[Poll] On Maxwell's Book Reading Ability

[Arepantera]

I'm only ever using wicker to generate a ton of bananas and fish, that's it.
That makes her a swap character for me regardless of Maxwell being able to read her books, so nerfing Maxwell will not solve any of Wickerbottom's problems. Instead she should get interesting stuff that makes you want to keep playing as her.

[oregu]

This is more of a lore-thing than a gameplay thing, but Maxwell taught Wickerbottom all the things she knew in her magic books. He gave her that knowledge. Wouldn't make sense for him to not understand and use it himself if he's still using the Codex Umbra.

As for the issue at hand presented, I find this more of an issue of the books being not punishing enough rather than Maxwell being too powerful. Maybe a more appropriate change would be the books give a temporary sanity penalty that regenerates over time, but Wickerbottom's is less punishing for whatever reason. That way it also effects maxwell's other skills, and it's not something you can just bonehelm your way out of.

[Cheggf]

39 minutes ago, Quadratordo said:

Let me turn the matter on its head: let's imagine that Wickerbottom were to be able to use the Codex Umbra at a 2.5x fuel cost, and that Maxwell couldn't access her books, and let's not forget about things like free usage of the Magician's Top Hat and such.

If it was the old Codex Umbra that didn't do anything except summon servants to do work actions for you with the very niche Duelists nobody knew how to utilize then this would actually be a perfect comparison. There would be no real difference between swapping to Maxwell to chop a bunch of trees down before swapping off, or just being able to do that as Wickerbottom. It would not matter at all that Wickerbottom can use the Codex Umbra since it doesn't do anything to affect how much anyone would want to play as Maxwell. Anyone who wants to play as Maxwell because they like Maxwell would play as him, and the theoretical person who spams the portal constantly because they feel like they're gaining some advantage by constantly swapping characters would not play as Maxwell because regardless of Wickerbottom's ability to do this they would not be playing as the character who's only really helpful when you need to chop trees. But since Maxwell's introduction he has gotten more than just being the lumberjack character, just as Wickerbottom should.

[NPCMaxwell]

8 hours ago, shaurun said:

Cool idea basically, if Wicker gives you a book from her hands - no curses, but if you stole it from the shelves, you will have some debuff for a day.

Then she will be an ACTUAL librarian in the game 

[Quadratordo]

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

If it was the old Codex Umbra that didn't do anything except summon servants to do work actions for you with the very niche Duelists nobody knew how to utilize then this would actually be a perfect comparison. There would be no real difference between swapping to Maxwell to chop a bunch of trees down before swapping off, or just being able to do that as Wickerbottom. It would not matter at all that Wickerbottom can use the Codex Umbra since it doesn't do anything to affect how much anyone would want to play as Maxwell.

Indeed, that's how it used to be. But that was in the past, and since his/their refreshes, Maxwell's scope has evolved beyond shadow servants, as you've said; the situation is now that there's one character, who's powerful and feature-complete on its own (minus the skill tree, which I'm cautiously optimistic about), who also has full access to everything that ''distinguishes'' (taking that word with a grain of salt) another character, which already struggles with not having anything going for them except for their gear. As I've mentioned before, simply taking away his ability to read books out of the blue would be a ham-fisted solution to a multi-tiered problem, but I do think it can be done properly, if paired with the right update, in order to turn this ancient feature yoink into alternative, unique interactions. 

 

[Dingle]

35 minutes ago, Quadratordo said:

Indeed, that's how it used to be. But that was in the past, and since his/their refreshes, Maxwell's scope has evolved beyond shadow servants, as you've said; the situation is now that there's one character, who's powerful and feature-complete on its own (minus the skill tree, which I'm cautiously optimistic about), who also has full access to everything that ''distinguishes'' (taking that word with a grain of salt) another character, which already struggles with not having anything going for them except for their gear. As I've mentioned before, simply taking away his ability to read books out of the blue would be a ham-fisted solution to a multi-tiered problem, but I do think it can be done properly, if paired with the right update, in order to turn this ancient feature yoink into alternative, unique interactions. 

 

It 100% makes sense to remove Maxwell being able to use Wickerbottom's entire kit.

I wonder if the devs could do it though.

Have they ever truly nerfed a character?

[Quadratordo]

17 minutes ago, Dingle said:

It 100% makes sense to remove Maxwell being able to use Wickerbottom's entire kit.

I wonder if the devs could do it though.

Have they ever truly nerfed a character?

I do think that the DS community as a whole tends to be very averse to nerfs. That being said, There's more to this matter than simply taking away Maxwell's ability to read Wickerbottom's books, as I've explained. It is part of what should be done, though, that's for sure.

[Bumber64]

17 hours ago, Cheggf said:

What books are you using as Maxwell that you feel make Wickerbottom redundant?

You'll keep asking this and never accept the answers you're given.

Wickerbottom isn't given any special ways to harvest the resources her books summon. When you claim Maxwell with workers doesn't benefit from this, you're implying her books don't actually function to begin with. It's laughable.

15 hours ago, Popian said:

How many bookcases and duplicate sets of books do you make to offset the fact they are stationary?

Maxwell isn't really any worse off than Wickerbottom on this. Even if you were inclined to build them on demand, you'd need books for each one, or have to stand around for days while they recharge. (Wicker only halves time for the latter, stuck within 3 tiles.)

It's more practical to carry extra books and swap them at base. Maxwell's better at that.

13 hours ago, oregu said:

This is more of a lore-thing than a gameplay thing, but Maxwell taught Wickerbottom all the things she knew in her magic books. He gave her that knowledge. Wouldn't make sense for him to not understand and use it himself if he's still using the Codex Umbra.

He didn't. He used the codex to force the books into her mind.

He can read her books because they're in the same language as the codex. His technical knowledge of non-shadow topics isn't as strong. It would reasonably take him longer to cast, or he could fail sometimes.

Wicker taught Wurt to read, but the topics are above her grade level. Can't do calculus without knowing algebra.

[oregu]

24 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

He didn't. He used the codex to force the books into her mind.

He can read her books because they're in the same language as the codex. His technical knowledge of non-shadow topics isn't as strong. It would reasonably take him longer to cast, or he could fail sometimes.

By "use it himself" I mean use the spell that made Wickerbottom gain that knowledge on himself. Maxwell originally authored the constant, and that would require more knowledge than Wickerbottom knows. After being trapped on the throne for so long, it's not surprising he'd forget it all. But now that he can read the books that contained the knowledge he taught Wickerbottom on a whim, he can use those abilities again. If you had a magic ability to bring all that knowledge into your mind, wouldn't you use it on yourself? It seems like too much of an oversight to not do that.. I'd like to believe that Wickerbottom is smarter than Maxwell currently, but not smarter than Maxwell at his prime. Just because Maxwell isn't saying "smart" phrases doesn't mean he didn't know that stuff. It means he has a different personality than WIckerbottom.

[DegenerateFurry]

On 3/17/2025 at 1:26 AM, Cheggf said:

It doesn't even really benefit him. 99% of the books' power comes from massing resources or making lingering things that don't require you to stay as the character who read the book. There is no point to remove this, it's just a cute little lore thing like Wurt being able to read the books that might have some situational use in multiplayer.

You're joking, right? Let's see, here's what it lets Maxwell do:

1. Turn rain on or off as he pleases. This is extremely handy in spring, summer, and winter (in the caves), since you can basically disable the primary mechanic of either season. 
2. Amplify his already extreme resource-gathering efficiency massively by allowing him to insta-grow plants.
3. Easily produce loads of food, including useful varieties like green and blue caps if you're using Horticulture on mushroom planters. The fishing book also counts towards this.
4. If you're farming for giant crops, you get a renewable way to keep them growing at light via Lux Aeterna Redux.
5. Control the lunar cycle, summoning a full moon whenever he pleases.
6. Make tentacle-based farms for bosses like Bee Queen. 
7. Increase his combat capabilities further using Apicultural Notes. 

I'm not even sure what your point is. He can do literally everything Wickerbottom can once she's made the book, but nobody else can and they'd have to switch back to her whenever they need to use those books again (not doable during a trip through rainy caves, not feasible as a weather or lunar cycle control system, doesn't work with Apicultural Notes, not really feasible with food production, and too inconvenient when you could just plant more trees or saplings - the only one this actually works well with is tentacle farms). 

It massively, massively benefits Maxwell to be able to use Wickerbottom's books? That's just obvious to anyone who's played her or him or both.

Just to be clear about the rain stuff: to keep the weather the way you want it to be, you will need to use the rain book just about every day or more frequently in the seasons you'd use it in, especially if you're fighting moslings (who tend to turn rain back on by themselves). That is too frequent a use-case for burning a moonrock idol every time you want to change the weather. 

[Bumber64]

5 minutes ago, oregu said:

By "use it himself" I mean use the spell that made Wickerbottom gain that knowledge on himself. Maxwell originally authored the constant, and that would require more knowledge than Wickerbottom knows. After being trapped on the throne for so long, it's not surprising he'd forget it all. But now that he can read the books that contained the knowledge he taught Wickerbottom on a whim, he can use those abilities again. If you had a magic ability to bring all that knowledge into your mind, wouldn't you use it on yourself? It seems like too much of an oversight to not do that.. I'd like to believe that Wickerbottom is smarter than Maxwell currently, but not smarter than Maxwell at his prime.

He absolutely did not author the constant. He made changes from the nightmare throne, which Charlie now controls.

He could probably use the codex to force Wicker's written books into his own brain (assuming shadow deals don't require a third party or the throne). The cost for doing this is likely permanent insomnia for Maxwell.

[kehun]

I like Maxwell being able to read her book but i have little "nerf" suggestion

If you are playing as Maxwell and you want to use Wickers books there could be like 33% that you will do nothing or you will summon negative effects like summoning new moon instead full moon maybe? I have no idea but i think devs will nerf usage of books for Maxwell (Probably if they will add new books for Wicker unlocked by skill only her will be able to use it)

[oregu]

1 minute ago, Bumber64 said:

He absolutely did not author the constant. He made changes from the nightmare throne, which Charlie now controls.

He could probably use the codex to force Wicker's written books into his own brain (assuming shadow deals don't require a third party or the throne). The cost for doing this is likely permanent insomnia for Maxwell.

Well, Maxwell's quote for Sleepytime Stories

"I haven't had a real sleep in... ages." (He is almost in the same boat as Wickerbottom, but not quite)

Maybe bad wording, I don't mean completely author the constant, but one of the authors of the constant. He wasn't the creator, that's for sure.

This is disproven by merms,

Merms - "They were here when I got here"

But for ice/fire hounds - "I put red gems in there as a joke" and "I had too many excess gems."

Tentacles - "I'm glad the rest of it is still down there." (He originally saw what the tentacle creature looks like.)

Spiders - "It's mostly digestive system." (He knows the anatomy of a spider. Maybe I'm looking too far into this though.)

That's the fun part about it though, that you really don't know the exact details of what Maxwell knows. But he knew enough at one point to do what Wickerbottom does.

Two interesting lines are for the books that seem to suggest opposite things

The Everything Encyclopedia - "Hmph. It doesn't hold a candle to the secret knowledge I possess." (This could be referring to just his Codex though)
Lux Aeterna Redux- "Now she's just showing off." (As if Maxwell didn't build his career in showing off magic)

[Masked Koopa]

On 3/18/2025 at 3:39 AM, Ridley said:

I think everyone should be able to read the books because she would feel more like a librarian if people were borrowing her books. There would probably need to be some drawback added to doing so though.

I like the idea of having "unlucky" versions of each book's effect, with most non-Wicker characters having a small chance to trigger them. Wes would procc said effects every time.

[flamboyant wolf]

So much apicultural notes hate... Nobody appreciates bees nowadays...

(my personal favourite Wickerbottom book, as well as my favourite battle-oriented follower in the game)

[Nikki Darks]

If not removed, Wicker needs to get more benefits from reading her books than Maxwell; right now she is just a swap character. People who say otherwise have clearly never experienced it.

[Edible Coal]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

If not removed, Wicker needs to get more benefits from reading her books than Maxwell; right now she is just a swap character. People who say otherwise have clearly never experienced it.

even if her book cant be read by maxwell, she is still mostly a swap character

[Bumber64]

9 hours ago, flamboyant wolf said:

So much apicultural notes hate... Nobody appreciates bees nowadays...

"What's this? A handsome family picnic woefully underpopulated by bees? A large influx of bees ought to put a stop to that!" -Dr. Wickerbees

[somethin]

I love that Wurt can read the book with barely any effects cuz she's too dumb 

[Prinha]

On 3/18/2025 at 5:22 AM, Quadratordo said:

I do have to wonder just how much of an impact the ''it's always been this way'' mindset has for people answering this poll. Let me turn the matter on its head: let's imagine that Wickerbottom were to be able to use the Codex Umbra at a 2.5x fuel cost, and that Maxwell couldn't access her books, and let's not forget about things like free usage of the Magician's Top Hat and such. I'm sure people can point out the negative impact this would have on Maxwell as his own distinct character (Who does not live in a vacuum, by the way; no character does, not in a game where switching characters is this trivial), so why would the other way around be fine?

What exactly would the negative effect on Maxwell be? What would he gain by nerfing somebody else?

Are you not playing as the character that you want to be playing because somebody else is "stronger" whatever that may mean?

Wickerbottom is my favourite character and one of my mains. I would never play Maxwell over her because his sound is annoying, he has piss poor life and I actually actively dislike the way his ressource gathering was changed. Also not interested in fumbling with the shadow magic menu. Though the quotes are amazing. Just in general I prefer to play female characters. For what thats worth it's more immersing to me

--
All of these "Nerf Portal, nerf swapping, nerf character synergy, x, y, z, op" discussion have the cart before the horse. 
People play as characters they want to play as. If those characters happen to have a good synergy with somebody else they will pick up that synergy through the portal or through multiplayer. If not they won't.

If you take away the synergy people will not suddenly drop their main and start playing as the character that provided the synergy. Though people might drop their main if somebody else is suddenly more appealing to them. They might even drop the game altogether if you just nerf things enough. Taking away the bookcase would first and foremost be a nerf to Wickerbottom not to Maxwell. 

So if somebody mains Maxwell, they might realize that they can use Wicker's rainbook to protect their base. A good enough reason to build the portal, get yourself a copy and a bookcase and swap back. Good for them, why shouldn't they? 

Have you ever considered how great it is that somebody else can provide full moon's or manipulate rain even if nobody mains Wickerbottom?

And none of that is even Maxwell specific. People in this thread mention megabasers as if we are some weird exotic species that plays the game in a completly different way. Megabasers will be the least affected if Maxwell stops being able to read the books. Because megabasers have the logistics and ressources to switch to Wickerbottom and read the books and then switch back at a moments notice. It's public servers without the portal or a scarcity of purple gems where a Wickerbottom played and then left leaving her books behind where this would make a difference.

---
The so called swap characters have something in common. They have good or amazing synergy with almost everyone and are also less popular than other characters for many reasons. Some of these reasons could be adressed by buffing those characters and expanding on their unique gameplay. 

Personally I'm really looking forward to Wicker's skill tree. 

[Mysterious box]

I've given my thoughts on it in the past but I've somewhat changed my mind on how it should be handled. I think the easiest solution would be to change how the book system works. Make it so the bookcase no longer passively restores books instead she can spend reeds to restore books at her bookcase perhaps 25% per reed and make it so books passively regenerate in her inventory instead. This way so long as you manage your sanity you can feel more free with casting on the go and maintenance of books would require a Wickerbottom long term.

An additional change would be to make it so books no longer break at 0 however you would instead need the minimum required durability to cast spells.

[Popian]

On 3/18/2025 at 6:47 PM, Bumber64 said:

Maxwell isn't really any worse off than Wickerbottom on this. Even if you were inclined to build them on demand, you'd need books for each one, or have to stand around for days while they recharge. (Wicker only halves time for the latter, stuck within 3 tiles.)

It's more practical to carry extra books and swap them at base. Maxwell's better at that.

The idea is to place bookcases at points of interest to repair books while visiting them and taking them out when you leave. Eventually you will be able to make duplicate sets to free up inventory slots that were dedicated to books.

I understand that the advantages she has with books don't look as desirable compared to switching and finding workarounds, but they are still there.

12 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

she is still mostly a swap character

I think the main problem lies in tying the cost to sanity and low book durability to limit the rate. With infinite supply there is no demand.

A fitting way to increase demand would be to introduce buff potions she can make out of things she can grow like mushrooms and berries.

[GetNerfedOn]

On 3/18/2025 at 5:23 PM, NPCMaxwell said:

Then she will be an ACTUAL librarian in the game 

as an actual librarian i could not be more offended by something so true

[Quadratordo]

26 minutes ago, Prinha said:

What exactly would the negative effect on Maxwell be? What would he gain by nerfing somebody else?

As I've said, characters do not exist in a vacuum; If one character possesses other characters' perks, along with their own, then that other characters' appeal is diminished by comparison, as a character's appeal is defined by how unique and interesting they are, both in gameplay and flavor. In such a case, however, all that they have going for themselves is flavor and minor numeric stat differences, as proved by the fact you do play Wickerbottom mainly because of such factors (as well as your dislike for Maxwell)

One could represent Wickerbottom and Maxwell as two circles of different sizes in a Venn diagram: Wickerbottom's defining gameplay features are almost entirely enclosed within Maxwell's circle, as she is, at least currently, just about entirely about her books... exception being made for her slightly different stats, and her disadvantages, which are fairly minor and something that Maxwell wouldn't want to have anyways. However, his features are all outside of Wickerbottom's circle, all things that make him both a unique character to play and extremely powerful even if you only count those. To put it bluntly, one could absorb Wickerbottom's character into Maxwell simply by giving him her crafts, and the game would only be one personality short, not so much one character. This is not good, of course; Wickerbottom deserves better... true synergy, not feature parasitism (bit of a strong word here, but you get what I mean)
 

1 hour ago, Prinha said:

Are you not playing as the character that you want to be playing because somebody else is "stronger" whatever that may mean?

Quite the opposite actually; I main Maxwell. Some people might be simply petty and wish for a nerf in order to figuratively make the neighbor's grass the same shade of yellow as their own, but this is not the case here; a healthy, interesting and well-distinguished character roster is more important than my individual character preference.

 

1 hour ago, Prinha said:

The so called swap characters have something in common. They have good or amazing synergy with almost everyone and are also less popular than other characters for many reasons. Some of these reasons could be adressed by buffing those characters and expanding on their unique gameplay. 

I'd like to bring attention to the use of the word ''synergy'' here; if you ask me, it isn't quite the right word for this. ''Swap characters'' are mostly characterized by the fact that you can take most or all of what they can provide for a team outside of their control, without requiring further input from them, and conveniently store it away for free later use as (almost) any other character. That is not synergy, as that would imply a mutual benefit greater than the sum of its parts, and packaging exclusive items and structures away and possibly change into a more convenient character without any ripercussion on said things does not qualify. Some might say that eliminating the Celestial Portal would be a valid solution, but I'd say that's mistaking the forest for the trees; it wouldn't fix the real reason for certain characters being ''swap characters''; that is, the combined lack of gameplay appeal and ease of transferring what is appealing/powerful about them, outside of the characters themselves. Luckily, things like Winona's skill tree show that such situations can be amended.

 

1 hour ago, Prinha said:

Personally I'm really looking forward to Wicker's skill tree. 

Yeah, I've been itching for that one for a long time now. But hey, good news is, later skill trees are bound to be made with a clearer scope on Klei's part, so that's fine.

[Cassielu]

On 3/18/2025 at 1:38 PM, oregu said:

This is more of a lore-thing than a gameplay thing, but Maxwell taught Wickerbottom all the things she knew in her magic books. He gave her that knowledge. Wouldn't make sense for him to not understand and use it himself if he's still using the Codex Umbra.

Maxwell claimed that he knew every crafting recipe in the game, but had forgotten them. He also designed and built the Teleportato and Jury-Rigged Portal, which we weren't allowed to do in the game.

Adding Wicker's book to this list is not a big deal.