Everything Wrong With Wilson's Skilltree.

[mkemal23]

Oh boy, here we go again.

Hello everyone. While we all are waiting for midsummer cawnival, I wanted to create a thread to talk about Wilson's skill tree.

My goal here is simple, I wan't people to talk about their least favorite part of Wilson's skill tree to give klei idea of what to rework if the time comes for the Skill tree reworks. 

Keep in mind that this is not a thread about whether if Wilson deserves a Skill tree rework or not. This is simply a suggestion thread for klei if they deicde to rework Wilson's skill tree.

Okay? Okay. here I start:

First issue that I have: Wilson's skill tree locks meaningfull skills behind filler skills
    These are the skills that are good on their own but feel bad when you consider you need to invest 4+ skills just to unlock them.

•      Examples from other skill trees: Wormwood long skill branches 
•      Examples From Wilson's skill tree: Torch toss, Beard storage skills.

Second issue that I have: Wilson's skill tree has too much of "good/better/best" skills.
    These are the filler skills which basically don't add any gameplay Value and just tweak some of the numbers.

•         Examples: Majority of Wolfgangs skills.
•         Examples From Wilson's skill tree: Torch longevity, Torch range, Beard insulation, Beard growth skills.

Third issue: Wilson's skills does not compete with each other enough.
    Having a süper underpowered tree narrows down your number of choices you have. Which results in less unique skill tree builds.

•         Example of How to do a good skill tree: Walter's skill tree. You have a lot of unique skill tree builds
•         Example of how to not do a good skill tree:  Wilson's skill tree. You basically always ignore torch tree and go for Beard+Transmutations.

Fourth: Wilson's skill tree is insufficient and lacks polishing in terms of animations.
    Despite having 28 different Transmutations, Wilson does not have any unique crafting animation whatsoever.

•         Examples: Wormwoods Lunar cultivator and Woodies Wood carving skill both have a unique crafting animation.

Fifth: Wilson's skill tree is insufficent and lacks polishing in terms of gameplay.
    Despite having 28 item crafts, Wilson does not have a unique way of Tranmutating/mass Transmutating

•     What I mean by this is: Think about Winona's cache boxes. Klei simply could have added a crafting recipe for doohickeys but instead they went with a unique way of getting them. Same could be done for transmutations.

Sixth: Wilson's skill tree is misleading towards newer players
    The torch tree is basically a trap for newer players. You may not know this but fully upgraded torch tree is still worse than a lantern. 

•     Now this might not matter to you but I have had my sister ask why wasn't using torches instead of lanterns since I had the skills for them. Which means newer players might think it's better to use torches instead of lanterns.

Seventh: Wilson's skill tree feels gimmicky.
    Some of the Transmutations and especially the Irridescent gem transmutation not only feels like you are cheating but also you feels like        you are playing Wilson for one thing only.
    Transmutations like these shouldn't be locked behind Wilson and should be in the base game instead. 

•     One good example of this was introduction of Bright beaked bird. Which basically gave Wilson's pure brilliance craft to everyone.

Eighth: Wilson's skill tree encourges Character swapping.
    Unlike other Characters skills, Wilson's transmutations basically turn him Into a crafting station. Which encourges character swapping which is...  well, a bad thing.

•     I don't know how klei can fix this without majorly reworking his skill tree. But I wanted to mention here.

 

These are my least favorite things about Wilson's skill tree. Now it's time you tell me!

[Schneid_101]

I suggest nothing be change of Wilson's skill tree

[ShadowDuelist]

Wilson’s skill tree worked when there were no other skill trees and having a skill tree was the special part of him.
Now that everyone is getting one and they are getting better each time, yeah his skill tree is very bad.
Hopefully it will be reviewed in QOL updates.
A few suggestions:

Spoiler

- his torch skills should be cheap enough and worth keeping forbthe whole game, so unlike the other characters, he can keep using torches, competing well enough with other light sources (like lamps). Wilson with a torch at hand is the game’s signature image after all.
 

- His beard should be upgreadable with icker jars so he can preserve food in it for much longer (or indefinitely)
 

- The transmutation skills should be much more to increase his possible playstyles, while also adding new crazy items: EG transmuting bee stingers into something that fits into the howlitzer (and that only he knows how to properly shoot), transmuting gunpowder into something that fits into the hambat and gives him (and only him) a bit of AOE, etc. Maybe some of his experiments should explode as a con, making a bit of damage to him. Not enough to be super annoying though.
 

- He should be able to combine wild creatures with ingredients into new monsters with different effects. Not to make him a pet character, but to give him new attacks or utilities in the form of time based creatures EG: explosive bunnies, frogbats that grow large after a few bites -nod to rotwood- etc.
 

I think using wilson perks should overall feel crazy.

 

[Cassielu]

I hope Wilson can maintain the style that Klei described as "still vanilla but with sugar grains".

Wilson's torch is didn't better than other light sources is bad. But if Wilson makes the torch really better than other light sources is also bad. Similarly, giving Wilson an exclusive craft station is not in line with what he should be doing.

really troublesome

[KvltBear]

Too much filler and too pointless / irrelevant perks. No one should be using torches past the first few days, nor should new players be encouraged to do so. All those can go.

Transmutation stuff is almost entirely not useful and niche. It is not a big driver to go play Wilson. It doesn't really define a playstyle. It doesn't buff combat and it doesn't really help with chore tasks either. Most stuff is going to be abundantly available to begin with. Turning stone into marble is ok, turning marble into moon rock is pretty good early game when it's not abundant yet. I can't see myself ever using the gem skills except for extreme outlier situations early game. Rolling up to a yellow or green is absurdly expensive especially given the methods we have available now. I guess making an Iridescent Gem could be useful for speed running but you're gonna want ice staffs eventually. But if this is for new players I'm not sure bypassing an important mechanic like the moon ritual is a good idea. Icky is perhaps the most useless. Bone shards from teeth is borderline. And I mean why do we need beard hair transmute he grows a beard already for free.

The beard? The beard skills are great. Too much filler and it needs to be buffed or shortened but I love the beard skills, fits him and is actually useful. Extra insulation, free beard hair, free amusing food storage? Great, this is where they need to start when they inevitably rework the tree. Cut the skills to 2 each side and buff the storage and we're good I think.

The affinity skills are terrible, just not up to snuff with the rest of the characters. Nothing unique or interesting, just more transmuting. Turning 3 pure horror into dreadstone is not worth it or special enough for an affinity skill.

Wilson's thing is 1. Beard 2. Off the cuff inventions that are marginally useful.

They haven't really explored buffs yet, maybe Wilson could be the buff/debuff character? That alongside some inventions maybe. Transmuting is so niche I really think it needs to be discarded, but I'm sure many will disagree with me. I also disagree with trying to keep his skill tree "new player friendly". By the time new players have played enough days to fill it out, they won't be new anymore. Nor does a new player have to be messing around with skill trees. You want to keep his base kit vanilla? Fine, but he deserves some interesting tree mechanics for being the original character in my opinion. He doesn't deserve to be an afterthought like he is now.

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:34 PM by KvltBear

[Dingle]

Winona's cache boxes seems like a horrible "good example" of anything.

[Harrowick]

I think if they could condense the beard and torch skills and sprinkle in a few fun perks (like Walter's) under a new Science/Alchemy/Experimentation structure, that could be fun.  

(I'd also love a perk to play into his role from the Forge where he was more efficient at reviving others, but Wortox's lifebringer skills kinda defeat the point of this, though I'd still like to see it!)

Edited Wednesday at 04:16 PM by Harrowick

[Ridley]

Some are adamant that he shouldn't have a powerful or complex skill tree because it makes him a good default character, but I believe that Wilson being "the new player" character doesn't necessitate his skill tree being full of things we'd criticize if it were another character, as mkemal23 demonstrates.

I'm something of a lantern user myself, however, I end up taking the torch perks because I've always cosmetically preferred shaving the beard and the insulation is annoying to me when I fight Klaus or Dragonfly. Yet there is no practical variety in Wilson's perks. I'm just choosing to take a dead branch on the skill tree over the one that hampers my enjoyment. The torch perks have some utility in the Fumarole Biome, but not 7 skill points worth of utility.

I do also have a bone to pick with the Affinity and Alchemy branches. The former has no reason to be so basic, even for the "new player character", given what is required to unlock them. And the latter is well regarded, but trying to really lean into big crafting projects is such a slog with the crafting speed. I know that is Winona's thing, though I think there is a way to speed up crafting without stepping on her toes.

 

Any new skill perks Wilson gets should, in my opinion, follow one important thing from the current skill tree. Despite my criticisms, I think Wilson having no unique crafting items is a fantastic portrayal of who he is. Anything that he invents, he has successfully taught the rest of the cast how make. He is the torchbearer any way you look at it, which is what I believe the skill tree was trying to hammer home. So I think Wilson could be given perks that boost the collective skills and knowledge of the team.

It could be things like all players near Wilson:

Practical and Scientific

*Gain access to the Wilson crafting tab, where he is testing new inventions that he isn't sure about.

*Can craft alchemy perk resources alongside Wilson as a lab partner.

*Can prototype crafts Wilson has already prototyped

*Can practice their torch tossing, even if they don't understand the scientifically formulated trajectory.

Leadership and Inspiration

*Have their torches burn brighter and longer.

*Gain slight sanity regeneration.

*Gain a boosted healing from salves, bandages, and boosters.

*Have a greater map reveal.

 

Then you could have the Affinity perks become something like:

*A shadow/lunar torch that grants insanity/lunacy in its radius.

*Nearby players gain a fixed dodge chance.

*Nearby players who fall asleep can become a spooky ghost while their body rests.

*Increased radius/duration of Wilson proximity effects.

TLDR: turn Wilson into a science machine. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:45 PM by Ridley

[HamBatWilson]

5 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Hello everyone.

He said it! He said the thing

[Cheggf]

You guys have like 20 other characters to choose from but you gotta spam threads every day about how much you hate Wilson. Just don't play him. Play one of the other 20 characters. You clearly don't like Wilson. You don't want a character who does nothing, you don't want a character who's just the basic experience, you don't want a balanced character. So why do you insist on trying to turn the ONE character who is those things into the same as the TWENTY characters who aren't?

[Walrusst]

6 hours ago, Cassielu said:

I hope Wilson can maintain the style that Klei described as "still vanilla but with sugar grains".

Wilson's torch is didn't better than other light sources is bad. But if Wilson makes the torch really better than other light sources is also bad. Similarly, giving Wilson an exclusive craft station is not in line with what he should be doing.

really troublesome

The best solution I think is simply that the resources that wilson can easily access that are normally obscure should become fundamentally exciting. Being able to transmute fur, bone shards, and moonrocks is only boring because 99% of characters can't make something good out of them.

Say wilson could transmute feather colors, transmute more fur like items (Like catcoon tails,) turn teeth into bee stingers, and moonrocks were an actually useful for things other than map markers or light sources, bone shards useful for more than rain resistant clothing and fertilizer....
Wilson would be a pretty hype character if his transmutes mapped to exciting things instead of targeting only dead end substances and gems that are over abundant. If he let you make and use weapons that were normally impractically impractically expensive that were technically available to everyone but were more available to him it would be the best of both worlds.

If the vanilla flavor is diluted to people, its probably the problem in why people are frustrated with wilson.

(If we shrunk the torch skill tree it would be cool if we made it so there was something like a boomerang skill as a prerequisite to the torch mastery, say, wilson could auto catch boomerangs on one insight point as a prerequisite to torch mastery. Since if we are going to make his key skill improbably outcomes to throwing things making him better at throwing more things might be an avenue to him breathing life into items that seldom see any practical use.)

Say the torch skills were:

• Improved protection from wetness and cold with torches.  Shared with nearby teammates.
• Longer lifespan. (1 skill)
• Increased radius. (1 skill)
• Mastery (Throw torches to always land blah blah blah, requires 2 torch and throwing skills. Maybe an extra bonus to other thrown items as well.)

We would have cut the number of skills down to 1/3d.

Then down below we get.

• Always catch boomerangs, use less durability when throwing boomerangs.
• Grab distant items with boomerang, creatures that are one shots drops are captured by the boomerang.
• Boomerangs are cheaper (Uses grass instead of silk, uses 3 wood instead of a plank. Starts prototyped,) can be repaired with beard hair.

Wilson would have a long and dubious portion of his skill tree suddenly have a really intriguing, survival distilled effect because boomerangs are an almost useless combat utility that wilson contextualizes as a survival utility instead with a dubious secondary combat use, and one of wilsons bread and butter skills becomes cheaper.

And, he gives flavor and meaning to an OG, ancient, almost forgotten vanilla item as well. A condensed tree that focuses on breathing life into forgotten resources and forgotten items is prefect for him since its largely the patience cost for bonuses that feel unneeded and ineffective that cause a frustration, if his tree was about just being eccentric and utilizing unexpected and underutilized things in the game well wilson would be a joy because of how he can specialize in odd things that everyone can do, but he can afford such weird strategies slightly better.

Edited Wednesday at 08:54 PM by Walrusst

[AliceShiki]

I already said it in another recent thread, but here is my take on it.

Wilson should remain simple. It's important.

However, I wouldn't be against small changes to the skill tree... Namely...

• Condensing stuff like Torch/Beard trees to 3~5 nodes instead of 7.
• Potentially adding some new, but still simple perks (Something that buffs spears? Endothermic torches? Stuff like that).

Basically, give him more power, but not a crazy amount of power, while maintaining his low complexity. I think that could be a good improvement.

[Wawchik]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You guys have like 20 other characters to choose from but you gotta spam threads every day about how much you hate Wilson. Just don't play him. Play one of the other 20 characters. You clearly don't like Wilson. You don't want a character who does nothing, you don't want a character who's just the basic experience, you don't want a balanced character. So why do you insist on trying to turn the ONE character who is those things into the same as the TWENTY characters who aren't?

This would be valid if 70% of his tree wasn't filler or beyond niche perks 

[Walrusst]

Speaking of the non torch/throwing side of the tree.....

Wilson would benefit heavily from a grab bag segment to his tree next to the beard skills. Walter has his scout skills that are non-sequential and cover really random differing interests. A gentleman like wilson would benefit if the beard tree was short but below it there was like 4 skills that were useful generic bonuses pushing him in random eccentric directions of vanilla+.

There is a lot of room for things you could do here because just think of the things that a lot of the ubiquitous server side quality of life mods do, but also you could add a bit of wilsons flavor to it.

Say, wilson could wield a razor for better harvesting with a "Shaver Saver": Chance of bonus grass/twigs/similar items from their sources, but also being able to pick cactus at lower self damage, can quickly chop tumbleweeds, etc etc.
Wilson can wear a shirt with a backpack, but not armor.
ETC.

4 random boons that aren't universal game changers but let you get some utility from having spare points at the end of the tree.
Since currently his tree is structured like you need 6 points for what you would use to get 1 thing from walters scouting skill grab bag.

Edited Wednesday at 10:16 PM by Walrusst

[Well-met]

9 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

First issue that I have: Wilson's skill tree locks meaningfull skills behind filler skill

Second issue that I have: Wilson's skill tree has too much of "good/better/best" skills.

Obviously klei's preliminary intent for skill trees at the beginning were for them to be like literally all skill trees in other videogames, where you invest many levels into the same things, up until wolfgang's tree where everyone revolted against this and opted for free instant bonus trees instead. Calling this out today makes no sense when the plans then were deliberately going for this.

9 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Third issue: Wilson's skills does not compete with each other enough.

•        You basically always ignore torch tree and go for Beard+Transmutations.

Speak for yourself. I main wilson and the torch tree is awesome, never having to care about lantern rushes and those stupid bulb runs. Even better in caveless worlds

 

10 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Fourth: Wilson's skill tree is insufficient and lacks polishing in terms of animations.
    Despite having 28 different Transmutations, Wilson does not have any unique crafting animation whatsoever.

•         Examples: Wormwoods Lunar cultivator and Woodies Wood carving skill both have a unique crafting animation.

No one cares about this

10 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Fifth: Wilson's skill tree is insufficent and lacks polishing in terms of gameplay.
    Despite having 28 item crafts, Wilson does not have a unique way of Tranmutating/mass Transmutating

•     What I mean by this is: Think about Winona's cache boxes. Klei simply could have added a crafting recipe for doohickeys but instead they went with a unique way of getting them. Same could be done for transmutations.

How about no? The whole point of his special transmutes is to be efficient and fast

10 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Sixth: Wilson's skill tree is misleading towards newer players
    The torch tree is basically a trap for newer players. You may not know this but fully upgraded torch tree is still worse than a lantern. 

•     Now this might not matter to you but I have had my sister ask why wasn't using torches instead of lanterns since I had the skills for them. Which means newer players might think it's better to use torches instead of lanterns.

Seventh: Wilson's skill tree feels gimmicky.
    Some of the Transmutations and especially the Irridescent gem transmutation not only feels like you are cheating but also you feels like        you are playing Wilson for one thing only.
    Transmutations like these shouldn't be locked behind Wilson and should be in the base game instead. 

•     One good example of this was introduction of Bright beaked bird. Which basically gave Wilson's pure brilliance craft to everyone.

Eighth: Wilson's skill tree encourges Character swapping.
    Unlike other Characters skills, Wilson's transmutations basically turn him Into a crafting station. Which encourges character swapping which is...  well, a bad thing.

•     I don't know how klei can fix this without majorly reworking his skill tree. But I wanted to mention here.

These 3 points are imagined or filler, sorry.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Walrusst said:

The best solution I think is simply that the resources that wilson can easily access that are normally obscure should become fundamentally exciting. Being able to transmute fur, bone shards, and moonrocks is only boring because 99% of characters can't make something good out of them.

Say wilson could transmute feather colors, transmute more fur like items (Like catcoon tails,) turn teeth into bee stingers, and moonrocks were an actually useful for things other than map markers or light sources, bone shards useful for more than rain resistant clothing and fertilizer....
Wilson would be a pretty hype character if his transmutes mapped to exciting things instead of targeting only dead end substances and gems that are over abundant. If he let you make and use weapons that were normally impractically impractically expensive that were technically available to everyone but were more available to him it would be the best of both worlds.

If the vanilla flavor is diluted to people, its probably the problem in why people are frustrated with wilson.

(If we shrunk the torch skill tree it would be cool if we made it so there was something like a boomerang skill as a prerequisite to the torch mastery, say, wilson could auto catch boomerangs on one insight point as a prerequisite to torch mastery. Since if we are going to make his key skill improbably outcomes to throwing things making him better at throwing more things might be an avenue to him breathing life into items that seldom see any practical use.)

Say the torch skills were:

• Improved protection from wetness and cold with torches.  Shared with nearby teammates.
• Longer lifespan. (1 skill)
• Increased radius. (1 skill)
• Mastery (Throw torches to always land blah blah blah, requires 2 torch and throwing skills. Maybe an extra bonus to other thrown items as well.)

We would have cut the number of skills down to 1/3d.

Then down below we get.

• Always catch boomerangs, use less durability when throwing boomerangs.
• Grab distant items with boomerang, creatures that are one shots drops are captured by the boomerang.
• Boomerangs are cheaper (Uses grass instead of silk, uses 3 wood instead of a plank. Starts prototyped,) can be repaired with beard hair.

Wilson would have a long and dubious portion of his skill tree suddenly have a really intriguing, survival distilled effect because boomerangs are an almost useless combat utility that wilson contextualizes as a survival utility instead with a dubious secondary combat use, and one of wilsons bread and butter skills becomes cheaper.

And, he gives flavor and meaning to an OG, ancient, almost forgotten vanilla item as well. A condensed tree that focuses on breathing life into forgotten resources and forgotten items is prefect for him since its largely the patience cost for bonuses that feel unneeded and ineffective that cause a frustration, if his tree was about just being eccentric and utilizing unexpected and underutilized things in the game well wilson would be a joy because of how he can specialize in odd things that everyone can do, but he can afford such weird strategies slightly better.

Letting Wilson repair certain things with beard hair would be really funny and useful.

On that note, I think it would be great if Wilson was redesigned to get a bunch of one-off perks that simply buffed or added new utility to existing science and alchemy machine crafts. This would be especially fun for niche items, and items associated with newer players.

Some random ideas:

- Perk that makes wilson craft spears, boomerangs, and wood suits with 50% more durability than normal.

- Rabbit traps wilson places are more likely to attract things that can be caught, and bird traps he places also have higher chances to be successful, faster.

Thats all I could think of.

[Walrusst]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Letting Wilson repair certain things with beard hair would be really funny and useful.

On that note, I think it would be great if Wilson was redesigned to get a bunch of one-off perks that simply buffed or added new utility to existing science and alchemy machine crafts. This would be especially fun for niche items, and items associated with newer players.

Some random ideas:

- Perk that makes wilson craft spears, boomerangs, and wood suits with 50% more durability than normal.

- Rabbit traps wilson places are more likely to attract things that can be caught, and bird traps he places also have higher chances to be successful, faster.

Thats all I could think of.

I feel like focusing on survival utility items from the base tree is probably the wisest here. The boomerang I mentioned specifically because its use as a weapon is super dubious as its mostly good for bird hunting.

Good traps though is a very reasonable thing for him, since the idea of mass hunting birds would be useful if my idea for being able to dye bird feathers gets accepted, since the idea being that abundant access to dyed bird feathers would let him utilize a certain rare, expensive, and hard to stack item more than other characters. His combat uses should be incidental because he can manage and exploit things that other characters just can't get enough of to be practically viable.

His strength comes from mastery of the games trivia, not being a strong fighter. He can't be, he'll yell at you to go for the eyes against a rock with hardly the smallest notion of having any sort of extremities.
There isn't a shortage of strong enough mechanics to make wilson useful in the base kit, making him good at accessing said items quickly gives him that economy where he can be very hype and helpful.

Edited yesterday at 12:26 AM by Walrusst

[Nikki Darks]

I don't ever play Wilson, but I always thought it'd be cool if his entire skill tree was about alchemy or transmutation.

Just a lot of resource transmutation.

[Walrusst]

Actually, idea for grab bag skills: What if they were themed after the early updates of don't starve?

The birds the bees and the hounds trying to kill you (some bonus to animal traps/tooth traps/bee mines? This was when the developers were trying to force players to fight dishonestly instead of taking fair fights after all!)

Winter, the caves, and so many of the iconic elements of the game came out in 2013 prior to the strange new powers update that made it so characters had a distinct flavor that de-wilsoned them.

What if Wilson flavor in the grab bag skills was bonuses to the things from before strange new powers? Its a bit vague but like. Pig houses and rabbit hutches were basically getting reworked every patch back then this could go somewhere interesting. Tallbird taming, hunting, the caves, winter itself, and even going insane were here.

Edited 23 hours ago by Walrusst

[lowercasename]

Personally I really wish Wilson just has stuff like faster cooking (like Willow), crafting (like Winona), and higher sanity modifier (also like Willow, and while beardless, so there's a reason to stay as such) at very least if anything more complicated is off the table.
They can even toss in skill node to unlock cooking using torch (like Willow's Lighter does) in there while at it.

Oh and maybe built-in Science Machine (like Wickerbottom) too.
And maybe even built-in Alchemy Engine through skill nodes to prototype stuff on the go for early-mid game when you still have a lot of stuff to unlock.
And also to use them as emergency sanity boosts if you need that.
So not exactly like Wickerbottom who has them pre-unlocked instead, just access to prototype them anywhere.

On those other characters they're really just these "nice to have" part of their kit that comes as a free bonus on top of their actual main gimmick anyway, but having all of them in one character I feel like could be an actual meaningful advantage.

Maybe even stuff like faster gathering ala Woodie's skill tree Quick Picker too for grass and saplings.

Really, just stuff that makes playing as Wilson to be very convenient (especially early in a world) if "raw power" is outside of his design scope.

By the time a world reach later points in progression there's high chance that the player would have access to enough purple gems+moon rocks to swap out of him too anyway.
And I think it's fine to have him as a swap-out character. Some characters are already like that anyway, but having early game convenience would at least make starting/entering an world early as him to still be desirable instead of solely for their gimmick (i.e Wickerbottom Moonstorm Lightning Rod farm) that the player would then swap out of.

Nothing wrong with having a character with solid fundamentals with total lack of flashiness.

Edited 22 hours ago by lowercasename

[HowlVoid]

7 hours ago, Well-met said:

 

What in the world is a latern rush? You make it on day 1 instead of day 2? 

Genuinely never heard of a lantern rush.