cooling down the geyser

[deloquac]

6 hours ago, Xuhybrid said:

I noticed when i had a layer of CO2 in the geyser, that it was about 10-15C higher than the polluted air. I am fine with the water being a little warmer, it's more about keeping it under control so it doesn't overheat the base. Thanks.

wow, you guys improved the cooling system a lot, can't wait to try by myself.

[Lifegrow]

On 5/24/2017 at 6:41 PM, deloquac said:

 

 

just a pump and 4 breezeworts  (maybe some ice....lol)

Just threw this together to show you something I found interesting

You've got me hooked on this idea buddy - great work  

Edit: left it running whilst i made the forum post and sure enough it's now iced over 

[Kasuha]

21 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Just threw this together to show you something I found interesting

It feels like there's still some bug involved, there's no way proper heat transfer could achieve that effect.

[Lifegrow]

Just now, Kasuha said:

It feels like there's still some bug involved, there's no way proper heat transfer could achieve that effect.

Indeed, I wasn't saying it was legit - I just have no clue what's happening  

From 60 degree water to -6 ice in 1 cycle if I throttle it to 1.5kg/s in the valve....

Interestingly, with some careful tweaking I can control the temp of the end result water - i.e. 4.5kg's gives me 16 degree water, 2.5 gives me 1-2 degree water. Problem is due to the length pipes and the time it takes for the existing water to settle off the tiles, any "on the fly changes" often take effect too late  

In short, I made an overly complicated ice factory with no real application 

[PickPay]

5 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Just threw this together to show you something I found interesting

Cool findings, thanks for sharing

[Merauder]

6 hours ago, Kasuha said:

It feels like there's still some bug involved, there's no way proper heat transfer could achieve that effect.

This looks amazingly legit to me though. There's basically three types of heat transfer: Radiation, transportation and deduction. Water actually conducts heat very poorly. It does it all through transportation. Water molecules need to touch a hot surface, then those hotter molecules will swirl through the entire body of water, change places with cooler molecules and the entire volume will heat only very slowly.

Basically, the only way to accelerate the temperature change in a large body of water, is to expose a maximum amount of the water molecules in that body of water, simultaneously to an change of temperature.

Just take a cup of hot water in a -20 degrees place in real life. If you let it sit on the hood of the car, it freezes a few minute later. Throw it into the air, forcing the water to scatter and expose itself to the temperature, it will freeze in a second flat, hitting the ground as snow.

 

All the other systems thus far posted, are either:

A pool of water with cold air above it. (Water touches the change of temperature with only one surface! Poor system.)

A system of pipes running through cold air (Water touches the change of temperature all around, but the majority of the center is still shielded. Better, but still poor design.)

 

Lifegrow's system, where it literally trickles down, forces the water into far more parts, creating a far larger surface area.

I totally believe that his system is working as intended!

[Merauder]

6 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Indeed, I wasn't saying it was legit - I just have no clue what's happening  

From 60 degree water to -6 ice in 1 cycle if I throttle it to 1.5kg/s in the valve....

Interestingly, with some careful tweaking I can control the temp of the end result water - i.e. 4.5kg's gives me 16 degree water, 2.5 gives me 1-2 degree water. Problem is due to the length pipes and the time it takes for the existing water to settle off the tiles, any "on the fly changes" often take effect too late  

In short, I made an overly complicated ice factory with no real application 

In all honestly, if I were working with ONI tech in real life, this would probably be the best way of cooling. See post above.

Cheers! Ingenious!

[PickPay]

Works great for me and very simple, I'll see over +50 cycles if this is stable !

[Nafei]

Lifegrow's method can be further refined per the below:

Using this you can control/regulate the temperature within 3 - 5 degrees of your pre-defined level.

Note that it cools the water slower than the above configurations, but it's necessary in order to maintain a reasonable temperature.

[deloquac]

12 hours ago, Kasuha said:

It feels like there's still some bug involved, there's no way proper heat transfer could achieve that effect.

if no this bug we can't cooling the hot water so fast. i prefer to call it high-tech than a bug. we just let the wheezewort's effect expand on liquid,not only the gas.

[deloquac]

13 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Just threw this together to show you something I found interesting

You've got me hooked on this idea buddy - great work  

Edit: left it running whilst i made the forum post and sure enough it's now iced over 

from your design, i got a new automatic cooling system. lol, i will post it out later improving this system really happy

[PickPay]

11 hours ago, Nafei said:

Lifegrow's method can be further refined per the below:

Using this you can control/regulate the temperature within 3 - 5 degrees of your pre-defined level.

Note that it cools the water slower than the above configurations, but it's necessary in order to maintain a reasonable temperature.

Are you doing that in debug mode ? Are you getting enough water with that system ? Because I am not (mid size base - 18 Dupes) so I had to lower the pump by 1 tile to allow the Geyser to produce more steam/water but now the temperature is at 30°C

[Nafei]

I attached a non-debug game with the system implemented...  (it's working outside of debug mode)   In regards to the amount of water produced by the geyser, I haven't been worried about getting enough water, because there are usually several geysers on a map.  I think if you lower the liquid pump it's going to end up skimming a couple high-temp water packets before it picks up the cooled water.

You've got lots of options in regards to increasing the cooling performance.  You can add more gas permeable tiles, (from 1 to 3, or 3 to 5)  and you can also add a liquid valve like lifegrow's original system and lower the amount of water from 10Kg/s to something smaller.   Basically the cooling effect can be sped up by simply making the water droplets smaller and increase the total surface area in which they come into contact with the chilled air.

The only difference between this smaller set up is that a thermo switch is enables/disables the flow of water to the shower head when the water gets too hot/cold.  Which means you pay 120kj for a short time to keep the water at a set temperature.

Agricultural Update.sav

[PickPay]

Thanks. I tweaked my room a bit since and seems to work now.

[Lifegrow]

20 minutes ago, PickPay said:

Thanks. I tweaked my room a bit since and seems to work now.

Should give plenty of water, if anything you'll need to make sure you make a decent reserve tank depending on how you built it.

I built one last night on stream but havnt let it run for very long yet - and may need a few tweaks, but the builds there - slightly refined version of previous.

pipe on the left is where the 15-17 degree water should come out once I build a tank  

P.s. ignore the orange tube, that's my geyser-network-corridor  

[Trego]

I was looking at the thread where kasuha and rezecib were discussing the effect of wheezeworts in different gases, and testing different configurations of this system.  I noticed that in a vacuum, your set up doesn't really work at all. even if you precool the gas perm tiles..  On the other hand, with full gas pressure (2000g), your set up works with no pipes and no gas permeable tiles.  I replaced the gas permeable tiles with insulated abyss tiles, and  the cooling was still the same.  This means that the key to this system is the whirlpools created as the water goes over the edge of the tiles and falls, which is why this system works better than dribbling down a staircase---that creates few of the graphical 'whirlpools'.  The working parts of the cooling then, are 

1. water falling onto tiles and 'whirlpooling' , and the rapid heat exchange in these whirlpools.

2. gas atmosphere which has been cooled.

3. Wheezeworts to do the cooling of the atmosphere.

Since these are the working components of the system, the best results should be seen with those gases which work best with wheezeworts-natural gas, and then hydrogen, or those gases which whirlpool cool the best--unknown, or some combination of these two factors.  Preliminary testing seemed to indicate that natural gas and hydrogen were indeed first and second in cooling ability in this system, and the difference seemed to be that Wheezeworts cooled these gases more quickly.  The 'whirlpool cooling' effect seemed to show less difference between gases, depending more on the temperature of the gas alone.  I'm not inspired enough to take exact measurements of something so similar to something rezecib already measured precisely, unfortunately.  Again, these observations of different gases are based on quick testing of a system based on lifegrows, but which omits the spiral liquid piping, and replaces the gas perm tiles with insulated abyss tiles.

 

thread in which kasuha and rezecib discuss wheezeworts efficiency in different gases is found here : 

 

[Kasuha]

9 minutes ago, Trego said:

This means that the key to this system is the whirlpools created as the water goes over the edge of the tiles and falls,

The key is that it creates a small amount of cold water that then creates a thin layer over tiles full of hot water. Due to a bug in heat system, these tiles of hot water then quickly adopt temperature of water that fell on them. My guess is, the small and the large amount are switched halfway through the calculation, so instead of the small amount rapidly accepting temperature of the large amount, the opposite happens.

[rezecib]

On 5/29/2017 at 5:26 PM, Merauder said:

There's basically three types of heat transfer: Radiation, transportation and deduction.

I think you're looking for Radiation, Convection, and Conduction

With water doing most through convection... although convection only occurs in fluids (gases or liquids) and within-phase (cannot convect through both a liquid and a gas layer, although each layer will independently convect).

However the game does not appear to model convection or radiation at all.

[Trego]

7 hours ago, Kasuha said:

The key is that it creates a small amount of cold water that then creates a thin layer over tiles full of hot water. Due to a bug in heat system, these tiles of hot water then quickly adopt temperature of water that fell on them. My guess is, the small and the large amount are switched halfway through the calculation, so instead of the small amount rapidly accepting temperature of the large amount, the opposite happens.

I'm aware of that bug, but if we imagine that bug doesn't exist, the analysis that the whirlpools are the part of this system where the effective heat exchange happens, not the gas permeable tiles, still holds.  To test how much impact that bug has on this system, simply requires that the system be redesigned so that the incoming water doesn't enter from the top, right?  I'll do that and update this post.

[Kasuha]

15 minutes ago, Trego said:

To test how much impact that bug has on this system, simply requires that the system be redesigned so that the incoming water doesn't enter from the top, right?  I'll do that and update this post.

Not quite. You need to make sure you always mix equal amounts of hot and cold water.

[Trego]

12 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Not quite. You need to make sure you always mix equal amounts of hot and cold water.

Hm, that makes testing this system quite difficult.  We're mainly seeing this bug between tiles right, not from something like pumping into a submerged vent?

Edit: Well spotted.  Edited the setup to remove the possibility of the other bug, reduced cooling capacity by at least 90%

[Merauder]

7 hours ago, rezecib said:

I think you're looking for Radiation, Convection, and Conduction

With water doing most through convection... although convection only occurs in fluids (gases or liquids) and within-phase (cannot convect through both a liquid and a gas layer, although each layer will independently convect).

However the game does not appear to model convection or radiation at all.

Hah! Thank you!

I'm Dutch. The three terms I gave are the closest direct translations I had from Dutch to English. Thanks for giving me the proper English terms to remember.

The principle is still the same though. Convection is the warmer molecules in a liquid, transporting themselves to eventually equalize the amount of heat in the entire body. Called convection though... I'll remember that!

[rezecib]

2 hours ago, Merauder said:

I'm Dutch. The three terms I gave are the closest direct translations I had from Dutch to English. Thanks for giving me the proper English terms to remember.

Ah, I thought it might be a translation issue, but your English was so good otherwise, I wasn't sure!

[Nativel]

It's nice, but pointless while we have abyssalite pipes there is no need to cooldown water in gaiser, just directly connect them into your buildings.