Are "black health"/booster shot mechanics even a thing that adds a lot to the game? I think they are outdated and discouraging to new players

[FreyaMaluk]

I guess I need to add a disclaimer cuz TLTR I guess. I know how to survive in DST, this is not coming from a new person to the game. It is about my interactions observing BRAND NEW PLAYERS play the game. PLAYING BLINDLY.

I think dying for newbies is already hard enough to deal with. Veteran players don't consider how step the learning curve for this game is for absolute new players. A totally new player to the game (not me, I have been around for a while) and they are so overwhelmed by so many things that having him deal with also booster shots to punish their learning mistakes is just such a chore and just adds frustration to the learning curve and eventually decreases motivation to keep learning and playing the game altogether. 

I am aware you can customize settings to ignore the health penalty after death but most people won't know what to do to change it and it is not possible to even consider it in most public servers. Maybe it would be a wise idea to simply remove this altogether or rework it in a way that allows for a diversity of ingredients. 

____

Suggestions of the discussion TLDR:

- adding them as default in the crafting tab

- considering other ingredients to replace rot like red caps, berries or honey

- adding more recipes to restore it

- adding extra effects to cooked recipes to boost it.

- considering restoring it over time as days progress ingame

- make starting autumn with pieces of rot laying around. 

Edited June 10, 2025 by FreyaMaluk

[FluffyBun]

DS's game design is as follows:

You are down

The game kicks you

Your belly hurts

The game beats you up, grinds your hand to dust, skewers your leg, force-feeds you ipecac, etc.

You are still in the game, but are beaten to a pulp.

The game crucifies you

You die.

If you are a new player, or are playing with one, try actually taking it into account with regards to your gameplay. Don't rush the ruins too fast, build a stronger base, ignore bosses, stock up on boosters, stock up on light bulbs for rot, etc.

Edited June 3, 2025 by FluffyBun

[Bumber64]

It only happens with the postern and telltale heart. It's annoying, but becomes completely irrelevant once you gain access to the better revival options.

There's probably a point to preventing players from killing themselves to restore their other stats.

[FreyaMaluk]

20 minutes ago, FluffyBun said:

DS's game design is as follows:

You are down

The game kicks you

Your belly hurts

The game beats you up, grinds your hand to dust, skewers your leg, force-feeds you ipecac, etc.

You are still in the game, but are beaten to a pulp.

The game crucifies you

You die.

If you are a new player, or are playing with one, try actually taking it into account with regards to your gameplay. Don't rush the ruins too fast, build a stronger base, ignore bosses, stock up on boosters, stock up on light bulbs for rot, etc.

ik how to survive in the game. this is not about me. If you would have taken a bit of time to actually read my post, you would have realized this is about experiencing a new player progress in the game. I just find this mechanic outdated and kinda counterproductive, that is it.

9 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It only happens with the postern and telltale heart. It's annoying, but becomes completely irrelevant once you gain access to the better revival options.

There's probably a point to preventing players from killing themselves to restore their other stats.

that is my point altogether. It is annoying adds nothing really to make the game more fun or engaging. It is just a super annoying mechanic to punish progress specially for new players. that is my whole point

Edited June 3, 2025 by FreyaMaluk

[FluffyBun]

Helping new players is a skill too.

One that you obviously do not have in spades, which the game punishes you for.

This experience just shows that no matter how good you are at solo play, the game can still knife you in the back.

If you think of it as a convoluted escort mission, you will understand it better. It's a bit like having a child vs living single. Think of your partner as a child your character gave birth to in-game, and it will make a lot more sense.

Or you can just rollback, rollback is fine.

Edited June 3, 2025 by FluffyBun

[FreyaMaluk]

14 minutes ago, FluffyBun said:

Helping new players is a skill too.

One that you obviously do not have in spades, which the game punishes you for.

This experience just shows that no matter how good you are at solo play, the game can still knife you in the back.

If you think of it as a convoluted escort mission, you will understand it better.

Again, I understand the mechanics behind it. I find it is simply pointless and annoying and can make new players feel discouraged to keep playing the game altogether and gives the impression they cannot take some little risks on their own because after dying, they need to be babysitted constantly. That is no fun for anyone involved. I am super cooperative in my games and really helpful to help new players but that is not necessarily how most players are. If that was changed, new players can learn to recover a bit better on their own.

And no.. I don't think recommending rollback is a good strategy for overall learning of the game unless it is situation you cannot really recover from. Also it is not an option always available on public servers

Edited June 3, 2025 by FreyaMaluk

[FluffyBun]

Funnily enough, this was the biggest complaint about original DS.

Do you remember when you were new? The game never let you recover.

Edited June 3, 2025 by FluffyBun

[FreyaMaluk]

1 minute ago, FluffyBun said:

Funnily enough, this was the biggest complaint about original DS.

Do you remember when you were new? The game never let you recover.

DS is not really the topic here. 2 different beasts and I would prefer if we stay on topic

[FluffyBun]

7 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

DS is not really the topic here. 2 different beasts and I would prefer if we stay on topic

Is it dated? It depends on whether we believe that the original design philosophy has carried over to the multiplayer version. Assuming it to be true, then the "discouragement" is actually a feature.

I mean, personally, I would make boosters a 4-use because of how annoying it is to get lots of rot, but I won't remove HP penalty. Making the player run around for stingers and nitre is fun. Producing 10 rot is like watching paint dry, unless Toadstool is abused, but then again...

Edited June 3, 2025 by FluffyBun

[Mike23Ua]

So uhh there’s actually a world toggle option to disable it if you want “easy mode”

but by disabling it you also remove the need to ever use booster shots.

[Crazy Gorilla]

Touchstones give you 2 free revives with no health setback

[Milordo]

No, absolutely not. Never in my 50+ blind people, while learning and dying to the game, had a problem with this. One had a burst of rage when he discovered the existence of booster shots. He calm down, took a pause from the game and a week later re-started. He was shocked and realized how dumb he was by simply playing it more. 

Also Freya, it has a BIG importance in gameplay, design and balance. Never and ever should be buffed the telltale heart, that's the whole point of the "law of equivalent exchange" in ds/dst.

[FreyaMaluk]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

So uhh there’s actually a world toggle option to disable it if you want “easy mode”

but by disabling it you also remove the need to ever use booster shots.

 

2 hours ago, Crazy Gorilla said:

Touchstones give you 2 free revives with no health setback

I am aware of those. I think if you read the post you would have seen that. This is not about.. "game too hard, pls nerf" it is about thinking of ways that some mechanics might be outdated to promote learning and motivate people to keep on playing

 

1 hour ago, Milordo said:

No, absolutely not. Never in my 50+ blind people, while learning and dying to the game, had a problem with this. One had a burst of rage when he discovered the existence of booster shots. He calm down, took a pause from the game and a week later re-started. He was shocked and realized how dumb he was by simply playing it more. 

Also Freya, it has a BIG importance in gameplay, design and balance. Never and ever should be buffed the telltale heart, that's the whole point of the "law of equivalent exchange" in ds/dst.

It is not per se a problem, I personally find it very tedious and counterproductive for new players specially in public servers which makes a lot of people that play the game, if you read my post you would see that.

it doesn't really have any relevant importance altogether after the initial face of learning the game. Obvs touch stones, amulets, effigies (for people that even care to craft them) are way more relevant later on.

I think "balance" is not a sword to throw at things that are simply counterproductive to make new people feel more motivated to learn by dying which is part of the game itself. The devs are def focusing more on fun and diverse ways of play and approach the Constant. This has been their focus for a while now

and the anecdote you described is a perfect example... it took composing themselves and time off to digest that. your friend came back, but maybe a lot people tried the game and simply never kept on trying because of that mechanic. It is a pretty annoying amd makes the game not fun nor encourages people to keep trying. it does literally the opposite. It creates fearful campers at the base, which is what happens most of the time in all public servers with new players. After touch stones, amulets and effigies this becomes absolutely obsolete. 

as I said before, ik how to modify my own game to disable it if I want. No issues there. I was just thinking if it deserves a discussion to see if this is a mechanic that is worth keeping considering what brings to the table, which in my opinion, it is not that much. DST is changing in all sorts of ways and that is the beauty of it. A lot of things will keep improving overtime.

Edited June 3, 2025 by FreyaMaluk

[nicolas103]

It is extremely outdated, and a very unfun mechanic, but i actually feel like its more the fact that theres really the only one way to get and recover black health.(without changing characters)

 

Unfortunately its also a slippery slop for newbies where they just die a bunch getting the resources for 1 shot and lose even more health, and either just wait to die again with minimal hp, or stay afk as a ghost waiting for the rot, or a player to help, or leave. None of these situations are fun for anyone.

 

I do still feel it can be expanded on tho with more ways to be dealt with, and obtained as i havent died in way too long, and usually boat related bugs were the only way i'd get black health so it has never been relevant in almost every single world i've played.

Saying that tho if it was removed i genuinely wouldnt care, or realize it was gone.

Edited June 3, 2025 by nicolas103
Word

[FreyaMaluk]

4 minutes ago, nicolas103 said:

Saying that tho if it was removed i genuinely wouldnt care, or realize it was gone.

this is precisely my point. Vets players wouldn't even notice because they know what to do but it would make a huge difference for learning the game from scratch for new players

5 minutes ago, nicolas103 said:

Unfortunately its a slippery slop for newbies where they just die a bunch getting the resources for 1 shot and lose even more health, and either just wait to die again with minimal hp, or stay afk as a ghost waiting for the rot, or a player to help, or leave. None of these situations are fun for anyone.

having that mechanic it def encourages new players to feel dependent of old players or to camp draining sanity until rot is available and others help... if they want to... This just looks like such a backwards concept for running a game where death is part of the game

Edited June 3, 2025 by FreyaMaluk

[Well-met]

if anything it's not used enough.

Especially now that we lost one of the ways in the beta

[AliceShiki]

On one hand, I do think the loss of max HP does create some tension that can more easily lead to a party wipe in the earlier stages of the game, before you can get more rot and stuff, so it doesn't feel like a bad mechanic.

On the other hand... It does feel kinda pointless once rot becomes more plentiful, and the play pattern when you have 25% HP left of running from any and every mob that appears near you isn't exactly fun.

... Overall, I honestly don't know how I feel about the mechanic. I'd say it does add some level of tension to the game (Which is usually a good thing to me), but OTOH I can understand how it can feel like something that pushes newbies away, especially if said newbies are playing on pubs instead of playing with friends.

Interesting discussion, I guess. I don't have any clear thoughts on it, but I think OP does have a valid point~

[FreyaMaluk]

Just now, AliceShiki said:

On one hand, I do think the loss of max HP does create some tension that can more easily lead to a party wipe in the earlier stages of the game, before you can get more rot and stuff, so it doesn't feel like a bad mechanic.

On the other hand... It does feel kinda pointless once rot becomes more plentiful, and the play pattern when you have 25% HP left of running from any and every mob that appears near you isn't exactly fun.

... Overall, I honestly don't know how I feel about the mechanic. I'd say it does add some level of tension to the game (Which is usually a good thing to me), but OTOH I can understand how it can feel like something that pushes newbies away, especially if said newbies are playing on pubs instead of playing with friends.

Interesting discussion, I guess. I don't have any clear thoughts on it, but I think OP does have a valid point~

thanks! I appreciate you taking an unbiased look and realizing you have conflicting feelings. That is def how I personally feel about it since I never really use those unless I am playing with newbies. To add to the utilization of rot, I think rot is such a useful item that it will be very hard not to at least being used for fertilization. Keeping booster shots to utilize rot might not necessarily be a big enough justification in my book since by that point amulets will indeed be the norm.

[Mike23Ua]

You also have to keep in mind that regardless of Tencent Acquisition DST still has to remain DST, they can’t just suddenly get a wild hair up their ass to casualize everything…..

I mean DST is currently listed as like # 7 of the hardest and most unforgiving RogueLites available on Xbox. It even says it on the title screen “Uncompromising Survival Game”
it’s not supposed to be a casuals game, and it’s not meant to appeal to everyone.

[FreyaMaluk]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You also have to keep in mind that regardless of Tencent Acquisition DST still has to remain DST, they can’t just suddenly get a wild hair up their ass to casualize everything…..

I mean DST is currently listed as like # 7 of the hardest and most unforgiving RogueLites available on Xbox. It even says it on the title screen “Uncompromising Survival Game”
it’s not supposed to be a casuals game, and it’s not meant to appeal to everyone.

that is a very elitist way to look at the game. removing an annoying mechanic is not gonna make the game immediately super easy, it is gonna encourage more people to play it, experience while dying and having fun while learning hard lessons instead of quitting altogether

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, FreyaMaluk said:

that is a very elitist way to look at the game. removing an annoying mechanic is not gonna make the game immediately super easy, it is gonna encourage more people to play it, experience while dying and having fun while learning hard lessons instead of quitting altogether

Maybe, but by removing it you strip away some of the fun more experienced players get to have of helping newbies. 

Newbies die ALOT, so maybe they can not fight bees to obtain stingers, but the more experienced player can go get them and heal their Buddy back up to good health.

Thats why the game is called an Uncompromising Survival Game.

And like I said in my first post: there’s still an option to turn it off if it isn’t your cup of tea.

[FreyaMaluk]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Maybe, but by removing it you strip away some of the fun more experienced players get to have of helping newbies. 

Newbies die ALOT, so maybe they can not fight bees to obtain stingers, but the more experienced player can go get them and heal their Buddy back up to good health.

Thats why the game is called an Uncompromising Survival Game.

And like I said in my first post: there’s still an option to turn it off if it isn’t your cup of tea.

that maybe creates on one side hero complexes and on the other side, depending newbies. Both not great options in my opinion, but I guess we can agree to disagree. I prefer the game be open for new people to feel like they can make mistakes, die, stand on their own without feeling like they need to be rescued every time, keep learning and having fun

Edited June 3, 2025 by FreyaMaluk

[Evelo]

I'd be cool with other methods of recovering it. The booster shot being the only one is annoying. The mechanic itself is underutilized I think. Could be neat to have it be used while a boss is alive, granting incentive to kill it so your HP isn't lowered while it is alive. But hey, I just want more incentive and difficulty with the game.

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said:

It is not per se a problem, I personally find it very tedious and counterproductive for new players specially in public servers which makes a lot of people that play the game, if you read my post you would see that.

it doesn't really have any relevant importance altogether after the initial face of learning the game. Obvs touch stones, amulets, effigies (for people that even care to craft them) are way more relevant later on.

I think "balance" is not a sword to throw at things that are simply counterproductive to make new people feel more motivated to learn by dying which is part of the game itself. The devs are def focusing more on fun and diverse ways of play and approach the Constant. This has been their focus for a while now

and the anecdote you described is a perfect example... it took composing themselves and time off to digest that. your friend came back, but maybe a lot people tried the game and simply never kept on trying because of that mechanic. It is a pretty annoying amd makes the game not fun nor encourages people to keep trying. it does literally the opposite. It creates fearful campers at the base, which is what happens most of the time in all public servers with new players. After touch stones, amulets and effigies this becomes absolutely obsolete. 

as I said before, ik how to modify my own game to disable it if I want. No issues there. I was just thinking if it deserves a discussion to see if this is a mechanic that is worth keeping considering what brings to the table, which in my opinion, it is not that much. DST is changing in all sorts of ways and that is the beauty of it. A lot of things will keep improving overtime.

I don't get it why you're presuming that I didn't read your post but okay...

One thing is improving, one thing is we proposing change or removing at random, parts of the game just because of our feelings or not following a reasonable objective base/argument. I don't know how to tell you or help you (but I'll try it in the conclusion) but you're very wrong unfortunately in all the discussion you're bringing. Since it seems to me, the more I'm reading your words, the more that you're not a new player but also not a very experienced one and you feel bad for what happened to your partner and want him to appreciate to this wonderful game that you fell in love (I'm guessing) and that's what have sparked you to making this post. Look, there will be nobody and I say nobody in all this forum and maybe in the world that understand more of this particular situation than me. If you *coff coff* ready carefully my post, I wrote 50+ people. 50+ people all blind, introduced by me, never gatekeep them. Never backseat them. Even always using tools and strategies that only they have discovered during their blind adventures. Just pure unfiltered vanilla experience for them, just as Klei intended. And let me tell you. If it wasn't for booster shoots, it would have been for hounds. If it wasn't for hounds, it would have been for Deerclops. If it wasn't for Deerclops, it would have been for frog rains, and depth worms, and the boat system, and so on, and on on on.... The strong down to earth lesson that I have learned from this game is = for some strange reason, it doesn't matter if the mechanic is perfectly good designed or horribly the worst designed ever, people will always and I say always, rage and tilt for something. I really don't know why but it happens to all of us, me and you included. It's literally "it is what it is". With how the nature of Don't Starve works, people will always subjectively found something that is "the worst thing ever". It is a very niche game and it's not for everybody and we must accept it. I hope I expressed myself clear on this because there isn't anything """counterproductive""", as you're spamming, with

in the crafting description or counterproductive in 

or finally counterproductive in the excellent very well done balance and design in giving you a choice by very easy revives with the telltale heart but costing -40 health, three cut grass, one spider gland, eight rots, two nitres and one stinger and punishing you with the "black heart" OR pushing the player into exploring more progressive reviving methods that simply revives you without more malus as the "black heart" but costing you high quality resources.  

Here a list of other mistakes you have wrote: 

Spoiler

1) Public servers are not a metric (not anymore thank god) to measure the game and how it needs to change. Klei uses their standard 1-6 people to balance it, unless you meant public server as a normal world but open. If you meant the true public servers with 24 open slots, constant restarts, constant randomness and griefing/trolling then...no. Just no. 2) Veterans would notice changes like this absolutely and break the game even more than it is now. 3) "fearful campers" will always happen in Don't Starve when you're new. If it is not this, it will be hounds, deerclops, ecc..... 4) Telltale hearts are not absolutely obsolete and instead remain pretty viable to all the game (thanks when you design your game well) because life giving amulets or meat effigies could run low and the team of players don't want to waste precious resources and opt for telltale hearts and so on....I could give you tons of examples.

 

With allllll being said, I can maybe found a breach to help your case on this. As @Well-met @Evelo @nicolas103 said this mechanic is instead very underutilized and it would help for your discussion to point out to balance the game by making more (reasonably) dangers that creates black health BUT also making more options to heal it. More characters powers that heal it. More items that heal it. Plants or animal drops that heal it and so on. I hope I cleared your mind on this  

Edited June 3, 2025 by Milordo

[Cheggf]

I've introduced about 8 friends to this game and not a single one of them has been annoyed by the booster shot mechanic. None of them have died so much that they ran out of touchstones, and ran out of life giving amulets, and used so many boosters that the health penalty was becoming difficult to clear. In fact, I don't even remember if I've ever given them a booster.

Boosters are not an outdated mechanic, it is to punish you for dying so that you learn from your deaths and are more cautious in the future. Your friend is clearly not being more cautious if he's dying so much that he's being annoyed by the booster mechanic, he's not learning. If he's struggling to learn I would suggest helping him along and explaining things to him, or even disabling the booster mechanic if it's getting in the way. But for the average player it's a good incentive to encourage them to learn from their mistakes.