Balancing Changes for the Better (List)

[WorstNightmare]

Hi, my children I have not posted on these forums for quite sometime. (which is why I lost my other account) I slightly doubt this will get the developers to implement but I rather have my voice be heard then not at all considering I have input an upwards of 300+ hours in DST combined with 200+ hours in DS:RoG with a fair share of PvP thrown into the mix. //

I am sure many of us can agree in DST's current balance state it isn't ready for release for many reasons as such:

 

[Soto8969]

Before saying things about DST we have to remember that it is still in beta, wich means that it will need more time to be balanced.

[WorstNightmare]

1. Difficulty is what DST lacks compared to its counter version.

Revivals // Every death on DST is always promising an easy way back into the living allowing our comrades to use as much as a single gland and handful of cut grass to revive along with two revives from two individual touchstones the only compensation? A health penalty of max 30 hp taken away considering with this new update getting it's a no brainer to say its easy to get that health back. Not to mention Life-giving amulets and Meat Effigies(whom no-one uses ever for obvious reasons) of course. Food // the food we receive in-game we don't need to worry about hunger since with as little as one Monster Meat and 3 ice you can fill your hunger atleast half way.(based on Wilson's hunger stat) Every winter you are capable of getting around 2 or 3 stacks of ice which I have tested myself which is enough to live for around 2 seasons as long. Bacon N Eggs are another example of a very easy multi-efficient food recipe allowing us to heal an justified amount with half our hunger. I won't go down the list, but my point food is fills hunger way too much allowing us to never worry about what hunger ever.

2. Late Game in DST are limited to Dragonfly and the Ancient Guardian(whom doesn't respawn).

Let's say you've past a full year defeated all the bosses that came your way gotten to kill Dragonfly and Ancient Guardian. There would be nothing else to do past this point besides stockpile further resources to bloat your base for cosmetic or not needed easier survival purposes. Dragonfly drops also get less  valueable as we can't craft much in the ruins due to low counts of thulecite it contains.

 3. Ruins are MAJORLY inferior to its counter version.

Loot // the amount of crowns in a single server's ruins can only total up to at most 10 or 12 combined with the use of construction amulet and only using the pre-spawned pseudoscience station, more thulecite needs to be added preferable through increased difficulty and respawning since it takes up to 2 days to raid a ruins completely with a marginable squad with you. Considering you have the usual 5 people with you each person will only have 2 crowns for their whole playthrough on the server, this does NOT encourage late game playthroughs. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE!!

4. Blatantly Broken PVP  is considered a less important fact since this game advertises cooperation and teamwork but it has priority enjoyment in many veteran players today.

Separate Mode // Players who enjoy PvP right now hop from room to room because it revolves around gearing up past your opponent to beat them which is ended usually before winter. This proves to be impossible with servers always going on until all players in the server are dead. Every time an whole server has been pretty much completely killed it sorta stalemates for two reasons not allowing for someone to manually reset by suiciding: an player/players are not able to be found, or new players constantly join not allowing the server to reset. This can easily be solved by having an mode separate from non-PvP whilst still including the PvP option we have now. the mode will create the server have an preset island or arena built that will require or teleport the last survivors showdown on day close to but not too close to winter for ex. Day 15 then reset once only one player remain.

Movement Prediction // Movement Prediction is a deciding factor in combat and the less experienced are not informed of the benefits of Movement Prediction which penalizes them automatically going into general combat or mostly PVP, I suggest this option be listed in the settings page along with a description perhaps to be auto-disabled or enabled. 

Sleepytime Stories // This takes the most priority as far as fixes go. currently any player/team that doesn't include in being wickerbottom is ultimately at an disadvantage without question and has been agreed for many months that Sleepytime Stories is basically at most an end all be all but only in the proper hands of an player that knows how to utilize it, otherwise it still leaves a slight advantage the wickerbottom's favor even in the average player leaving skill questionable in PVP right now. Linear PVP // With all above being said it leaves no room for out of the box strategies for players besides 'Rush the Book!'  someone who runs into another player with Sleepytimes Stories can end the player life without much resistance beside the player closing the distance which can be EASILY negated with an ice staff which can be created from the same station as Sleepytime Stories. I have been experimenting a lot of ways to fight against sleepytime stories and the only viable way without wasting more necessary time then needed are to get 7 sleep darts and utillize a particular sleep strategy that I won't list because it will be abused. 7 Sleep darts consecutively hit on a player causes only one person to sleep which amounts to about 14 reeds you were lucky to get before someone else and that only causes one sleep for one person compared to a book causing multiple people to sleep for more uses. 

These are all the flaws I have compile on the top of my head, maybe I have more the share but that is all I have to remember at this moment. If this does happen to get some change from the Devs i'm surely I will be joyful and maybe as well as others but these are just my opinions. Don't Starve Together is still in Early Access and I am glad to admit it still is knowing that many changes need to made to make it an enjoyable game for all DS players. 

[GangStarrWoWp]

31 minutes ago, WorstNightmare said:

1. Difficulty is what DST lacks compared to its counter version.

Revivals // Every death on DST is always promising an easy way back into the living allowing our comrades to use as much as a single gland and handful of cut grass to revive along with two revives from two individual touchstones the only compensation? A health penalty of max 30 hp taken away considering with this new update getting it's a no brainer to say its easy to get that health back. Not to mention Life-giving amulets and Meat Effigies(whom no-one uses ever for obvious reasons) of course. Food // the food we receive in-game we don't need to worry about hunger since with as little as one Monster Meat and 3 ice you can fill your hunger atleast half way.(based on Wilson's hunger stat) Every winter you are capable of getting around 2 or 3 stacks of ice which I have tested myself which is enough to live for around 2 seasons as long. Bacon N Eggs are another example of a very easy multi-efficient food recipe allowing us to heal an justified amount with half our hunger. I won't go down the list, but my point food is fills hunger way too much allowing us to never worry about what hunger ever.

2. Late Game in DST are limited to Dragonfly and the Ancient Guardian(whom doesn't respawn).

Let's say you've past a full year defeated all the bosses that came your way gotten to kill Dragonfly and Ancient Guardian. There would be nothing else to do past this point besides stockpile further resources to bloat your base for cosmetic or not needed easier survival purposes. Dragonfly drops also get less  valueable as we can't craft much in the ruins due to low counts of thulecite it contains.

 3. Ruins are MAJORLY inferior to its counter version.

Loot // the amount of crowns in a single server's ruins can only total up to at most 10 or 12 combined with the use of construction amulet and only using the pre-spawned pseudoscience station. Not Worthwhile // The gear attained from ruins are nearly not worth it besides for cosmetics or to have a improved football helmet that will last for double the duration same can be said for the suit all of the other tools are pure agreeably never needed.

THIS. I have only about 80 hours invested in DST and I'm already worried about what my friends and I are going to be doing late-game. We're at day 250 in our current world and once we're finished completing the ruins the game is pretty much beat, all you can do after that is just build structures and hoard up resources (which to me just sounds terribly boring). There has to be more end-game content, there needs to be a reason to keep playing for thousands of days and there has to be a challenge. I'd say the first 100 days of the world are the most fun because of: Starting with nothing, scouting and exploring, struggling to collect resources to build a base, expanding base for long term support, etc.. And after day 100 you're pretty much set to never lose the world. We have chests full with tell-tale hearts, booster shots, half a hundred of healing salves (which never get used anyway because it's so easy to get food that heals large amounts of health). At this point deaths are also extremely rare and when somebody does die it's not even a big deal because there's like 30 items in our world that can resurrect them.

[WorstNightmare]

5. Willow as an character is has no useful perks as a unique team member.

Insignificant Perks  // Let's take a look at the things she has to offer. Fire resistance is complete useless since there is no mobs that set you upon fire. Sanity boost near campfire (or near fire in general? I am unaware of how it fully works) is something I should experiment with more but as it stands the only time a person will be near fire is for 2 measly reason, to gain heat in winter or to cook food and since she can cook with her lighter this time isn't included and even then both you aren't doing for a very long time to consider worthwhile amounts of sanity gain, it shares the same problem with Gloomer if you ask me.

Lighter & Bernie // The lighter the only unique thing she has to offer a team and even then its inferior to a lantern even including cooking on the go. Bernie is only useful for players that are either: need to improve fighting nightmares or the rare case they have very little health to risk fighting nightmares with these reasons you will just about never need Bernie unless a rare case but even then I'd say just bring healing rather than having him take up a inventory slot. Often a viable method of getting away from nightmares is just hop through a wormhole or cave entrance, so this renders Bernie further useless.

Temperature Loss via Sanity // Never a perk to freeze during every season besides summer and encourage the person to go insane for it to work at that point. You can't control the perk and you have to carry a thermal stone inorder to even fight nightmares for fuel, and keep a stack of sanity of food most of the play through.

6. Panflute in PVP I forgot about since I very rarely pvp and when I do it doesn't contain panflute.

Rushing // Not only does this fall under the same category as Sleepytime Stories but, panflute in pvp from day 1 completely makes the person a unstoppable force that not even a wicker can beat since it takes at least 2 days to get Sleepytime Stories. I recommend this be removed from all PVP servers affiliated with the game mode I suggested in prev. post (and regular servers in my honest opinion). it's much stronger than Sleepytime Stories for 0 cost of resources of any nature allowing 10 uses enough to wipe an typical server out at day 1.  

 

Couple things that came back to memory that I decided to include.

 

[DwerBomb]

More late game stuff is coming soon, as stated by the developers   

 

[Quyzbuk]

Reduce meatball hunger gain to 40, it encourages such lazy use of the crockpot.

[werlpolf]

Wickerbottom:

- higher cost or more difficult to craft for sleepy stories

- using books need an activation rate, making it impossible to cast 6 thunder attacks in 6 seconds for example

Wolfgang:

- gets faster hungrier when on mighty form. Currently, when hunger is on 300, he can be mighty around a third day. Most wolfgangs in PvP has enough food in inventory to last much much longer. Either hunger rate needs to be increased and the food source of the whole world can be decreased. Alternatively he gets faster crazy when stuffed full of food.

Wigfrid:

- crockpot-meat-recipes get more difficult. Currently: 1 meat plus anything else removes Wigfrid's eating disadvantage

Woodie:

- Werebeaver needs armor. Story: When I see a Werebeaver, it only lives due my kindness. This beast ... no! this animal, is easier to defeat then a werepig, doesn't matter how skilled the opponent is. You even don't need to fight it. Just run after it and laugh - seeing very soon a nightmare army running with you. He even cannot escape - migrate into other worlds.

- he also needs to be able to pick up things. Maybe all stuff, that he can eat, will be unusable, but the inventory remains. Even moles can pick up items....

Willow:

- can craft something with her lighter, which can be thrown to other things. This something is burning and makes the target burn, too. Like a firestaff. The creation of these things would cost much usage of the firelighter. Or she can use the crockpot to make molotov cocktails XD

WX:

- can somehow overclock himself ( easier then with lightning ). Makes him losing health slowly, but increasing temperature / insulation and makes him also more powerfull, like Wolfgang maybe.

Webber:

- his spiders will follow him much longer - maybe endlessly until a special withdraw command

[edit] - he can jump-attack like the spider warriors [edit]

In general:

- Drowniness and sleepiness get always reduced, when hit until these parameter are reduced to zero.

- Crockpot recipe with 3 ice makes ice-lasagne -> monster-lasagne

- It would be fun to ve a way to make living trees and evil flowers ....

- also it would be fun, to be able to make your own lake and put your own fish their

- Telltale Heart should cost around 100 hp; In current situation, I can 3,4 hearts and sleep, making them again ....

[WorstNightmare]

7. Wilderness isn't good at what it is meant for. Multi-group survival.

Respawn // The only thing holding this mode back from the general community is the insane respawning. It isn't fun being able to be Webber and eradicate the world with dens creating stress on the server and also making it more cluttered. Webber is just one example and it's not the entire problem, Wigfrid in PVP is just as equally irritating and tiresome as she can repeatedly come after you until she gets tired of finding you over and over. Death in PvP wilderness is not rewarding at all as the odds of the person having worthwhile loot is close to finding nothing good. Wilderness needs to replace it's current system with an perma-death feature as it gives the feel of hardcore mode especially combined with PvP. I liked Wilderness when I first tried it but really quick avoided it once I realize there's no since of accomplishment when you can use different characters at will with 0 expense besides finding where you died. Remove Map/Craftable Map // In relation to promising what the mode states I believe removing the map and perhaps making it craft-able could be a possible addition to draw more people in that wants an real time surviving experience. When I think more about it it's would be fascinating to see random people run by your camp to stay the night or to join you. Server Talk Replaced or Removed //  Removing or replacing server chat would be a controversial change but experimentation starts somewhere right? Allowing only whispers and only a craftable device to keep in contact with your friends, (I know this could be useless as steam chat is a thing)makes more of an exploring experience and more difficult to meet up with others.

On 3/9/2016 at 6:14 PM, werlpolf said:

Wickerbottom:

- higher cost or more difficult to craft for sleepy stories

- using books need an activation rate, making it impossible to cast 6 thunder attacks in 6 seconds for example

Increasing the cost of the books is minor balance it won't effect much unless they make it ridiculous causing her to be utter trash in PVP.

Wolfgang:

- gets faster hungrier when on mighty form. Currently, when hunger is on 300, he can be mighty around a third day. Most wolfgangs in PvP has enough food in inventory to last much much longer. Either hunger rate needs to be increased and the food source of the whole world can be decreased. Alternatively he gets faster crazy when stuffed full of food.

Wolfgang in my honest opinion food is what makes him strong, nerfing high hunger efficient food will directly nerf him.

Woodie:

- Werebeaver needs armor. Story: When I see a Werebeaver, it only lives due my kindness. This beast ... no! this animal, is easier to defeat then a werepig, doesn't matter how skilled the opponent is. You even don't need to fight it. Just run after it and laugh - seeing very soon a nightmare army running with you. He even cannot escape - migrate into other worlds.

Werebeaver isn't something meant for combat think of it a gift to be able to fight in Werebeaver the biggest use of Werebeaver in a combat scenario is to retreat(10% move speed increase), harrass in the darkness or those without armor and weapon. Outside that he can take on nightmares decently well.

- he also needs to be able to pick up things. Maybe all stuff, that he can eat, will be unusable, but the inventory remains. Even moles can pick up items....

I agree, maybe there's some logic that goes into the reason but who knows!?

Willow:

- can craft something with her lighter, which can be thrown to other things. This something is burning and makes the target burn, too. Like a firestaff. The creation of these things would cost much usage of the firelighter. Or she can use the crockpot to make molotov cocktails XD

I like your ideas these would be very interesting to use playing as/aside her, increasing her fire damage is something else I can add to this.

WX:

- can somehow overclock himself ( easier then with lightning ). Makes him losing health slowly, but increasing temperature / insulation and makes him also more powerfull, like Wolfgang maybe.

HAH, sorry but this would be one of those things that sound good on paper but is broken in-game, he has soo... much going for him lets just leave WX-78 be.

Quote

 

- Drowniness and sleepiness get always reduced, when hit until these parameter are reduced to zero.

I agree with this change, Drowsiness gets stronger which makes less sense since alot of RPG's make all the Disorient/Stun effects degrade. 

- Crockpot recipe with 3 ice makes ice-lasagne -> monster-lasagne

Nothing wrong here, besides maybe making berries take the replacement... won't be enough.

- Telltale Heart should cost around 100 hp; In current situation, I can 3,4 hearts and sleep, making them again ....

Exactly.

 

 

[werlpolf]

8 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

Death in PvP wilderness is not rewarding

You want get rewarded when you die? You guys are really bored. Isn't DST based on perma-death and isn't this the interesting part of the game - in starting again from scratch? Doesn't matter if in a new or older world.

I think you mean -> Killing is not rewarding in wilderness, since the opponent can right away spawn again as Wigfrid with meat and battle helmet?

8 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

Remove Map/Craftable Map

Don't remove the current map and chat, since you can over come these barriers with a higher effort like you said. It makes the game less interesting.

I have mentioned craftable maps in older threads, where you can share your newly explored locations and areas with other people. Also a walki-talki-like-device, which gives the position of the other guy with the 'same device'.

No map -> more organizing outside of the game and more people suffering for not doing it.

 

8 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

Increasing the cost of the books is minor balance it won't effect much unless they make it ridiculous causing her to be utter trash in PVP.

For everyone, who don't know it: To create this sleep book, you need 2 nightmare fuels and 2 papers and a prestihatitator (-> 6 silk). Wicker starts already with 2 papers. This has no effort. What is stronger: ice staff or sleepytime stories? Fire staff or sleepytime stories? What do you need for fire staff? If cost is a 'minor balance' then let make the fire, ice staff, dark sword and so on easier to craft XD

Make sleepytime stories need living logs and reduce its usages to 2 or 3. Klei said, they don't want to make too powerfull things on the world.

8 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

Werebeaver isn't something meant for combat think of it a gift to be able to fight in Werebeaver the biggest use of Werebeaver in a combat scenario is to retreat(10% move speed increase), harrass in the darkness or those without armor and weapon. Outside that he can take on nightmares decently well.

With 10% move speed you cannot easily go away. Into darkness does not help much - you can see him on the map, too. Then better retreat in normal form. Everyone can fight nightmares much better and more secure. I mean, it can happen to become beaver. And then it can happen that you see a Wigfrid. The last thing (it happens more seldom), what happens, is that you come to the idea to attack this Wigfrid.

8 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

HAH, sorry but this would be one of those things that sound good on paper but is broken in-game, he has soo... much going for him lets just leave WX-78 be.

Much going for him? For example? WX isn't strong. But it is same as for Wilson and Willow. Eating gears? Going into ruins as a non-wigfrid and risking his ass should be rewarding and as for WX it is indeed. Maybe there should be a way to get these gears again out of his body, when another PvP-er like to make a fridge. Maybe attacking him with a hammer or pickaxe XD. In that way WXs will be more likely a target like Willows with their lighters.

 

9 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

Nothing wrong here, besides maybe making berries take the replacement... won't be enough.

Berries are still food unlike ice. Little changes can ve big impacts. Very small changes can ve normal impacts

 

[WorstNightmare]

8. Abigail's AI is more of hindering then it's supporting I suggest an revamp.

 

Pet Behavior System // 

Abigail's AI needs some features added to her behavior system, as it stand now I never summon her unless I ready to put her to use afterwards I still have to deal with her drifting every behind me attacking any and all hostile creatures as I go. This leads to her dying every single time to: Hound Mounds, Tentacles, Shadow Splumonkeys, Mating Beefalos, and etc. I propose an feature added to control her behavior between different styles of interest. 

Aggressive - Hostile to any feasible threats in range and supports all of you're attacks on something until its dead or you decide to run away, basically how she behaves currently.

Obedient/Passive - Stays stationary and distant while you're in combat and avoids or retreat against any threatening enemies.

Defensive - She does not attack on her own will and only support you're advancing attacking otherwise you disengage off-screen.

The different options can have an HUD on-screen near top-right while she is summoned into the world that can be individually selected. 

[CheeseburgerCockatoo]

Why not make it the stat bars change it? Clicking stats does nothing right now. Click Health - Aggressive - Sanity - Passive - Hunger - Defensive

[WorstNightmare]

2 minutes ago, CheeseburgerCockatoo said:

Why not make it the stat bars change it? Clicking stats does nothing right now. Click Health - Aggressive - Sanity - Passive - Hunger - Defensive

Well, when you're clicking your stats how would it change how an seperate entity behaves. It just doesn't have common sense, especially since there are people that play but don't look at updates so, finding out how to control her on their own will be highly less likely. 

[CheeseburgerCockatoo]

Just now, WorstNightmare said:

Well, when you're clicking your stats how would it change how an seperate entity behaves. It just doesn't have common sense, especially since there are people that play but don't look at updates so, finding out how to control her on their own will be highly less likely. 

If you think that Always on Status mod, the little bars with the numbers could instead say Aggressive, Passive, Defensive - A LOT easier to code.

[WorstNightmare]

Just now, CheeseburgerCockatoo said:

If you think that Always on Status mod, the little bars with the numbers could instead say Aggressive, Passive, Defensive - A LOT easier to code.

Indeed possible to do that, and I'd agree but not everyone has that mod. If they were to add the text without any mod, definitely agree.

[CheeseburgerCockatoo]

6 minutes ago, WorstNightmare said:

Indeed possible to do that, and I'd agree but not everyone has that mod. If they were to add the text without any mod, definitely agree.

Oh yeah, I meant without mod. I just meant mod could be the concept I guess.

[BlindGunner]

To start, yes, reviving needa a MAJOR overhaul. There should be a penalty for dying, as it stands there really isnt.

On 3/9/2016 at 0:43 AM, GangStarrWoWp said:

THIS. I have only about 80 hours invested in DST and I'm already worried about what my friends and I are going to be doing late-game. We're at day 250 in our current world and once we're finished completing the ruins the game is pretty much beat, all you can do after that is just build structures and hoard up resources (which to me just sounds terribly boring).

Is this any different than in single player...? 

4 hours ago, WorstNightmare said:

Pet Behavior System // 

Not really a fan, thats a very different feel / mechanic that doesnt seem fitting.

 

On 3/9/2016 at 5:05 PM, Quyzbuk said:

Reduce meatball hunger gain to 40, it encourages such lazy use of the crockpot.

Or less, if ice is still allowed. Meatballs are too OP id almost like to see them removed for a day and see the world burn. (Cuz y'know the massive amounts of willows you (don't) see will be sent into a frenzy and light everything up)

 

[GangStarrWoWp]

Just now, BlindGunner said:

 

Is this any different than in single player...? 

 

In single-player there is a Teleportato, you can start a new world without losing any of the items in your inventory as well as keeping the knowledge of everything you have prototyped. Would be nice if they put in a teleportato in DST.