Raid Bosses vs Wolfgang (x2) & Boss scaling controversy

[AliceShiki]

3 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

many think that health is awful, and if it got reduced down to 10k it'd be less drag. like genuinely if ppl remove the larvae gimmick (most do with wall methods) then what is it really? just a boring basic single target boss. it doesnt have an interesting gimmick, and the larvaes are just key and lock design due to how much health they have for most characters

Well, I like larvae phase and I like Enraged Phase, so that's why I'm fine with Dfly's HP.

Sure, I would like it more if no 2 larvaes could spawn from the same pool and their HP was slightly lowered, but it's not a big deal to remove my enjoyment of the fight.

I feel like a lot of people who dislike the huge HP also use Walls and Panflute, and like... Yeah, if one skips both Larvae and Enraged Phase, then Dfly is just a glorified Beefalo, of course those people will dislike it then.

And for the record, I love the fact that Dfly is as easy to cheese as it is... A sandbox game being cheesable is a feature, not a bug to me... Just well, when talking about potential changes to the fight, I generally look at the non-cheesed fight... And when you do handle the larvae and enraged phase properly, I feel like the 27k HP is fine~

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, RubLog6 said:

I'm more confused about the fact that you intend to return to a post rift boss fight with day 1 equipment when it clearly didnt work the first time round.

It’s Pre-Rifts, this is the thing you need to kill to Start the Rifts so the weapons I should be using on it are things like DarkSwords (I’m using Moonglass Swords & Wigfrids Upgraded battle spears on it) but I’m massively cheating by having a friend join the game world as Wolfgang to help me, which instantly makes the boss halve HALF of all of its phases health bars, this isn’t me hating on Wolfgang… it’s me asking the Developers of this game Why in order to enjoy boss fights so I need to pester a friend who hardly plays DST to join my world and help punch this thing a few times just to “Handicap”  its Health Bar? In Addition to my friend selecting to play as Wolfgang to instant nerf CC health to half, I also have Wigfrids Battle Reprise song or whatever it’s called so that when my buddy DOES inevitably die.. I can Smack the CC up and to fill her inspiration Meter and then let out a Battle Cry to Revive my fallen comrade right back into action. Doing this we have managed to get CC to Phase 3, but my friend had to go to bed and I had to flee the fight and return to base.

I need you to understand that if I had a Third person playing with us, Rather that person was Wendy with Abby or a Second Wolfgang, that this boss would already be dead.

But items used on it: Walking Canes, Cobblestone Roads, 8 Perogi for each of us, 3 bunny stews, 4 upgraded commanders helmets for each of us, 1 marble armor (only for the Wolfgang) 3 Moonglass swords for each of us, 2 upgraded battle spears for each of us, and a lot of Glommers goop (only for Wolfgang because Wigfrid can’t eat it.) This thing still isn’t dead, which wouldn’t be no where NEAR as big of a problem if I could chip away at its health, retreat and heal up and come back to finish the job later, but DST bosses (most of them anyway…) regenerate their health if you flee the area. 
 

And right there I want the Klei devs to understand that these bosses would actually be do-able solo without needing a very high skill threshold, or a ton of late game items & over preparation, if they did not regenerate and Un-Do all the tools, armor and healing you’ve already wasted on it. For right now though: the only way for me to reasonably be able to enjoy these raid bosses is by begging a friend to join my world as Wolfgang.

Edited Sunday at 03:23 PM by Mike23Ua

[Baark0]

18 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

When you say multiplayer, how many people at a bare minimum does Klei expect to play? Because let me tell you I have spent ALL DAY TODAY trying to kill the Celestial Champion, I had a friend join my world as Wolfgang so we can achieve killing him even faster, and so far: We made it to phase 3, roll back sends us back to the start of phase 3 and holy hell… Roll back- Wait out loading screen, Boss in Face as soon as it’s done loading, Die. Rollback again.

It has NOT been fun and at this point WHO does Klei design this game for machiovists? Expert Kiters? This thing ignores any armor even though I stock piled commander helms ahead of the fight, I created about 5 Perogi & 8 bunny stew, the worst part was probably the continuous rollbacks during Phase Two where as soon as the world would load Silly boss goes SPINNNNN and regardless of armor, OR Walking Cane, your not prepared for that SPIN as soon as the Rollback is done loading.

My friend who was helping me gave up on phase Three and has to go to bed now. I have retreated back to my base to craft more Perogi & commander helms. I’ve played some of the hardest RogueLites you can name, that felt more fair then this. It NEEDS to be adjusted, otherwise: Only groups of players or highly skilled players (which me and my friend are not…) can possibly enjoy this.

Commander helms are pretty terrible, as they're more expensive than a battle helm but have the exact same protection, only have 183 more durability than battle helms, and they don't even provide any unique benefits other than knockback immunity. It's entirely outclassed by the dreadstone helm, especially as Wigfrid who has built in sanity and life steal.

Since you're fighting on the lunar island, consider making some night armor. It gives 95% protection alongside lowering your sanity on hit, which is actually really helpful when dealing with lunacy. It takes a bit of time to get lots of them since you need 3 papyrus per armor, but its easily the 2nd best armor for fighting CC, second only to bone armor. Also make sure you're using actually good weapons, you're playing Wigfrid so you have acces to the elding spear and you should be using it.

CC's spin attack's speed is determined by your own speed bonuses, so if you're a WX with a mag, cane, and 3 speed circuits, it'll fly towards you at mach 10, but if you have no speed bonuses then it'll only be slightly faster than you. The easiest way to deal with this is to simply take off any speed boosting items before it begins the spin, which might sound impossible to predict, but CC phase 2 has a very simple pattern that once you learn can easily become muscle memory. It goes gestalt wave > moonglass walls > swipe attack, but every 2 attacks it'll do another spin attack (except sometimes it'll start doing 3 attacks and then spin, I have no clue why it does this but I assume it's either something to do with CC's health dropping to a certain threshold or a something caused by doing lots of damage very quickly).

Also, those rollback things are just how rollbacks work. If the game saved at a bad time then that's no fault of the boss or Klei.

 

Edited Sunday at 08:40 PM by Baark0

[BB Marioni]

Kiting ang melee-ing bosses isnt the only way to fight them. Winona catapults and wurt merms can easily out-dps two wolfgangs. 

[RubLog6]

My bad, I've been seeing so many complaints on celestial scion my brain instantly jumped to that 😅.

Cobblestones are not good for this boss (phase 2 mostly), but it's  great that you made it to phase 3. I think phase 3 is more about patience and learning the patterns than anything. Have a lazy deserter somewhat nearby for wig to reduce her sanity my spam clicking since she cant eat greencaps.

As Baark0 said night armor is really good. Me personally, id go for thulecite armor and crowns if I wasnt very good at this fight (use amulets to make more).

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, RubLog6 said:

My bad, I've been seeing so many complaints on celestial scion my brain instantly jumped to that 😅.

Cobblestones are not good for this boss (phase 2 mostly), but it's  great that you made it to phase 3. I think phase 3 is more about patience and learning the patterns than anything. Have a lazy deserter somewhat nearby for wig to reduce her sanity my spam clicking since she cant eat greencaps.

As Baark0 said night armor is really good. Me personally, id go for thulecite armor and crowns if I wasnt very good at this fight (use amulets to make more).

The problem I’m running into is that NONE of the Celestial Questline (that long RPG quest you go on to reach being able to even summon CC) even REMOTELY Suggests that I’d need any of this stuff.. yes there are guides where people are using things like “Bone Armors” but that’s not the casual player experience, we are running at this thing with commanders helms, battle helms, and glass swords.

To Klei’s credit: At least unlocking the glass swords are a manditory requirement (you set up the alters and learn to craft them) but if you happen to rush the CC activation, you’ll end up locked out of having access to those swords too.

Nothing leading up to CC suggested I would even need a weathering pain, or long range melee items. Phase 1 & Phase 2 didn’t suggest I would need them, and I wouldn’t even know people use the weather pain to smash the sleepy night night crystals had it not been for watching a boss fight video of someone fighting it.

So NOW my game world is locked to permanently being full moon nights until a miraculously manage to kill this thing and this is night Two of the two of us effectively getting nowhere fighting it.

At this point needless to say I’m getting a bit frustrated, and if I wasn’t locked out of using the celestial portal to swap characters I’d switch over to Wolfgang myself so it’s dead twice as fast…

But for anyone who has reached CC but can not defeat CC.. being stuck at this specific point is 😡

We are trying.. so at least give us credit on that behalf, but the more we try to do this fight and fail… the more we realize just how fast this boss would Die if we brought in a 3rd player.

the entire point of this thread isn’t to ask for heavy nerfs to Wolfgang, it’s to ask why bosses can not be better balanced for 1-2 players because 3 or more as intended… we’d be done with him by now.

[Frashaw27]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The problem I’m running into is that NONE of the Celestial Questline (that long RPG quest you go on to reach being able to even summon CC) even REMOTELY Suggests that I’d need any of this stuff.. yes there are guides where people are using things like “Bone Armors” but that’s not the casual player experience, we are running at this thing with commanders helms, battle helms, and glass swords.

I mean, yes you don't NEED any of the other stuff to fight the boss besides a walking cane and magilumenessence which you can't have possibly known prior to a first fight. However, you need the opulant gem in order to start up the Archives. This means that you need to go to the ruins to make/steal a star caller's staff in order to do the moonstone event. The only other options is to get the sucken treasure set piece and hope you get a star caller's staff as it isn't guaranteed or to go to Wilson and use his skill tree to craft one. The issue with the latter being that your more then likely not going to get the resources to make it unless you either kill Dragonfly, get lucky with various rng drops from tumbleweeds and sunken treasures, or go to the ruins. The most common route is going to the ruins which shows you these better weapons and armor, which would incentivize the player to use them against bigger bosses. Nothing is truly needed for a majority of bosses. You can technically kill Bee Queen with astandard flint axes. It would take you forever, but you can. But just because you aren't required doesn't mean it's not a good idea. It seems like you are mostly doing this out of pride, which is commendable, but you also can't ignore that if you really are getting your behind beat this badly, you can probably do with going back and seeing what upgrade you can do instead of slamming your head into a brick wall.

Also CC specifically regens past its max hp when you leave the fight for a prolonged period.

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

To Klei’s credit: At least unlocking the glass swords are a manditory requirement (you set up the alters and learn to craft them) but if you happen to rush the CC activation, you’ll end up locked out of having access to those swords too.

they aren't a requirement for any part of the process. Like Thulecite armor, it is nice but it isn't required.

28 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Nothing leading up to CC suggested I would even need a weathering pain, or long range melee items. Phase 1 & Phase 2 didn’t suggest I would need them, and I wouldn’t even know people use the weather pain to smash the sleepy night night crystals had it not been for watching a boss fight video of someone fighting it.

I mean you could also just... wait. You probably also saw the crystals break at some point, so you can just stand at a distance and dodge CC's attacks until they go away. Like the previous example, it's nice to have but not required.

31 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

the entire point of this thread isn’t to ask for heavy nerfs to Wolfgang, it’s to ask why bosses can not be better balanced for 1-2 players because 3 or more as intended… we’d be done with him by now.

Because they are balanced for 1 person, at least the most recent ones are. If this was say Bee Queen, I could see your point a lot more as the boss was mostly designed around the idea of multiple people, meaning solo peeps had to be creative ways to beat her. However, CC was made with a single player in mind. That includes the mechanics, the max hp, the drops. It all points to be designed with one person in mind. Of course, you still can fight with multiple people, but it was focused more on the individual instead of the collective.

I will say, it could be interesting if bosses got some more mechanics if there was more players and some things could be scaled using the player count like the amount of healing the fuelweaver gets. However simply making a boss have more or less hp doesn't make the fight any more or less difficult. You might be able to kill it faster, but that doesn't really matter if you get impaled on ancient guardian's horn. It also doesn't help with making multiple people beating on the same enemy more fair. You can now theoretically use the same amount of resources linearly, but your still just slapping a boss for several minutes while they either can't do much against 6 targets, or just makes the entire process prolonged by the entire process being done 6 times at once. Regardless of how other games have done it, many agree it wouldn't be that great for a game like DST. 

[Gi-Go]

i am too lazy to read anything. woflgang good. mike silly. bosses work. nothing changed. the end. 

[hyoton123]

At least this thread is now giving a good argument against mandatory boss health scaling.

[YouKnowWho142]

I really don't even get what the argument is supposed to be anymore. Wolfgang is too op since he's as strong as 2 players and needs to be changed to be less good at the only thing he does, but then you can't beat the boss even as the character you whine about being too op? And that's ignoring the fact that like half the cast can rival or even surpass Wolfgang's dps now.

This entire thread is so incoherent and honestly moreso hurts the players who want boss scaling more than it helps them

[Dragonboooorn]

14 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I really don't even get what the argument is supposed to be anymore. Wolfgang is too op since he's as strong as 2 players and needs to be changed to be less good at the only thing he does, but then you can't beat the boss even as the character you whine about being too op? And that's ignoring the fact that like half the cast can rival or even surpass Wolfgang's dps now.

This entire thread is so incoherent and honestly moreso hurts the players who want boss scaling more than it helps them

Yeah, OPs logic is beyond flawed. Wolfgang deals 2x damage to boss, making said boss easier and faster to kill? Lets buff bosses so Wolfgang will have to be on pair with non-combat character. I dont get this logic

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Yeah, OPs logic is beyond flawed. Wolfgang deals 2x damage to boss, making said boss easier and faster to kill? Lets buff bosses so Wolfgang will have to be on pair with non-combat character. I dont get this logic

1-2 players nerf boss, 3-4 players (Nintendo Switches max By the way..) leave as it is, 5 or more players, Bosses need to scale upward so they aren’t blink and it’s over events.

Edited Tuesday at 12:45 AM by Mike23Ua

[YouKnowWho142]

59 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

1-2 players nerf boss, 3-4 players (Nintendo Switches max By the way..) leave as it is, 5 or more players, Bosses need to scale upward so they aren’t blink and it’s over events.

I'm playing solo and it still feels like a lot of these bosses are dying too fast. I play with a friend and most bosses die extremely quickly. Anything past 2 players kills even tankier bosses in under 2-3 minutes, which is not even a boss at that point. I literally just killed celestial champion solo myself as a 1x damage character and the fight took about 10 minutes, every additional player can essentially half that time over and over again.

I really hate to say it but most of your complaints genuinely sound like you're blaming everyone and everything but yourself for playing poorly. DST is not a super hard game but it does take a lot of time to get better, you just need to be patient and learn. Celestial champion is generally one of the most fair fights in the game.

[Mike23Ua]

27 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I'm playing solo and it still feels like a lot of these bosses are dying too fast. I play with a friend and most bosses die extremely quickly. Anything past 2 players kills even tankier bosses in under 2-3 minutes, which is not even a boss at that point. I literally just killed celestial champion solo myself as a 1x damage character and the fight took about 10 minutes, every additional player can essentially half that time over and over again.

I really hate to say it but most of your complaints genuinely sound like you're blaming everyone and everything but yourself for playing poorly. DST is not a super hard game but it does take a lot of time to get better, you just need to be patient and learn. Celestial champion is generally one of the most fair fights in the game.

The disconnect here is what items are you carrying in your inventory during this fight?

Me and my friend had about 6 Perogi each, 6 battle helms, 2 commander helms, a walking cane and 3 glass cutter swords each.

Your likely using something like “Thelucite Crown, Yellow Amulets, Bone Armor, things me and my friend did not have.. I think what’s important to note here is how easy it was to reach CC and be stuck with forever full moon cycles until managing to actually kill it. We had highly basic items to fight this thing with because the game allpws you to reach him with highly basic items….

The fact that Twitch videos show people using “Ruins Gear” is only a Megabaser or a highly experienced player PoV… Im explaining the Casual/Intermediate level experience & (hopefully) how it can be improved to be better.

Edited Tuesday at 02:20 AM by Mike23Ua

[YouKnowWho142]

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The disconnect here is what items are you carrying in your inventory during this fight?

Me and my friend had about 6 Perogi each, 6 battle helms, 2 commander helms, a walking cane and 3 glass cutter swords each.

Your likely using something like “Thelucite Crown, Yellow Amulets, Bone Armor, things me and my friend did not have.. I think what’s important to note here is how easy it was to reach CC and be stuck with forever full moon cycles until managing to actually kill it. We had highly basic items to fight this thing with because the game allpws you to reach him with highly basic items….

The fact that Twitch videos show people using “Ruins Gear” is only a Megabaser or a highly experienced player PoV… Im explaining the Casual/Intermediate level experience & (hopefully) how it can be improved to be better.

you should have ruins level gear before cc, you're required to go there for the star caller's to get the iridescent gem and you need the gems to start crab king...

Not that it matters, the fight requires as little as a few football helmets, a ham bat, and some healing items, so you and your friends seemed more than prepared. At which point, it seems how you fought it was the problem. Celestial champion doesn't have any weird gimmicks unlike a lot of other bosses, it is essentially just raw stats and predictable movements. You don't need weather panes, or lazy explorer, or heat, or walls, or anything, all cc needs is skill, patience, and the correct approach.

[hyoton123]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The disconnect here is what items are you carrying in your inventory during this fight?

Me and my friend had about

CC phase 3 doesn't do anything particularly unpredictable or aggressive. You can run off and pop into a tent or lean-to after whacking it with a ham bat and 80% armor. It doesn't heal that fast and 15 uses at 200 hp each is a crazy amount of nonspoiling healing. This is speaking from personal experience.

 

This is also speaking from personal experience: I prefer gunpowder.