Woodie can no longer use tree army on FW

[lowercase skye]

15 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Do you think it's fair to ask of every single player who wants to beat the FW to bow down to those elitists, install too many items and train against FW in a test world for 3 hours straight?

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If the question is "do you think it's fair for players to need to train against the boss in a test world for hours" then my answer is no, I think it's horribly unreasonable to expect that of anyone just to be able to defeat a video game boss consistently, and I will passionately defend that stance. But if the question is "do you think it's fair that the EVIL ELITISTS are trying to FORCE US to BOW DOWN TO THEM and their UNREPRESENTATIVE GAMEPLAY because of their INFLATED EGOS" then I start to nervously rub my shoulder and get embarrassed to agree with anything else that's being said about the fight.

[Hollow soul 3]

1 hour ago, lowercase skye said:

Can we... please stop talking about Fuelweaver in this particular manner? Fuelweaver is not an impossible "BS" fight only enjoyed by my incredibly mean view of what a "toxic" player looks like. Fuelweaver is a boss that is entirely possible and perhaps even becomes easy with enough practice: and the problem is that it's unreasonable to expect the majority of players to put in that amount of brute-force console-command practice in order to learn his every single intricacy. I personally have practiced in test worlds to the point of being able to do the bone cage dodge pretty consistently in phase 1, and am very capable of phase 2 so long as I've got all the necessary items, and I still don't like the fight or the fact that I had to do that in order to make one portion of it feel better, and I would still like the fight to get adjustments to make it feel more reasonable. All that responses like the ones above do is cleanly separate the argument into "people who are good at the fight (but like, derogatory)" and "normal people (group which only contains people of my particular playstyle and skill level)", and I don't think that is productive or useful at all. The argument should instead be between "people who find the fight fun" and "people who don't find the fight fun", because the goal to reach in my opinion is for the fight to be made fun for people who don't like it, while retaining that existing fun for people who already like it. For example an indicator whenever the Fuelweaver has his bone cage ready, and a visible range, would allow you to dodge it far easier, making that unintended interaction into something official that can be used to make the bone cage far less overwhelming, easing one of the biggest problems with the boss and making it easier for us to interact with this mechanic that a lot of people consider a great and exhilarating part of the fight.

I'd just really really like it if this could be treated as what it is: a subjectively enjoyable boss fight that a lot of people do or don't like for x or y reason. All that separating it into "the normal people" vs "the sweaty entitled tryhard toxic elitists" is make it harder for people like myself to engage, because my dislike for Fuelweaver is far outweighed by the fact that I don't want to implicitly agree with that perception of the situation.

For real, it's not dark souls. Dudes got like 4 moves. 

[Swiyss]

23 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

supposed to be beatable, but players find a way.

By finding a way, do you mean creating mods or abusing unintended features such as cheeses and glitches?

Because, if by "finding a way" you mean utilizing a very specific built-in game item that was purposefully design for it's intended feature, then I don't see that being any close to a player's idea.

And if you're talking about glitches, like using frozen moleworms to stop movement from enemies for example, then how can you declare that this would be the very single best way of confronting him? Like you despise the developers way of progressing into the game. And if you don't disagree with their way of making their own game, then you shouldn't be complaining about it being too difficult, which is what the fight actually is instead of what you said. The fight is not designed to be impossible to beat.

31 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

It's a fact that the majority of FW defenders are literal youtubers and speedrunners, aka extreme outliers whose opinion reflects a negligible minority of the game. I am the overwhelming majority of players, who despise or avoid FW. That same first category tends to enjoy specific glitches and exploits like voidwalking or itemswapping to reset attack timers that any and all comment sections on youtube will disapprove of since they're made of normal players.

There is no perception there, there is simply the truth. That negligible minority does not deserve to be bowed down to, they do not have the right to gatekeep and dictate what the game should be to 99.9% of the playerbase. Nothing toxic in refusing to bow down to an extreme minority of people who dedicate their lives to the game and have attached their ego to that fact, there is no rational argument as to why their investment should be a baseline for balance. It all boils down to a simple question: Should the game be fun for 99.9% of players, or a negligible "elite" hyper-minority of speedrunners and youtubers with extremely warped views on balance after training for hours using cheats/mods to get better in ways that never happen during an actual playthrough? Do you think it's fair to ask of every single player who wants to beat the FW to bow down to those elitists, install too many items and train against FW in a test world for 3 hours straight? Their totalitarian demands of needing to reach their investment to be allowed to have fun with the late game stuff is the most toxic thing I can imagine. "Be as good as someone who spent way too much time on this game or you do not deserve to enjoy the content"

Once again, if you're having a friendly chess competition full of amateurs, would Magnus Carlsen be justified to come in uninvited, force you all to duel him, then berate you for losing to him and tell you to git gud? Having practiced more does not make someone right or their opinions deserve any respect they don't give back.

I don't want to hop into assumptions here, but it seems like you just don't like the difficult originality of this fight. And that's totally okay. Nothing will be changed because that's not the intention of design.

If the purpose is for the fight to be annoying, unfair and hard at it's core, than this idea has succeeded. And having regular players like you dislike the pure nature of this encounter is the living proof why this is a great implementation and shouldn't be touched or reanalyzed into a complete different thing just for accommodation of a "majority" like you mentioned and like it happened with crab king, whom turned into a worse version of who he once was in my honest opinion.

Here's a quick video for you from a quick search on youtube :

 

[Maxil20]

5 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

For example an indicator whenever the Fuelweaver has his bone cage ready, and a visible range, would allow you to dodge it far easier, making that unintended interaction into something official that can be used to make the bone cage far less overwhelming, easing one of the biggest problems with the boss and making it easier for us to interact with this mechanic that a lot of people consider a great and exhilarating part of the fight.

The thing I find particularly wild is a Lot of people who do like fighting the weaver support things like this. They love fighting the boss, and while they do want to keep the fight's intrinsic difficulty in some aspects, they also don't want it to be a fight where you need to spend hours to get reliable mental knowledge to actually fight and beat the boss. Tells like this would hardly impact the fight for them, because they already have the mental knowledge of how to reliably dodge the cage, but would be a massive boon to the players who are not familiar with weaver's mechanics (which a lot of people are not).

It makes me sad a good chunk of people here have the mental image that only the real players like weaver and Hate anyone and everyone else that doesn't like the boss/wants it changed. I myself find weaver alright other than the X and Y reasons being an easier way to gauge the cage and targeting improvements (the latter being I wish weaver was much harder to target with a shield up so it's easier for players to target/attack the woven shadows without accidentally hitting the unhittable boss).

[AliceShiki]

Tbh, I think Fuelweaver is the kind of boss that would ideally receive a nerf with an in-game way to turn the nerf off.

Like... It's a late-game boss. The vast majority of players won't ever know Fuelweaver exists, never mind how to fight it... And among those players, plenty will eventually end up learning how to beat Fuelweaver, because only the heavily enfranchised players even reach it in the first place... And well, there is nothing wrong with making a hard fight when you know only the heavily enfranchised players will reach it anyways.

But... Fuelweaver locks content behind it, so it being a source of frustration for many players is kinda bad, so... Dunno, I think it would be nice if a new item was added, maybe something that spawns in Fuelweaver Arena, and that is like... If you use this item in Fuelweaver, you get the unnerfed version, otherwise, you get the nerfed version. And both give the exact same rewards, so old Fuelweaver would be there just to keep the fight as is for the people who like it.

Dunno, that's how it feels for me. Feels like it would be a nice compromise... Add a nerfed version of the boss, but also add a way to fight the unnerfed one... Pretty sure a good amount of people asked for something like this to be done with Crab King, and it would be nice if it was done for AFW.

4 hours ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

For real, it's not dark souls. Dudes got like 4 moves. 

Most Dark Souls bosses have less moves than that... Plenty of bosses, including some hard bosses, only have a single move, in fact.

Bosses with multiple moves, different phases and whatever is something that started with Bloodborne (so you can also find it in Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring)... But Dark Souls? Dark Souls has very simple bosses.

[Hollow soul 3]

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

Tbh, I think Fuelweaver is the kind of boss that would ideally receive a nerf with an in-game way to turn the nerf off.

Like... It's a late-game boss. The vast majority of players won't ever know Fuelweaver exists, never mind how to fight it... And among those players, plenty will eventually end up learning how to beat Fuelweaver, because only the heavily enfranchised players even reach it in the first place... And well, there is nothing wrong with making a hard fight when you know only the heavily enfranchised players will reach it anyways.

But... Fuelweaver locks content behind it, so it being a source of frustration for many players is kinda bad, so... Dunno, I think it would be nice if a new item was added, maybe something that spawns in Fuelweaver Arena, and that is like... If you use this item in Fuelweaver, you get the unnerfed version, otherwise, you get the nerfed version. And both give the exact same rewards, so old Fuelweaver would be there just to keep the fight as is for the people who like it.

Dunno, that's how it feels for me. Feels like it would be a nice compromise... Add a nerfed version of the boss, but also add a way to fight the unnerfed one... Pretty sure a good amount of people asked for something like this to be done with Crab King, and it would be nice if it was done for AFW.

Most Dark Souls bosses have less moves than that... Plenty of bosses, including some hard bosses, only have a single move, in fact.

Bosses with multiple moves, different phases and whatever is something that started with Bloodborne (so you can also find it in Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring)... But Dark Souls? Dark Souls has very simple bosses.

I was referring to the trilogy. I haven't played demon souls, so I didn't want to say the souls series. All that's to say is that it's not a complicated fight. If you're playing solo, auto pause makes the fight easy as long as you brought the right gear. If you're playing with others, the flights only rough because of the healing and shield.

By the time you get to him, you have all the skills you need. Some of the shadow pieces are harder to kite, ancient guardian will drop you faster if you mess up, you've fought worse minions with been queen. Even though he locks you up, he doesn't avoid hits like the pig.

If you're just going for unlocks, you can also skip over him to grab rift gear and mess with the damage and sanity monsters in the world settings. Yeah, he'll still possess you, but as long as you get off a shot with the weather pain before your controls lock he won't heal through it. You'll take a hit, but the football helmet and healing food will carry you. Start with some gunpowder too because why not. I mean even drop a bunch of bees (not all at once, a bundle wrap at a time) to ping damage and steal agro. It's only as difficult as you want it to be.

[Dwight34]

9 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If the question is "do you think it's fair for players to need to train against the boss in a test world for hours" then my answer is no, I think it's horribly unreasonable to expect that of anyone just to be able to defeat a video game boss consistently, and I will passionately defend that stance. But if the question is "do you think it's fair that the EVIL ELITISTS are trying to FORCE US to BOW DOWN TO THEM and their UNREPRESENTATIVE GAMEPLAY because of their INFLATED EGOS" then I start to nervously rub my shoulder and get embarrassed to agree with anything else that's being said about the fight.

All I cited is the truth, if you can't handle it that's an issue on your part. You can't get mad at the smell if you are not courageous enough to tell the dog-owner to not let his dog defecate everywhere. I'm not describing some boogeyman, I'm describing exactly how they think, how they act, what their mentality is. The only reason you have trouble accepting those facts is because you are afraid of the echo chamber ostracizing you.

8 hours ago, astareus said:

If the purpose is for the fight to be annoying, unfair and hard at it's core, than this idea has succeeded. And having regular players like you dislike the pure nature of this encounter is the living proof why this is a great implementation and shouldn't be touched or reanalyzed into a complete different thing just for accommodation of a "majority"

This post confirms every single thing I just said. "The fight is unfair, too hard, annoying, and 99% of players hate it? GOOD!!!". They even have the balls to deny what the majority think from their own echo chamber where you'll find more people with youtube channels or speedruns careers than normal players (I'd say real players, but they get VERY touchy when you call them what they are, proving it's all about ego, like when I called out that their ways of experimenting bosses by using mods and test worlds is unnatural). I'm a very experienced player in Zomboid, PrivateLime is still way more than me, but I am actually capable of empathy and humble enough to not act like the game should be balanced around ME ME ME ME.

3 hours ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

If you're playing solo, auto pause makes the fight easy as long as you brought the right gear.

It definitely helps, but no, the fight is not at all easy for an average player even with auto-pause, you have a skewed view after too much training.

4 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

And well, there is nothing wrong with making a hard fight when you know only the heavily enfranchised players will reach it anyways

CC is much harder to reach and he's still way easier to fight than FW. They are equivalents of each other in progression, so we have 2 options, either make CC impossibly unfair to validate 0.1% of players with an ego, or make FW fair so that 99.9% of players are happy, I know my choice.

[DegenerateFurry]

5 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

The thing I find particularly wild is a Lot of people who do like fighting the weaver support things like this. They love fighting the boss, and while they do want to keep the fight's intrinsic difficulty in some aspects, they also don't want it to be a fight where you need to spend hours to get reliable mental knowledge to actually fight and beat the boss. Tells like this would hardly impact the fight for them, because they already have the mental knowledge of how to reliably dodge the cage, but would be a massive boon to the players who are not familiar with weaver's mechanics (which a lot of people are not).

If this is true, why is it that Fuelweaver's most dedicated apologists vocally oppose things like attack range indicators when I suggest them? Also, I think the more apt phrasing would be "most players are not", because most players don't spend hours practicing a single boss ever. Like, most players - big shocker - just play the game, which means they encounter Fuelweaver once a playthrough if that.

[AliceShiki]

3 hours ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

I was referring to the trilogy. I haven't played demon souls, so I didn't want to say the souls series.

If you're referring to the trilogy of Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring, then sure, but I dunno why you'd call that a trilogy.

I was talking about Dark Souls with how most bosses have less than 4 moves though. Because they really don't do much. Bosses of Demon Souls and Dark Souls 2 are also fairly simple. Things only started to change with Bloodborne.

[Guille6785]

10 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

I didn't say it's impossible, rather it was designed to be impossible. It's a common occurrence for devs to create meme difficulties that are not supposed to be beatable, but players find a way.

It's a fact that the majority of FW defenders are literal youtubers and speedrunners, aka extreme outliers whose opinion reflects a negligible minority of the game. I am the overwhelming majority of players, who despise or avoid FW. That same first category tends to enjoy specific glitches and exploits like voidwalking or itemswapping to reset attack timers that any and all comment sections on youtube will disapprove of since they're made of normal players.

There is no perception there, there is simply the truth. That negligible minority does not deserve to be bowed down to, they do not have the right to gatekeep and dictate what the game should be to 99.9% of the playerbase. Nothing toxic in refusing to bow down to an extreme minority of people who dedicate their lives to the game and have attached their ego to that fact, there is no rational argument as to why their investment should be a baseline for balance. It all boils down to a simple question: Should the game be fun for 99.9% of players, or a negligible "elite" hyper-minority of speedrunners and youtubers with extremely warped views on balance after training for hours using cheats/mods to get better in ways that never happen during an actual playthrough? Do you think it's fair to ask of every single player who wants to beat the FW to bow down to those elitists, install too many items and train against FW in a test world for 3 hours straight? Their totalitarian demands of needing to reach their investment to be allowed to have fun with the late game stuff is the most toxic thing I can imagine. "Be as good as someone who spent way too much time on this game or you do not deserve to enjoy the content"

Once again, if you're having a friendly chess competition full of amateurs, would Magnus Carlsen be justified to come in uninvited, force you all to duel him, then berate you for losing to him and tell you to git gud? Having practiced more does not make someone right or their opinions deserve any respect they don't give back.

dude, breathe

P.S. "Fuelweaver was supposed to be impossible to be solo" wasn't a thing, it was a myth made up by Edgy Rick and then mindlessly parroted by OrangE, Klei never said this

[DegenerateFurry]

9 hours ago, astareus said:

By finding a way, do you mean creating mods or abusing unintended features such as cheeses and glitches?

Because, if by "finding a way" you mean utilizing a very specific built-in game item that was purposefully design for it's intended feature, then I don't see that being any close to a player's idea.

And if you're talking about glitches, like using frozen moleworms to stop movement from enemies for example, then how can you declare that this would be the very single best way of confronting him? Like you despise the developers way of progressing into the game. And if you don't disagree with their way of making their own game, then you shouldn't be complaining about it being too difficult, which is what the fight actually is instead of what you said. The fight is not designed to be impossible to beat.

You know what's "finding a way"? Bone cage dodge, whether it's the method where you run out of its range or the one where you abuse it not forming properly on the edges. All the speedrunners love that and abuse it to death and tell you to do it if you complain about the fight. Are you gonna say they hate the way the devs designed Fuelweaver? Because they don't, otherwise defending him wouldn't be their top priority on this forum.

I do hate the way Fuelweaver is designed. And, let me quote you to explain why:

9 hours ago, astareus said:

If the purpose is for the fight to be annoying, unfair and hard at it's core, than this idea has succeeded.

Because it's unfair and annoying. It's also tedious and very fiddly due to all the inventory management it requires.

9 hours ago, astareus said:

And having regular players like you dislike the pure nature of this encounter is the living proof why this is a great implementation and shouldn't be touched or reanalyzed into a complete different thing just for accommodation of a "majority" like you mentioned and like it happened with crab king, whom turned into a worse version of who he once was in my honest opinion.

My recent poll on the matter indicates that Crab King's rework is generally well-received: 59.5% of players actually like current Crab King, 23.4% have no strong opinion or think it's of average quality, 12.77% dislike it, and a mere 4.26% think it's actually worse than the original. This means that almost 83% of players are at least okay with current Crab King.

So, nah, it is a majority that liked Crab King's changes, quite a significant one, and I bet a majority would like Fuelweaver more if he got the same treatment. But then, you're stating plainly here that not only do you not care what's best for the majority of people, you actually think it's good game design if the fight is unenjoyable for most players. If this isn't elitism, I don't know what is.

5 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Tbh, I think Fuelweaver is the kind of boss that would ideally receive a nerf with an in-game way to turn the nerf off.

Like... It's a late-game boss. The vast majority of players won't ever know Fuelweaver exists, never mind how to fight it... And among those players, plenty will eventually end up learning how to beat Fuelweaver, because only the heavily enfranchised players even reach it in the first place... And well, there is nothing wrong with making a hard fight when you know only the heavily enfranchised players will reach it anyways.

But... Fuelweaver locks content behind it, so it being a source of frustration for many players is kinda bad, so... Dunno, I think it would be nice if a new item was added, maybe something that spawns in Fuelweaver Arena, and that is like... If you use this item in Fuelweaver, you get the unnerfed version, otherwise, you get the nerfed version. And both give the exact same rewards, so old Fuelweaver would be there just to keep the fight as is for the people who like it.

Dunno, that's how it feels for me. Feels like it would be a nice compromise... Add a nerfed version of the boss, but also add a way to fight the unnerfed one... Pretty sure a good amount of people asked for something like this to be done with Crab King, and it would be nice if it was done for AFW.

I've suggested exactly this before, and I think it's definitely the best way Klei could handle a full rework of Fuelweaver a la the very popular Crab King rework. Unfortunately, Fuelweaver's defenders accept no compromise.

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

the one where you abuse it not forming properly on the edges

ngl it's kind of funny to see you repeating things that you could verify aren't true in 5 minutes by just opening the game, but this was removed in 2019

26 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

If this is true, why is it that Fuelweaver's most dedicated apologists vocally oppose things like attack range indicators when I suggest them?

dog, I literally said on the other thread last week that I fully support the bone cage having a range indicator and that I'd even go as far as to have its outer range reduced a little bit, you already argue tremendously in bad faith as is but resorting to straight up lying just to validate that you're being persecuted in some way is just sad

[DegenerateFurry]

16 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

ngl it's kind of funny to see you repeating things that you could verify aren't true in 5 minutes by just opening the game, but this was removed in 2019

The bone cage misforming on the edges might've, but not the bone cage dodge you use and have promoted as a way to dismiss the many valid criticisms of Fuelweaver's design. Also, yeah, I didn't know that because I avoid fighting Fuelweaver like the plague, because, as stated, I hate how he's designed.

16 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

dog, I literally said on the other thread last week that I fully support the bone cage having a range indicator and that I'd even go as far as to have its outer range reduced a little bit, you already argue tremendously in bad faith as is but resorting to straight up lying just to validate that you're being persecuted in some way is just sad

But you and those who have the same viewpoints as you opposed even optional attack range indicators in threads where I suggested it as a general thing for all enemies in the game to have as a quality-of-life feature to help new players learn how to kite. Also, you're gonna call me "bad faith" when 90% of your posts are just random one-liner digs at people that you do to feed your ego and try to look cool?

33 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

dude, breathe

This, for a very recent example of you exhibiting that behavior. You're trying to stand on the moral high ground from a ditch you've dug yourself into.

[Hollow soul 3]

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

It definitely helps, but no, the fight is not at all easy for an average player even with auto-pause, you have a skewed view after too much training.

Not too much with him specifically. I failed 5 or 6 times because I tried to keep my beefalo alive and I didn't bring the right gear. I was a typical beefalo enjoyer, so I didn't spend enough time exploring combat options. After my worlds got deleted, I started doing combat on foot. by the time I got to him, he was pretty easy. I died once because I wasn't paying enough attention. I went in a second time expecting to lose again, but I was actually surprised he went down so quickly. The struggle for me was always doing enough damage to him while juggling the shield and heal. Healing food and football helmets will turn it into a war of nutrition, so properly stopping his healing is the most important part of the flight to me. I guess compared to no weather pain beefalo attempts, doing it with the proper lot would be easy by comparison lol.

 

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

If you're referring to the trilogy of Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring, then sure, but I dunno why you'd call that a trilogy.

I was talking about Dark Souls with how most bosses have less than 4 moves though. Because they really don't do much. Bosses of Demon Souls and Dark Souls 2 are also fairly simple. Things only started to change with Bloodborne.

are you seriously trying to argue that afw is more complex than the bosses in the dark souls trilogy? That's adorable!

Aside from that, you're having a conversation with yourself. I wasted time trying to clarify that I wasn't specifically calling out dark souls one, but the bosses in the trilogy. If you struggle with a language barrier, the third game in a trilogy is counted in with the other two games. It's when three segments add up to a completed narrative. 

[cropo]

1 hour ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

are you seriously trying to argue that afw is more complex than the bosses in the dark souls trilogy? That's adorable!

In a way FW is more complex. Souls game bosses, especially later ones, require reflexes for a majority of the fights. They do an attack, you learn to dodge it, then attack back. All the bosses that did not have "dodge and hit" as the main combat style were labeled as "gimmick" bosses, and tended to be considered either boring, for the plot, or just bad(bed of chaos).

As long as you have the reflexes to dodge in a souls game, you're probably going to kill a boss even if naked with your fists. Any additional complexities like understanding their stagger values and exploiting them for poise-breaks is a permitted expression of skill, and is in no way required or even encouraged so long as you can "just learn to dodge". These games even offer an instant invalidator for most bosses in that you can summon an NPC helper, usually located right next to the boss door, to soak up a significant portion of the aggro and give you free reign to take pot-shots to about half of the bosses health at minimum, and even downright beating the boss for you.

Fuelweaver on the other hand requires either very good swapping abilities and fiddling with a moody inventory, or being so good at the fight to the point you have his unlisted cooldowns memorized and can maintain your cool to move out of the way exactly when needed, perfectly aim to kill a bunch of creatures that will heal significant HP if they reach him, and maintain 3 different bars(health sanity hunger) throughout the fight. I've beaten every Souls game besides Sekiro and I can rush many of them in a single day. Fuelweaver is not a 100% win rate for me still.

Although to clarify I'm not asking for any Fuelweaver changes, but I do think he is more complex than a large amount of Soulslike bosses.

[Swiyss]

4 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

99% of players hate it

That's such a false statement. There is no way that this statistic is any close to 60% even.

4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

So, nah, it is a majority that liked Crab King's changes, quite a significant one, and I bet a majority would like Fuelweaver more if he got the same treatment

You're the reason this game might lose it's essence.

[Dwight34]

4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I've suggested exactly this before, and I think it's definitely the best way Klei could handle a full rework of Fuelweaver a la the very popular Crab King rework. Unfortunately, Fuelweaver's defenders accept no compromise.

Yep, all about ego, oneliners and elitism that manifests as hatred of the majority of players. ME ME ME, you need to reach MY investment level (that cannot be attained through normal gameplay, oops I've triggered them by saying the word normal, they'll run off to the mods again to get the thread locked now because their ego is shattered) or you do not deserve to experience the game. It's what all their posts amount to, and they try to silence the majority by being a vehement echo chamber, gatekeepers and aggressors trying to play the victim in the most passive-aggressive hypocritical way.

The skillset required by FW is antithetical to the entire rest of the game, just like the Rais QTE at the end of Dying Light, but since the community of this game is sane, everyone agrees that fight is bad design. It's always hilarious when the FW defenders act like every single boss in the game is bad, only FW is good, and somehow it's THEM who should be the authority on the game when in their own words they hate all of it except for that one singular boss fight. It's all ridiculous lie after ridiculous lie, coupled with intimidation attempts, to entertain some delusions of ego. And since they can't deny that, all they can do is muh one-liners, react with laughs emojis and run off to the mods. The reason I don't respect them is because they blatantly disrespect everyone in the first place and act as if they were a ruler of divine right.

1 hour ago, astareus said:

You're the reason this game might lose it's essence.

The essence of the game is inventory-swapping in one single boss-fight? Kek.

For an example at a healthy playerbase, simply look at Project Zomboid. Build 42 came out with a lot of changes that made the game way more difficult, and do you know what the very experienced players did? They didn't go "I can handle it so everyone needs to adapt to ME! I am the most important!", they noted what was wrong, and stood with all other players in asking for changes to make it fairer. AmbiguousAmphibian nor PrivateLime do not spend their entire time on forums trying to gatekeep the game so that the balance is centered around them, that's how healthy, sane people act.

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

Yep, all about ego, oneliners and elitism that manifests as hatred of the majority of players. ME ME ME, you need to reach MY investment level (that cannot be attained through normal gameplay, oops I've triggered them by saying the word normal, they'll run off to the mods again to get the thread locked now because their ego is shattered) or you do not deserve to experience the game

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

It's what all their posts amount to, and they try to silence the majority by being a vehement echo chamber, gatekeepers and aggressors trying to play the victim in the most passive-aggressive hypocritical way.

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

The skillset required by FW is antithetical to the entire rest of the game, just like the Rais QTE at the end of Dying Light, but since the community of this game is sane, everyone agrees that fight is bad design. It's always hilarious when the FW defenders act like every single boss in the game is bad, only FW is good, and somehow it's THEM who should be the authority on the game when in their own words they hate all of it except for that one singular boss fight. It's all ridiculous lie after ridiculous lie, coupled with intimidation attempts, to entertain some delusions of ego. And since they can't deny that, all they can do is muh one-liners, react with laughs emojis and run off to the mods. The reason I don't respect them is because they blatantly disrespect everyone in the first place and act as if they were a ruler of divine right.

What do you not like about fuelweaver fight?

Thematic and art design are perfect.

Gameplay use of mechanics like insanity and bone cage are both thematic.

Healing phase is made thematic.

Shield phase is made thematic.

You absolutely cannot find that the bone structure should be place inside the atrium by accident so you 100% will have to know that from someone or something online to figure it out, and it takes 30 seconds to realize you'll be better with weather pains, bee queen helm, nightmare amulet etc.. Even though all of these items are not necessary.

A spider requires a weapon to kill it, or you can use your fists instead too. Don't act like gunpowder doesn't exist, and I won't act like spears don't exist too.

Don't act like brightshade gear is not possible before the fight. Even when it's not necessary.

But still, I have no idea how one can find this fight bad since you haven't even listed why yet, you're just talking to elitists and egocentric people that don't exist xD.

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

The skillset required by FW is antithetical

Do you still want me to take you seriously?

@Dwight34 It's not elitism, It's very simple actually:

me go atrium, me go boom.

me try see what wrong, me try again.

me try again.

me can now kill fuelweaver because I practiced enough.

Now you may understand if I put in simpler terms.

It's like walking a bike, instead it seems you haven't even tried to hop on it to realize that the seat was at the wrong setting. So you just assume things that don't exist and resort to calling people the worst thing you can possibly categorize them as in your head which is for some reason something related to elitists and super egocentric people that can't see each others point of view. <--Brother that's you right there.

Try realizing that the design itself of the fight is for it to be hard enough that you need other people or to practice more.

[Hollow soul 3]

12 minutes ago, astareus said:

What do you not like about fuelweaver fight?

Thematic and art design are perfect.

Gameplay use of mechanics like insanity and bone cage are both thematic.

Healing phase is made thematic.

Shield phase is made thematic.

You absolutely cannot find that the bone structure should be place inside the atrium by accident so you 100% will have to know that from someone or something online to figure it out, and it takes 30 seconds to realize you'll be better with weather pains, bee queen helm, nightmare amulet etc.. Even though all of these items are not necessary.

A spider requires a weapon to kill it, or you can use your fists instead too. Don't act like gunpowder doesn't exist, and I won't act like spears don't exist too.

Don't act like brightshade gear is possible before the fight. Even when it's not necessary.

But still, I have no idea how one can find this fight bad since you haven't even listed why yet, you're just talking to elitists and egocentric people that don't exist xD.

Do you still want me to take you seriously?

@Dwight34 It's not elitism, It's very simple actually:

me go atrium, me go boom.

me try see what wrong, me try again.

me try again.

me can now kill fuelweaver because I practiced enough.

Now you may finally understand that I talked in simpler terms.

It's like walking a bike, instead it seems you haven't even tried to hop on it to realize that the seat was at the wrong setting. So you just assume things that don't exist and resort to calling people the worst thing you can possibly categorize them as in your head which is for some reason something related to elitists and super egocentric people that can't see each others point of view. <--Brother that's you.

No, idk how to beat him. Obvsly impossible, hax only fight.

[hyoton123]

13 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I myself find weaver alright other than the X and Y reasons being an easier way to gauge the cage and targeting improvements (the latter being I wish weaver was much harder to target with a shield up so it's easier for players to target/attack the woven shadows without accidentally hitting the unhittable boss).

Yeah, I think control problems are the bigger nuisance with fw.

[Uedo]

8 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The bone cage misforming on the edges might've, but not the bone cage dodge you use and have promoted as a way to dismiss the many valid criticisms of Fuelweaver's design. Also, yeah, I didn't know that because I avoid fighting Fuelweaver like the plague, because, as stated, I hate how he's designed.

But you and those who have the same viewpoints as you opposed even optional attack range indicators in threads where I suggested it as a general thing for all enemies in the game to have as a quality-of-life feature to help new players learn how to kite. Also, you're gonna call me "bad faith" when 90% of your posts are just random one-liner digs at people that you do to feed your ego and try to look cool?

This, for a very recent example of you exhibiting that behavior. You're trying to stand on the moral high ground from a ditch you've dug yourself into.

Why do you do this on every thread your on. Do you like to purposefully misunderstand people for funzies?

[Dwight34]

3 hours ago, astareus said:

 

Your entire post is attempts at emulating Guile's one liners but being much worse at it. But go pick up more gifs, that will surely win over the truth if you spam enough twitter slop. FW requires hyper-fast paced inventory management, that is antithetical to the rest of the game's design, just like the Rais QTE, the fact you're not even capable of recognizing such a basic fact and instead looking for dumb gifs is proof enough of your complete lack of arguments. All FW defenders have to be dishonest, and anytime I call them out on it, they do nothing but further prove me right.

[Guille6785]

9 hours ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

are you seriously trying to argue that afw is more complex than the bosses in the dark souls trilogy? That's adorable!

he is btw

10 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

But you and those who have the same viewpoints as you opposed even optional attack range indicators in threads where I suggested it as a general thing for all enemies in the game to have as a quality-of-life feature to help new players learn how to kite.

I had zero ****ing clue what you were referring to with this, so I went to check and you're referring to this thread: 

And not only did I not reply to this thread, I didn't even fill the poll

I'm genuinely trying my hardest not to be rude but seriously dude, this isn't normal, you've started resorting to either lying about easily verifiable things to make strangers on the internet look like your evil enemies OR you've spent so much time doing this **** that you're now starting to hallucinate things that I never did to justify attacking me in other threads, in either case you really need to take a break off the internet

P.S. stop bringing up the opinons of "people with the same viewpoints as you" as some sort of gotcha to assign me opinions I never said in a sad attempt to expose a supposed "contradiction" in my reasoning, the people who disagree with you are not some sort of hivemind that collectively agree on everything that you don't agree with, calling me a hypocrite because someone else said a different thing than me isn't a good faith argument

[lowercase skye]

10 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

The only reason you have trouble accepting those facts is because you are afraid of the echo chamber ostracizing you.

Please do not assign these secret deep meanings to my actions. I do not know you nor do I think we have interacted before this thread. If I cared about being ostracized by an "echo chamber" then I would not have died on the many hills I have on this forum.

[Hollow soul 3]

51 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

he is btw

I couldn't tell if you were agreeing that afw is more complex than the dark souls bosses, or if you agree that he's implying that. I've seen your stuff on the speedrun forums, you're definitely more informed on DS than I am. Totally respect that, but I would argue that the more dynamic maneuverability and combat options alone add layers beyond anything don't starve has to offer. That along with type resistances and environmental hazards make for a much more intricate combat system. I don't think it's a bad thing, maybe I'm not giving FW enough credit either. Switching to the standard approach made it all click for me, but that could be because of how bad my original approach was.