Is Wendy Unbalanced?

[Masked_Misery]

The Premise of this post has advanced, and a new topic has been made to discuss it. Look for the topic A Better Abigail to continue.

But if you like to scream blindly at people who suggest balance changes, by all means stay here and keep adding some more whine to the cheese.

 

 

I have always questioned it because, at times the character quirks in this game seem to be too much. Like, Woody getting a free ax and Willow a free lighter. Instead of adding variety to their gameplay, it removes an aspect of the game players normally need to account for. Even on a small level I find that weakens the total experience, because now crafting axes or torches doesn't matter so much.

Wendy has always been my main character because of her personality and age, and I have generally found that Abigail is simply the bomb. She can slaughter hordes of most basic mobs, even in broad daylight, and at night she has saved me from herds of entire Beefalo I accidentally provoked. I actually resent it since, Abigail also removes an aspect of the game; singular combat. You end up depending on her, and while it makes it interesting when she gets banished and you have to wait for awhile; in general, it seems like Wendy's damage reduction is seriously not enough to justify Abigail. Wendy is meant for support, but other then her mild sanity resistance she really isn't support. She's just the living sister of the mega hyper tank character that happens to be dead. I would welcome a 25-50% damage nerf for either Wendy or Abigail during the day to encourage teamwork between them.

 

 

On a side note, how do updates work in this game. Because I have seen posts on this site mentioning updates, but I've not seen them show up in the live game on Steam. My gesture wheel mod even has the slots for the sit and squat emotes, but in my game they don't seem to exist.

[Sinister_Fang]

I honestly haven't really used Wendy, but I have heard people talking about making multiple flowers so you can spawn Abigail again the moment she "dies". If this really works, then it needs fixed. As well as this (if that actually works) I believe that Abigail should only last a few days and then "die". That way Abigail isn't a crutch you can rely on all the time. She needs to have some down time so that Wendy is forced to fend for herself.

And as for the updates: You'll need to enter the beta branch for that.

 

[Masked_Misery]

11 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

That way Abigail isn't a crutch you can rely on all the time. She needs to have some down time so that Wendy is forced to fend for herself.

And as for the updates: You'll need to enter the beta branch for that.

 

That is something I thought of, instead of summoning Abigail consuming a large amount of sanity and requiring a sacrifice; but she never goes away; she should be more of a drop-in-drop-out ally. Can summon her for a day at only the cost of a few sanity and or health points, then she disappears for a few more days. As currently, the only time you have to fight for yourself is if she dies from taking on too large a horde; which is often the most interesting time to play as Wendy. Which is unfortunate, because if I played as a different character I could get to experience that all the time; but Wendy happens to be my favorite. If Abigail had to be used more specifically, it would add a much more interesting strategic element to her existence.

 

I figured it was some kind of beta system, hope they add some of that to the live game soon. I hate when my character eternally stands in-game. Sitting around the fire while you're waiting for night to pass would be very cool.

[Kittydub]

I am a Wendy main myself and I never actually thought Abigail was too much, simply because I run around a lot and she suicides a lot because of that. Tentacles, red bootie beefs or a tier three spider nest after a few straggler spiders or a tallbird, instant death. I lost her to a monkey attack in the caves recently. I don't know if you can carry more flowers, but that sounds like a glitch not one player I know would use. 

So unbalanced? No, I don't think so, not for me personally, not for the way I play. 

[Masked_Misery]

1 minute ago, Kittydub said:

I am a Wendy main myself and I never actually thought Abigail was too much, simply because I run around a lot and she suicides a lot because of that. Tentacles, red bootie beefs or a tier three spider nest after a few straggler spiders or a tallbird, instant death. I lost her to a monkey attack in the caves recently. I don't know if you can carry more flowers, but that sounds like a glitch not one player I know would use. 

So unbalanced? No, I don't think so, not for me personally, not for the way I play. 

Yeah, if Wendy had virtually no combat ability Abigail would not be so powerful. But Wendy retains 75% of the damage of an average character, and so if she participates in combat like any other character would; her and Abigail probably have over 130% of the average player damage at no real sacrifice. And even then, Abigail still is a distraction, and a tank against lesser mobs; making combat still less of a risk with Wendy.

And to boot, there already are characters in the game meant to be the combat-centric; and they all have significant downsides in response. Wendy really doesn't, yet she is potentially more powerful then any of them when she is with Abigail.

I can tell what the developers wanted to make Wendy into, the character who can't fight and supports the team while having a companion to fight for her. But it really has just translated into, a somewhat subpar character with an extremely powerful companion who together are a massive force.

[Kittydub]

3 minutes ago, Masked_Misery said:

Yeah, if Wendy had virtually no combat ability Abigail would not be so powerful. But Wendy retains 75% of the damage of an average character, and so if she participates in combat like any other character would; her and Abigail probably have over 130% of the average player damage at no real sacrifice. And even then, Abigail still is a distraction, and a tank against lesser mobs; making combat still less of a risk with Wendy.

And to boot, there already are characters in the game meant to be the combat-centric; and they all have significant downsides in response. Wendy really doesn't, yet she is potentially more powerful then any of them when she is with Abigail.

I can tell what the developers wanted to make Wendy into, the character who can't fight and supports the team while having a companion to fight for her. But it really has just translated into, a somewhat subpar character with an extremely powerful companion who together are a massive force.

I just very much don't agree with this.. There have been many topics calling this or that character OP and I feel like everyone has his own perks and playstyle, you don't want Abigail, don't spawn her in. Easy. Yeah, there are characters meant for more seasoned players and characters made for the newer variety, but that's the whole point of having a group of various people I feel like. 

[Masked_Misery]

Just now, Kittydub said:

I just very much don't agree with this.. There have been many topics calling this or that character OP and I feel like everyone has his own perks and playstyle, you don't want Abigail, don't spawn her in. Easy. Yeah, there are characters meant for more seasoned players and characters made for the newer variety, but that's the whole point of having a group of various people I feel like. 

So it is up to the player to not use something that plays the game for them? Instead of the developers balancing it to be a better honed and crafted element?

 

Wilson is meant to be the easiest character, no downsides; which is why he is the start. Every other character after is supposed to be unlocked by playing, meaning they are not designed to be easier because by now the player is already experienced. And thus, the characters fundamentally are meant to provide variety and or challenge.

Wendy really is not either of these things. Abigail actively plays the game for her, and there is no real sacrifice for this that is meaningful. It is an uncompromising wilderness survival game, easy mode is a mod. On every level, the existence of a character that is meant to be a crutch is a contradiction of what the developers encourage.

Not balanced.

[Kittydub]

Well, that's your opinion. The way I play her, she doesn't play the game for me, at all and I find it a rather weird statement to be frank. 

 

[Sinister_Fang]

17 minutes ago, Masked_Misery said:

But it really has just translated into, a somewhat subpar character with an extremely powerful companion who together are a massive force.

Could be worse. At least Abigail is useful. Unlike a certain someone's shadow duelists. But that's a discussion for another day...

[Masked_Misery]

13 minutes ago, Kittydub said:

 

5 minutes ago, Kittydub said:

Well, that's your opinion. The way I play her, she doesn't play the game for me, at all and I find it a rather weird statement to be frank. 

 

Well, you can indeed completely ignore everything I say and just say it is "my opinion" to sweep over the entire thing without effort.

Of course Abigail is not as powerful when you play, because you let her fight alone. Wendy is capable of fighting, 75% of the damage of an average character. Which means, whatever damage Abigail has; which is solid on its own, if Wendy actually helps her that is an additional 75% damage added.

 

So yes, if you play the game in a specific manner Wendy is indeed not as powerful as she seems. However that does not mean she is not powerful in general, it just means you play the game in a manner that makes her less so. Still not balanced.

[Arlesienne]

Willow's lighter has durability of six hundred seconds and to be a good and renewable source of emergency light (or cooking on the go if you're Willow, AKA have the expert chef tag), you need to start trading with the pig king or go spelunking. Not to mention catching butterflies to get more flowers. That's a first.

Woodie's Lucy is a pivotal element of his lore, has less damage than an axe, so you won't be using her for combat anyway, and his werebeaver form in DST still offers more of a hassle than upside like in singleplayer. That's a two.

Finally, Wendy's only qualm (personality aside, which is up to be judged by personal tastes) is having two solid perks (Abigail for weak mobs which swarm like spiders and bees, then the fact she's at her best in the caves 24/7 AND Wendy loses less sanity down there) is not really having much in terms of a downside (for downsides, think Willow, Wolfgang, Woodie).

Powerful in the right hands? Yes. Blatantly overpowered? No.

[Kittydub]

3 minutes ago, Masked_Misery said:

Well, you can indeed completely ignore everything I say and just say it is "my opinion" to sweep over the entire thing without effort.

Of course Abigail is not as powerful when you play, because you let her fight alone. Wendy is capable of fighting, 75% of the damage of an average character. Which means, whatever damage Abigail has; which is solid on its own, if Wendy actually helps her that is an additional 75% damage added.

 

So yes, if you play the game in a specific manner Wendy is indeed not as powerful as she seems. However that does not mean she is not powerful in general, it just means you play the game in a manner that makes her less so. Still not balanced.

It's not my intention to ignore everything you say. I don't agree, we can leave it at that I believe, I have nothing more to add on this subject. 

 

[TemporaryMan]

I would hardly consider being strong against weak enemies to be overpowered.  Wendy's good against weak swarms, sure, but she under-performs against giants or any other tough fight, and Abigail's aggressive attitude gets her swiftly killed in those fights.  Any time you need to stop to hunt tentacles or treeguards, that's 50 sanity wasted and three days before you can fight swarms again.  And if anybody left idle treeguards walking about, or built any tentacle traps, you have to be very careful that Abi doesn't accidentally cross their paths.  And if Wendy gets put on beekeeper duty, cue the massive pile of stingers and reduced honey production.

Seriously, we have these discussions about at least half the characters in the game.  It's getting old.

[Masked_Misery]

6 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Willow's lighter has durability of six hundred seconds and to be a good and renewable source of emergency light (or cooking on the go if you're Willow, AKA have the expert chef tag), you need to start trading with the pig king or go spelunking. Not to mention catching butterflies to get more flowers. That's a first.

Woodie's Lucy is a pivotal element of his lore, has less damage than an axe, so you won't be using her for combat anyway, and his werebeaver form in DST still offers more of a hassle than upside like in singleplayer. That's a two.

Finally, Wendy's only qualm (personality aside, which is up to be judged by personal tastes) is having two solid perks (Abigail for weak mobs which swarm like spiders and bees, then the fact she's at her best in the caves 24/7 AND Wendy loses less sanity down there) is not really having much in terms of a downside (for downsides, think Willow, Wolfgang, Woodie).

Powerful in the right hands? Yes. Blatantly overpowered? No.

So, if you take into account.

Wigfrid can only eat meat, to balance her combat abilities.

Wolfgang requires food to get his combat abilities.

Wendy requires a onetime sanity cost, and unlocks her combat abilities indefinitely.

 

That really is not comparative. Both Wigfrid and Wolfgang have significant quirks. Summoning Abigail just requires the cost of a variable you can easily regenerate, and then she hangs around forever unless she happens to die. I have no idea if Abigail and Wendy together have more damage output then Wigfrid or Wolfgang, but it really does not change the fact that she is a significant game changer in many circumstances with little drawback. Additionally she is a tank, and so not only does she add onto the DPS on Wendy but she also allows Wendy to avoid taking damage all together.

[Arlesienne]

Abigail is still riddled with really silly AI (or maybe she was on the loony side during her life, who knows). There's a lot of stuff she automatically aggroes on and unless Wendy just doesn't go to these important places, like the swamp, Abigail isn't overpowered. Strong, but not making overpowered. I've seen good Wendy players like @Kittydub and lots of ones who still had to be taken care of in terms of sanity, not to mention health, and generally made Abigail die all the time. I think you are overrating Wendy a little bit.

[Masked_Misery]

2 minutes ago, TemporaryMan said:

Seriously, we have these discussions about at least half the characters in the game.  It's getting old.

Yes, this is the second thread I have posted where I was basically told I should have talked because this is a subject that has been covered before.

Perhaps I was born with a genetic mutation that causes my brain to not be uploaded to the hivemind you are a part of which allows you all to share the same experiences. Because that is the only logical reason you would have for potentially criticizing me because I happen to be talking about a subject you have seen before. Or perhaps if this is a subject you are tired of, just do not reply to it then.

[Masked_Misery]

2 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Abigail is still riddled with really silly AI (or maybe she was on the loony side during her life, who knows). There's a lot of stuff she automatically aggroes on and unless Wendy just doesn't go to these important places, like the swamp, Abigail isn't overpowered. Strong, but not making overpowered. I've seen good Wendy players like @Kittydub and lots of ones who still had to be taken care of in terms of sanity, not to mention health, and generally made Abigail die all the time. I think you are overrating Wendy a little bit.

They mentioned though that they do not actively support Abigail in fights, which means she will die more often; and thus Wendy will lose more sanity summoning her and be less useful on her own.

And so what about players that actively do support Abigail, because since she keeps most enemies distracted there is only mild risk. One enemy out of five noticing Wendy. Because Wendy is worth 75% damage, which is a huge chunk if added onto Abigail.

[Arlesienne]

Just now, Masked_Misery said:

They mentioned though that they do not actively support Abigail in fights, which means she will die more often; and thus Wendy will lose more sanity summoning her and be less useful on her own.

And so what about players that actively do support Abigail, because since she keeps most enemies distracted there is only mild risk. One enemy out of five noticing Wendy. Because Wendy is worth 75% damage, which is a huge chunk if added onto Abigail.

The thing is, if you're a player beyond the wide-eyed newcomer stage, Abigail becomes more of a nuisance. You don't want to kill those tentacles you can easily avoid and then use to fight giants. Even if you have a friendly Wickerbottom to spam her "On Tentacles", they are still quite luxurious. And swamp camps... Do I need to explain why swamp camps are good? Wendy has a hard time there, thus having to either go collecting reeds, fish and frog legs all year long and many other useful things alone or stay away, asking others for help. Abigail is a crutch for newer players, later on, you use her in the caves and that's more or less that. At least that's what I observe on our servers.

[Arlesienne]

Abigail is still riddled with really silly AI (or maybe she was on the loony side during her life, who knows). There's a lot of stuff she automatically aggroes on and unless Wendy just doesn't go to these important places, like the swamp, Abigail isn't overpowered. Strong, but not making overpowered. I've seen good Wendy players like @Kittydub and lots of ones who still had to be taken care of in terms of sanity, not to mention health, and generally made Abigail die all the time. I think you are overrating Wendy a little bit.

[Masked_Misery]

3 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

The thing is, if you're a player beyond the wide-eyed newcomer stage, Abigail becomes more of a nuisance. You don't want to kill those tentacles you can easily avoid and then use to fight giants. Even if you have a friendly Wickerbottom to spam her "On Tentacles", they are still quite luxurious. And swamp camps... Do I need to explain why swamp camps are good? Wendy has a hard time there, thus having to either go collecting reeds, fish and frog legs all year long and many other useful things alone or stay away, asking others for help. Abigail is a crutch for newer players, later on, you use her in the caves and that's more or less that. At least that's what I observe on our servers.

Which is more of a technical problem if her A.I has not been coded to break out of fights efficiently when the player clearly is not engaging; or fleeing. And like a person before you, all of these later game and more niche examples of where Abigail is a hindrance brings back a point I and Sinister_Fang covered; that Abigail should be redesigned to be more drop-in-drop-out based instead of being a constant presence.

Because the fact that she is an indefinite boon that not only allows players to slaughter lesser mobs, but as stated, also causes her to be a nuisance; that does not sound like a proper scale of benefits. That sounds like a very rough and sketchy overpowered element that because it is not restricted; coincidentally makes itself a hindrance as well. If she was redesigned, players could use her to slaughter lesser mobs on a cooldown; and selectively keep her out of the way when they don't need her. Which is a double improvement to her performance.

[Arlesienne]

In other words you have come to notice Abigail is not a giant boon making Wendy overpowered, I understand?

[Masked_Misery]

1 minute ago, Arlesienne said:

In other words you have come to notice Abigail is not a giant boon making Wendy overpowered, I understand?

Actually instead of contorting my words so you can feel like you "won" you could of acknowledged the fact that my suggestion would have the negative aspects of Abigail reduced by making her spend less time needlessly following Wendy. And also reduce the positive effects, the fact that because she never goes away she can massacre low level mobs with no effort. And so instead of her being a boon in early game and a hindrance in late game, she would consistently be neutral.

[Arlesienne]

Just now, Masked_Misery said:

Actually instead of contorting my words so you can feel like you "won" you could of acknowledged the fact that my suggestion would have the negative aspects of Abigail reduced by making her spend less time needlessly following Wendy. And also reduce the positive effects, the fact that because she never goes away she can massacre low level mobs with no effort. And so instead of her being a boon in early game and a hindrance in late game, she would consistently be neutral.

Apologies, but anyone on the forums knows I do not need to "win". I am engaging in discussion, that is all. If I misunderstood your statement, that is unfortunate.

[Masked_Misery]

3 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Apologies, but anyone on the forums knows I do not need to "win". I am engaging in discussion, that is all. If I misunderstood your statement, that is unfortunate.

I am going to make a new thread to discuss this change, as it would cater to both sides of the argument that Wendy has problems.

[fimmatek]

I don't think Wendy is unbalanced. Sure, Abigail is a huge help when fighting more mobs at the same time, especially against spiders and bees, and she's perfect for beginners to make learning and surviving easier. Later however, Abigail isn't much needed (can be still useful sometimes, of course), she can't do much against a boss, and a simple tentacle can kill her. Wendy's lover damage is quite annoying because you have to spend around 33% more time with everything and the only weapon with which she deals more than 50 hp is the dark sword, even in a late-game.

20 minutes ago, Masked_Misery said:

And so what about players that actively do support Abigail, because since she keeps most enemies distracted there is only mild risk. One enemy out of five noticing Wendy. Because Wendy is worth 75% damage, which is a huge chunk if added onto Abigail.

Have you ever tried to kill Bearger with Abigail? Or chopping down forests with it? In either way, she isn't much help, and in a late-game people usually kill more giants than spiders. 

28 minutes ago, Masked_Misery said:

Wigfrid can only eat meat, to balance her combat abilities.

Wolfgang requires food to get his combat abilities.

Wendy requires a onetime sanity cost, and unlocks her combat abilities indefinitely.

Actually, after a point, no character has really downside... pro players can use even these to their advantage. You can produce so much food that Wolfgang will never lose his mighty form, you can replace every food with some meat food for Wigfrid, if you go insane with Wickerbottom you can farm nightmare fuel, the same for Woody with the extra amount of logs, ... you can play so that you overcome the disadvantages of everyone, thous you could say they are all overpowered. Even Wendy, even if the "onetime sanity cost" and "abilities indefinitely" parts are not really true. 

I have a Wendy solo world and I summon quite rarely Abigail, because I just don't need her help, and use an ornery beefalo for most of the fights, literally eliminating Wendy's disadvantage.