240 in the pipes instead of say 60.

So if the hot liquid loop builds up heat in the 100-300 degree range.
The cold spout will work very well combined with the liquid thermal regulator. And cool 60 degree water to 40 in 1 pass.
But if you pump 60 degree water in without the the thermal regulator it comes out 58 degrees.

The liquid thermal regulator could potentially also be used to produce steam.
The steam is sent to a turbine generator that converts part of the heat to electric energy. 

You are overcomplicating things for the sake of being complicated. No one is going to understand how to use this system. 

Please explain:

60 degree water -> liquid thermal regulator -> output ? degree (hot side)

output ? degree -> cold spout -> ? degree

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LTR = Liquid Thermal Regulator

Cold water loop. 60 -> LTR -> 40 - Now cold water goes to the colony to be used.

Hot water loop 40 -> LTR -> 60. Goes to Cold spout and dissipates a bit of heat. and returns 58

Next

Cold water loop. 60 -> LTR-> 40 - same thing

Hot water loop 58 -> LTR-> 78 Goes to cold spout and dissipates a bit of heat. and returns 74

Next

Cold water loop. 60 ->LTR-> 40 - same thing

Hot water loop 74 ->LTR-> 94 Goes to the cold spout and dissipates a bit of heat. and returns 86

Next

Cold water loop. 60 ->LTR-> 40 - same thing

Hot water loop 86 ->LTR-> 106 Boils and breaks the pipe. Therefore we should fill the loop with another fluid. Like Phosporite. Or make a bigger heat dissipation surface.

Could be made to move less heat as temp difference increases. But to "keep it simple".

If phosphorite is used the hot loop would stabilize around 130 degree C

 

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I still do not see how this is better than looping water through the cold spout directly. 

If the hot output constantly increases in temperature then what are you solving? It seems like the temperature is just going to increase to infinity.

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It dissipates 2 degrees more for every loop the hot water makes.
So it stabilizes around 130 degrees in the example. Just added that.

If you still don't see the golden brilliance of the idea... Well I guess I just failed at that. And that is oki.

I can't make you like it. So if you like it the other way that is oki with me.

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Not at all, the existence of the cold spout completely removes any point in having a heat pump. Why have a heat pump when I can pipe water directly to the cold spout and get the same effect (even tho cooling is less a little) with less electricity usage and no heat generation. 

Also by saying it stabilizes at 130, does that mean I can pump in 99 degree water all I want and it never goes above 130 degree? Sounds too easy to exploit.

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The cold spout only cool when the temp is above 30 degrees in the example. Imagine it as an object always at 30 degrees.
As the temperature difference between two objects increases. Heat transfer increases.
So if you pumped 60 degree water around the cold spout it would only cool 2 degrees.
If you pumped 130 degrees around the cold spout it would cool 20 degrees.
The same amount of heat we move to the hot loop from the water in the cold loop. So the temperature ends up being 130 degrees in the pipe.

And any heat dissipated from the pipe is removed by the cold spout.

If there was no cold spout the heat would just increase indefinately.

So the hot loop temperature is not fixed. It only stabilizes at 130 degrees in the example.

In fact the hot loop temperatur would be a complicated physics calculation based on many variables.
Heat transfer rates of pipes, liquid and surface area.

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60 degree -> cold spot -> 58 degree

58 degree -> cold spot -> 56 degree

.....

cold spot -> 40 degree 

 

I said loop as in water go in, comes out and go back in until it is 40 degree. Also I could just output water into a tank with the cold spot and wait for it to cool down and then pump it out.

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Just now, Masterpintsman said:

@AlexRouI think he wants a building that speeds up heat transfer for liquids, as he feels that heat transfer is to slow (a feeling I share).

I understand a building that speeds up heat transfer, what I don't understand is it existing in the same world as a heat black hole where I can just pump whatever fluid I want to cool into it directly and wait.

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20 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

60 degree -> cold spot -> 58 degree

58 degree -> cold spot -> 56 degree

.....

cold spot -> 40 degree 

 

I said loop as in water go in, comes out and go back in until it is 40 degree. Also I could just output water into a tank with the cold spot and wait for it to cool down and then pump it out.

Yes, you could do that. As the temperature difference decreases heat transfer decreases.

But say it is 2 degrees every second down to 40 degrees. It would take 10 seconds.

With the heat pump it would take 1 second for the same amount of water to cool from 60 to 40 degrees.

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Ok lets start over and focus on one part at a time. So from now on let's talk about the heat pump alone without the cold spout.

I am completely fine with a heat pump, however I do not like the fact that the hot side can heat up indefinitely and it still works. In real life if the hot side is hotter than the heat generated then it will have less cooling power to a point where it doesn't do anything.

In every type of heat pump I can find, the hot side cannot be X degrees hotter than the cold side. Let's say 20 C, so if you want to cool water to 40 C then the hot side cannot be higher than 40 + 20 = 60 C or it will not reach 40 C. And if the input temperature were higher then the hot side will get hotter faster until it reaches > 60C when it starts cooling the cold side less and less and completely stops cooling at (input temperature + 20 C). e.g. 60 + 20 = 80 C.

To make it easy to handle, the heat pump can have a target temperature, and as long as the hot side is lower or equal to the (target + 20 C) then it will be able to cool to that temperature.

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7 hours ago, AlexRou said:

Ok lets start over and focus on one part at a time. So from now on let's talk about the heat pump alone without the cold spout.

I am completely fine with a heat pump, however I do not like the fact that the hot side can heat up indefinitely and it still works. In real life if the hot side is hotter than the heat generated then it will have less cooling power to a point where it doesn't do anything.

In every type of heat pump I can find, the hot side cannot be X degrees hotter than the cold side. Let's say 20 C, so if you want to cool water to 40 C then the hot side cannot be higher than 40 + 20 = 60 C or it will not reach 40 C. And if the input temperature were higher then the hot side will get hotter faster until it reaches > 60C when it starts cooling the cold side less and less and completely stops cooling at (input temperature + 20 C). e.g. 60 + 20 = 80 C.

To make it easy to handle, the heat pump can have a target temperature, and as long as the hot side is lower or equal to the (target + 20 C) then it will be able to cool to that temperature.

You are sort of right about the heat pump. But you really compress what you are trying to explain a lot. No I don't want to start over. I have described my idea.

But two things: I am not trying to make things realistic. And in all honesty neither is the game.
It is about making a good game with fun gaming elements. One of the fun things in the game, is an approximate simulation of heat physics, so it needs to be accurate enough. So it doesn't just seem like magic. It is good enough for many people as it is. They never notice what I call bugs.

Allthough you could argue that wheezeworts are fun. I think so, and nothing about them follows the laws of nature. As we know them. Weird things in nature are going on that we just don't understand.

I keep the example simple because simple is easier to understand and program. But that also leaves out details.

There is material limits too. I think they are fun. That is why I think a hot loop would be a good addition.
Or the pump would just break down if all the heat it moves is dumped in the pump itself.
How much heat it moves would require experimentation.
At what temperature the pipe breaks depends on liquid and material of the pipe.

So nothing unlimited here.

The limit of the game is computation power and the programmers brain. So what do we want to focus on?

I could throw all the math required to simulate a heat pump. Put it up here and write it out. But honestly I don't want to.
And if you programmed it all into the game it would probably slow to an unplayable crawl.

It could be a fun scientific learning experience so I definately encourage you to read about it. And lecture me about it if you like.

I thought a heat pump would be a good gaming element. And it is. There is allready the thermal regulator and it is fun to play with.
You just need a very large amount of them.

Maybe they made it that way just to make a pun at global warming. It would be clever if they did that intentionally.

So I thought something liquid based would be fun to play with. How the inner parts of the heat pump works. I just don't care about. I want to play with pipe materials and liquids.

But it does not work unless it has a place to pump the heat. So a cold spout, a bunch of wheezeworths, or at the moment magical dripping power would have to be its destination for a sustainable base.

You could just place wheezewortz all over your base instead to deal with the heat. It works just fine. But they are noisy. I really get annoyed by the sound they make after a while so I removed them again. And build a Thermal regulator system to do the same.

You can call the cold spout magical or give a realistic explanation like: The outer surface of the asteroid radiates the heat away.

But in the programming it is kind of a magical place that just makes heat disappear. Just to make things easier for them.

And how to keep the old TR relevant is a good question. It would become obsolete. And it is fun as it is. So maybe this is a bad idea. Maybe they should focus on other things that make the game fun and interesting. And right now they are.

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EDIT:
You know what I think the language barrier is getting too hard to explain things. And that you don't seem to be wanting to change any part of your idea. So I'll just leave you alone and move over to a new thread.

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How about something like a liquid radiator. the device works by taking water and either heating or cooling it depending on the ambiant air tempiture 

for example the water entering the device is 90 degries farenhight. the air temp around the device is about 60*F the device removes an equal amount of heat from the water and puts it in the air. 

it could work in reverse too if the air temp is greater than the water temp then the air loses heat to the water.

the devise could be used as a equaliser to help even the temp around a base, farming zone, etc. 

to help with balencing it coud be put at the end of the teck tree or have a high materials cost. 

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15 hours ago, Cashibonite said:

How about something like a liquid radiator. the device works by taking water and either heating or cooling it depending on the ambiant air tempiture 

for example the water entering the device is 90 degries farenhight. the air temp around the device is about 60*F the device removes an equal amount of heat from the water and puts it in the air. 

it could work in reverse too if the air temp is greater than the water temp then the air loses heat to the water.

the devise could be used as a equaliser to help even the temp around a base, farming zone, etc. 

to help with balencing it coud be put at the end of the teck tree or have a high materials cost. 

That would be what we do with a pump and water pipes or gas pipes now.

This idea is about how to remove heat from the map world. as the world becomes old with water geysirs and a lot of heat from buildings the entire map world heats up. Eventually everyone boils to death in very old 2000 cycle+ games. Right now it is countered by a series of bugs you can use to make heat disappear.

I would like a not to easy solution, that would remove the heat in a way that is not just magic. Like radiating it away from the surface of the asteroid into space.

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