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Bluedoom57

There's one thing that I can't get over with this game...

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Bluedoom57    2

Why is it that most of the time, the guards *cannot* aim AND shoot on the same turn, but sometimes they can? It doesn't even matter the kind of guard that it is, this seems to happen randomly with any of them, and it really throws off the entire game for me. I've been able to get used to everything else, and I've been able to have a great deal of fun with this game, but this seems utterly random, as well as completely unfair.
I was just in a situation where I was able to revive my teammate next to a door. An enemy moved and saw this revived person in the open door, and aimed at them. I thought "Well at least I'll have a chance to duck into cover once the turn switches over to me, as I usually have done". A second or two later, *bam*, the same guard shot and killed me. Again, in the majority of my runs, this is *impossible* behavior for the enemy to do, so I need to know why it's happening. Is it a bug? Is it some obscure mechanic I'm not aware of? Is it just random?
/wall of text. Apologies.
On a higher note though, I do quite love this game so far, and I'm interested in seeing where it'll go in the future. Thanks for making it, Klei :)

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AgentTrask    8

I don't recall this happening to me ever but I can certainly see the frustration there. It took me a bit to remember that moving diagonally still only counts as one move which sometimes can give you a chance to duck behind cover once spotted. More times than not however I feel 1 space isn't quite enough for a quick escape. Sometimes I will be in a corner near an open door and get spotted, but I am unable to get away since you cant move diagonally through a wall and it would take two spaces to get to another side of a door. 

 

It would be nice if they would add a chance for the guards to miss their shots. Giving the player a 50% chance to evade an enemy attack while running would even make sense. A fast moving target is harder to hit right? I feel like if the guards had a chance to miss an attack it would give the players a little more room to take risks with guard interaction. 

Overall I would say we could use either some mechanic to allow players to evade some enemy attacks or enemies to miss, and/or give players 2 spaces to move to escape once spotted. 

 

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Bluedoom57    2

I agree, having a chance to miss, and just being to move that once extra space would even things out tremendously. I think my getting shot on the same turn that they aim was probably just a bug, but even so, I would hope that it's fixed.

Something else I'd kind of like tweaked as well, if possible, is the automatic pathing when moving your characters. I was behind cover, and meant to move behind an enemy by going around a longer way (I was using deckard, so this wouldn't have been an issue), but instead, he thought that the best way to get behind the enemy was to walk right in front of him, which led to him getting shot. I mean, it's my fault of course, I should've thought a bit harder about it, but it is a bit frustrating. Your character stops moving when you run into a "watched" tile anyway, so the character shouldn't try to run *through* it at all. 

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If guards have a chance to miss shots, then I think agents should have a chance to miss as well to keep it balanced. I don't think anybody wants a 50% chance to miss a $200 or x cool-down shot. For now, players can freely move other agents to flank a hostile guard and incapacitate it.

 

For the path-finding, it would be nice to be able to set way-points. I believe current path-finding uses the most AP efficient route by default, not necessarily the safest. The game should never restrict a player's movements, even if that movement is knowingly leading the agent to his or her death, so I don't agree with dis-allowing players to walk directly into a soldiers field of vision after it's been highlighted.

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Bluedoom57    2

Considering it stops you in front of the enemy anyway, I think the best way around things would simply make it necessary to click on the "watched zone" to move there, as long as you have the enemy in your sights. And should you click outside of that "watched zone", the game should detect the optimal route around it. This wouldn't be "restricting movement" as much as it's just making the current system a little bit more intuitive. And of course keep in mind, that this would only come into play if you had them in your sights. This way you'd still be able to mistakenly be seen if you run through a door to quick :p
All that said, it's a minor gripe. If it doesn't change, oh well. If it does, cool.

As for the whole "missing shots" thing goes, I don't think it would strictly be 50%. I think it would be a variable percent based on distance, environment, situation, character, and weapon. It probably wouldn't be that complicated at first, but I think it'd be a good place to end up at. And of course, if a hit chance is added, I would think it only fair that, at least for your own shots, you'd be able to see the percent chance of whether or not you'd hit something. Course, these are just my ideas, I'd like to hear anyone else's as well.

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Shelf    10

I've noticed this too and it's thrown a couple of runs where I was doing well. That being said, these runs I was doing well in tend to get to higher alarms as the levels become more difficult to burn through at such a fast pace, and many daemon programs also hinder your progression and/or raise the alarm count. I have never been shot while found on the earlier stages with low alarm, we could test to see if this happens only once the alarm level reaches a certain level. I'll make a notepad and record during my personal runs to see if this happens, but most of the time I try to simply stay out of their LoS and let them go on their patrols until it's clear I need to knock them out to proceed.

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AgentTrask    8

I don't recall this happening to me ever but I can certainly see the frustration there.

 

Okay so this JUST happened to me. Can confirm, it's frustrating. I was hiding in a corner only about 3 steps from the elevator at alarm level 5 or so. During a guards turn he spotted me, I figured I would get a chance to attempt an escape however before my turn started he shot me. 

Given the chance to escape this would have been a great chance to "Make a break for it". If agents were harder to hit when running it would certainly feel climatic as you make the last ditch effort to reach the elevator before getting gunned down. 

I agree that the evasion percent probably shouldn't be a static 50%. Distance and guard skill could factor into the value. 

I also agree it would only be fair for this to be implemented against agents as well. They wouldn't hit 100% of the time but perhaps you could use a focus skill which would sacrifice AP for accuracy. Or a Shalem only skill. 

One other thing I noticed in regards to shooting. Its a shame ammo isn't replenished automatically (or even through spending money) between matches. I started a match with Shalem without money or ammo making him rather useless. 

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I agree that the evasion percent probably shouldn't be a static 50%. Distance and guard skill could factor into the value. 

I also agree it would only be fair for this to be implemented against agents as well. They wouldn't hit 100% of the time but perhaps you could use a focus skill which would sacrifice AP for accuracy. Or a Shalem only skill. 

 

 

If accuracy does become a feature, I think Shalem would deserve a 100% accuracy trait due to the rifle. If it never comes into play, I think Shalem's rifle should store an additional bullet over all other ranged weapons. Or is this already the case?

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Tarean    12

I really like the game better with no random chances in the core gameplay. This way you can plan the game instead of always feeling at the merit of the rng and only winning/loosing games because of dumb chance doesn't sound that great for a strategic game.

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TheCalcutec    18

I'm with Tarean here, not because I don't understand the allure of the percentage based combat system, but because a number of early builds of the game actually experimented with one, and in the end they were more frustrating than they were fun. That's not to say that percentage based combat systems can't be fun (XCOM's is great, Fire Emblem's is great, etc.), but it moved the game towards min-maxing those variables. Now, instead, it's about keeping agents hidden, gaining info, misleading enemies, and high-cost combat results. These are (for me, anyway) the things that set Invisible apart from the rest.

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obliviondoll    40

I would LOVE to use the forums "multiquote" function, but as soon as I try scrolling from one selected quote to another (using the scroll wheel on my mouse, the scroll function on my trackpad, the scroll bar on the side of the screen OR the arrow keys on my keyboard) it automatically quotes only the first post I wanted to quote. So manual quoting it is... Is there a way to post tech support issues for the forum itself instead of just for games?

 

Considering it stops you in front of the enemy anyway, I think the best way around things would simply make it necessary to click on the "watched zone" to move there, as long as you have the enemy in your sights. And should you click outside of that "watched zone", the game should detect the optimal route around it. This wouldn't be "restricting movement" as much as it's just making the current system a little bit more intuitive. And of course keep in mind, that this would only come into play if you had them in your sights. This way you'd still be able to mistakenly be seen if you run through a door to quick :razz:
All that said, it's a minor gripe. If it doesn't change, oh well. If it does, cool.

 

 

This is a good idea, but I think it should only be the case if you spend 1AP to "observe" the guard with that character, and should only avoid that one enemy's line of sight. Avoiding multiple enemies should be something for the player to manually control.

 

If accuracy does become a feature, I think Shalem would deserve a 100% accuracy trait due to the rifle. If it never comes into play, I think Shalem's rifle should store an additional bullet over all other ranged weapons. Or is this already the case?

 

 

Most guns only hold one bullet and many don't have armour piercing. Shalem's rifle gets armour piercing AND holds 2 bullets, which is a combination that I think costs over $1500 at a nanofab. There are guns with 3 bullets per clip, but those are extremely expensive and I've only seen a handful over my total playtime so far.

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HolyDeath    54

Why is it that most of the time, the guards *cannot* aim AND shoot on the same turn, but sometimes they can?

In tutorial we're notified that you always have a single action before guard will fire. Inconsistent shooting in the same turn by the guards doesn't make sense (and yet it's confirmed by others to happen). Sounds like a bug to me.

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jamesl    173

It's a bug! Thanks for the report. 

 

I've noticed it too, and it can be a bit inconsistent so it's hard to actually figure out what's causing it. But yeah, basically guards should always behave predictably in Overwatch, meaning that they should shoot either at the start of their turn (if the agent is still in sight) or they should shoot if anyone in their line of sight moves into another square in their line of sight.

 

Let me know if you have a specific situation where that isn't happening properly!

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HolyDeath    54

This got me thinking... Does "notify" counts and being in line of sight? I mean, will they be able to open fire when you move from "this tile is being watched by an enemy" into "this tile is notified by an enemy"?

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jamesl    173

Yes, our intention is that they can turn around and shoot you in that situation, unless you're moving back further than they can possibly see.

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the truthseeker    1,560

As long as auto-shoot after being seen is a bug, it makes sense. I was trying to figure out why I was shot without warning oo *cries as was one room from the elevator*

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obliviondoll    40

I've had times where one agent is visible, and another is in a "hidden" watched tile. As in, the tile has the indicator, but is in cover, negating the guard's ability to see. When I move that agent into an un-hidden tile, sometimes they'll be shot immediately without getting their action, but other times they'll be given the chance to react as normal I believe this only happens when the hidden agent is hidden inside the guard's "watched" area, and not while they're merely under "noticed". I don't think this is intended behaviour, but I wouldn't mind if it was intended, as long as the relevant information is communicated to players.

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the truthseeker    1,560

I've had times where one agent is visible, and another is in a "hidden" watched tile. As in, the tile has the indicator, but is in cover, negating the guard's ability to see. When I move that agent into an un-hidden tile, sometimes they'll be shot immediately without getting their action, but other times they'll be given the chance to react as normal I believe this only happens when the hidden agent is hidden inside the guard's "watched" area, and not while they're merely under "noticed". I don't think this is intended behaviour, but I wouldn't mind if it was intended, as long as the relevant information is communicated to players.

I was referring to noticed, but yes, if moved from when watched, their overwatch triggers. 

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obliviondoll    40

I mean I'm in a hidden position that WOULD be watched if I wasn't in cover, and as soon as I step out of cover, I get shot if the guard has been alerted.

 

Pretty sure it doesn't happen when I'm in cover in a "noticed" position, but I could be wrong.

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HolyDeath    54

Once guard has been alerted and entered overwatch mode any movement within line of sight (including "noticed" position) will end in death. You're getting shot, because enemy was already in overwatch due to your un-hidden agent being aimed at. Moving into enemy's line of sight will end being fired upon.

 

Noticed works differently when guard isn't alerted (!) and ends in investigating (?).

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obliviondoll    40

Once guard has been alerted and entered overwatch mode any movement within line of sight (including "noticed" position) will end in death. You're getting shot, because enemy was already in overwatch due to your un-hidden agent being aimed at. Moving into enemy's line of sight will end being fired upon.

 

Noticed works differently when guard isn't alerted (!) and ends in investigating (?).

 

I'm about 90% sure that when the agent's hidden position is one which would be a "noticed" tile rather than watched, stepping into watched doesn't trigger the shot. I've used it to shift a guard's aim to let a third agent get into position for a takedown before, and I'm ALMOST certain I didn't need to revive the agent I used to lure the guard's aim further off.

 

I'm 100% sure that stepping from unseen to noticed just draws the guard's aim onto the newly-spotted agent, regardless of whether you're in cover or not before you move.

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obliviondoll    40

Then it's a bug, according to this.

 

The question there was about going from WATCHED to noticed, not from ENTIRELY UNSEEN to noticed.

 

I'm talking about moving INTO the guard's field of vision, not moving WHILE visible.

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HolyDeath    54

Point is you're going INTO the noticed tile - into enemy's line of fire - so the guard should fire. Because they can SEE the noticed tile.

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shigad    50

It's a bug! Thanks for the report. 

 

I've noticed it too, and it can be a bit inconsistent so it's hard to actually figure out what's causing it. But yeah, basically guards should always behave predictably in Overwatch, meaning that they should shoot either at the start of their turn (if the agent is still in sight) or they should shoot if anyone in their line of sight moves into another square in their line of sight.

 

Let me know if you have a specific situation where that isn't happening properly!

 

if i leave LOS and then enter LOS back with the same guard on the same turn, he will shoot me. is it a bug or it's meant to be like this?

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