Crab King is the worst designer boss

[WilsonHiggs]

2 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

again, survival game ≠ fight simulator game

this game (supposedly) not even need to have such convoluted fight system, but because almost everything useful was gotten via fighting things, klei ramped up the need for combat skills

There is no survival if the player cant die. Also having fun and balanced fights ≠ Fight simulator game 

I dont get what do you considere convoluted. Is a shame that a boss using some of the wide variety of mechanics of the game is getting this treatment. Is way funnier and original to have bosses like FW and klaus instead of all the new bosses which only require to hit and evade their physical atacks

This game has many underused cool mechanics and room for many more

[Anis5240]

in all seriousness tho, I think Klei should refer back to SW's Quacken fight on how to make a sea fight fun. Obviously, y'all gonna clown over le funny 'water shoes (hur dur)' but the boss still spawns tons of waves that both help and hinder you.

1 minute ago, WilsonHiggs said:

klaus

klaus was literally among the easiest ANR boss. And guess what? You can just dodge all those attacks with enough speed.

[WilsonHiggs]

Just now, Anis5240 said:

klaus was literally among the easiest ANR boss

So? Im talking about good and balanced desings that also uses the mechanics

[Anis5240]

Just now, WilsonHiggs said:

balanced

ah yes wx with 3x speed circuit go bbbrbrrrrrr 

5 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

There is no survival if the player cant die.

I guess wilderness mode just collecting dust at the corner then

[Cassielu]

This is for the gem selection strategy gameplay to work, you select part of CK abilities to enhanced so that they will became difficult or impossible to ignore, while the part that are not selected remain relatively simple and easy.

[Anis5240]

I think it's such a missed opportunity that CK just stays fixed at one spot. It's just an even more obnoxious Antlion that's part of such a lengthy ass quest that it doesn't feel rewarding to go through.

Now I ain't saying CK should have a hybrid fight mode like Tiger Shark in SW but I think it'd be more fun like have the gems act differently in both sea and land, cuz again, if you messed up the fight in water, you messed up big time.

[cropo]

10 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

that's exactly how long the celestial champion fight takes as a character with no damage multipliers and a ham bat (no animation cancelling), and as Wes (like in the video) it takes 19 minutes, yet a quick search shows you repeatedly praising the celestial champion compared to fuelweaver

That, and these two are the titular ''Final bosses" of their respective alignments so I think having a longer fight is completely justified for them.


For me Fuelweaver himself is totally fine, it's getting the weather pains that I hate...and fighting him without weather pains, using a character-exclusive AOE, or rushing Brightshade equips to steamroll him aren't solutions I like either.

If there was a more accessible AOE option that lacked Weather Pains utility(it's too useful for other things to make cheaper) I think AFW would be more fun to deal with.

[aidankocherhans]

9 hours ago, Anis5240 said:

2 full stacks at best (1 full stack is 8000 damage total)

Do you blow it all up at the start, or is there a specific way you need to do it?

[Cruvimaster]

The new Crab King is relatively easy to beat and the loot is interesting.

 

I liked the old Crab King, but he didn't allow mistakes to be made during the fight. The new one can make enough mistakes and still win.
 

 

[Anis5240]

24 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Do you blow it all up at the start, or is there a specific way you need to do it?

nah, fw got that gunpowder resistance thingy after 10 seconds iirc

what I usually do is fight him like usual until he's almost entering his 2nd phase, then go kebaboom, then just kill the hands and woven shadows and if you get it right, just about ¾ of the other stack would kill him.

[Cruvimaster]

For me, CK is far from being the worst monster designer.

[Echsrick]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

"It's a good fight, just skip it!"

Maybe not the best defense of it?

i never tried selling crab king to be a good fight, thats why i use gun powder

[W0l0l0]

22 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

Okay but if you're character doesn't have aoe and you aren't really skilled at the fight you'll need 3 or 4 weather pains

I've managed with 2. And I really wouldn't say I'm exceptionally proficient (definitely had to practice on another world first though!!).

Weather Pains also stun the Fuelweaver when they're invulnerable which is useful, and for a final boss, I really think it's okay as a requirement to have to use 3 or 4 in exchange for the fight being easier.

Yeah the bone cage is stupid, I'll concede that, but its the final boss, I'm okay with burning a few gems for it.

 

What bothers me is the targeting, and inventory management, which are both horrible issues for me with Crab King as well.

[Well-met]

8 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

The new Crab King is relatively easy to beat and the loot is interesting.

This player is very experienced at the game and yet he still nearly drowned about 5 times... there's not even less than half a second of room for those "errors".

and I can't see how being forced to run a lazy explorer is "easy". In my book a boss can be considered easy if you don't have to ruins rush beforehand.

Old fight was superior and less expensive in every way if you could kill or dodge claws in time.

also since we're still talking about AFW, my only change for him would be for sanity monsters to not spawn during his fight if the server only has one player.

[Cruvimaster]

Just now, Well-met said:

and I can't see how being forced to run a lazy explorer is "easy". 

Something "forced" for me is someone saying that they can do all of Crab King's quests and that this same person can't craft a simple Lazy Explorer in the ruins.

DST is a strategy game. I used the weakest and cheapest boat in the game (Rass Raft) and balanced the strategy with a Lazy Explorer. I could simply craft the standard boat and use Driftwood Oar. That's because everyone does it, by the way.

When I made this video, the game didn't even have the Gloomerang (which makes this fight even easier).

The old CK was much more expensive. Comparing 1 Lazy Explore with several ice staffs must be a joke.

In the old Crab King we only saw the bee cheat because it was so difficult for the overwhelming majority of the community.

Could you defeat CK with Wilson? Or did you use Wolfgang or another character considered strong?

 

 

And without using the animation cancel in this video I would need more ice staffs. How can you compare this to a single Lazy Explorer?

 

[aidankocherhans]

3 hours ago, Well-met said:

This player is very experienced at the game and yet he still nearly drowned about 5 times... there's not even less than half a second of room for those "errors".

and I can't see how being forced to run a lazy explorer is "easy". In my book a boss can be considered easy if you don't have to ruins rush beforehand.

Old fight was superior and less expensive in every way if you could kill or dodge claws in time.

also since we're still talking about AFW, my only change for him would be for sanity monsters to not spawn during his fight if the server only has one player.

Would you like a detailed explanation on how you can fight him? It can be done with low risk and no lazy explorer

[WilsonHiggs]

6 hours ago, Well-met said:

also since we're still talking about AFW, my only change for him would be for sanity monsters to not spawn during his fight if the server only has one player

Is the shadow boss, suggesting to dont have shadows makes little sense. Also the players could abuse his mind control safely

6 hours ago, Well-met said:

Old fight was superior and less expensive in every way if you could kill or dodge claws in time.

How is less expensive? Before you needed several weather pains and ice staves while now you only need a boat, few tables and patches, armor and a weapon 

[JaxckLl]

The problem comes down to Crab King healing. No boss should ever heal, or ever reach a state where an alive player avoiding damage with an intact weapon can't eventually kill them. It's fine for one, maybe two, super end game bosses to break that rule (Fuelweaver for example), but Crab King is explicitly meant to be a mid game fight. Indeed his drops imply that he's meant to be an early game fight done before you seriously explore the oceans. He feels more like a Deerclops or a Spider Queen in terms of the rewards, but is as challenging if not more than a superfluous raid boss like Bee Queen. I wonder if the solution is not to try reworking the existing fight any more. Currently it works as a fight. I agree the despawning minions is unrewarding in a bad way. However the bigger issue I see is that Crab King is unpleasant enough to fight that players won't do it until they have Pearl's Pearl, and then they'll usually only fight him the once.

Suggestions

• Make the current Crab King fight the Pearled version of the fight, and add a simpler version of the fight with no healing & no ice platform stages (and no knockback for the player's boat) that gives the Strident Trident (plus his other normal rewards). This would make that cool weapon much more accessible and encourage players to fight Crab King as soon as they find him, before they've done Pearl's tasks. I would go so far as to say that Bee Queen should probably have the same treatment, the current quite challenging fight (if solo or not cheesing) and a simpler & quicker fight that rewards the blueprint. Essentially do what Misery Toadstool does, a solo version of the fight that should be doable upon discovering the boss arena, and a super-version of the boss that is dramatically more challenging encouraging cheese or working with other players.
• Crab King's crab guards should be able to swim and hop on to the player's boats after the ice platform breaks up. Make them Crab's Grumble Bees. A constant nuissance that can be addressed temporarily by killing them or with a panflute, and they will eventually respawn lost crabs during an extended fight. It's nice that they have drops, one of the worst parts of Bee Queen's fight is that her minions do not have any drops (it makes killing grumbles feel like an extra waste. Would a 5% chance to get a Honey or a Stinger really be that unbalanced?).
• Give Crab King a unique resource like Royal Jelly that encourages doing his fight on the regular. Killing him once is necessary. Killing him more than that is basically a mistake, since you're converting gems & weapon uses (and panflute uses) into Barnacles, Meat, Message Jars, and Shell Bells. It's not a good source of Barnacles or Meat (why is it regular meat not fish meat...?) and shell bells are mostly a vanity item (although they do interact with farm tiles which is cute). A guaranteed source of Jars is great, but even if they roll a submerged chest, you still have to go & get the chest. Personally I really like sailing so having some objectives to sail to is great. However I can usually get the same number of jars just by existing at sea & sailing around a bit. I would give Crab King a Crab Meat drop (replacing all the Meat which currently drops, plus an extra few pieces from Crab himself) which is needed to make the new Crab Cake recipe (1 Crab Meat + 1 Peppers + no other meat). Crab Cakes have an incredible spoilage time (40 days), great stats (75 hunger, 30 sanity, 50 health), but their primary bonus is +10 damage against ocean mobs (might even be able to push it to +15 or +20). This would not only make killing Crab King a second time a lot easier, but also reward players who want to be at sea with resources that better enable being at sea. The above average stats for the quality of the dish is a significant reward for any player in any situation.
• All the crabs should probably drop some number of Broken Shells, as currently that resource is surprisingly hard to acccumulate while at sea.

[WilsonHiggs]

46 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

problem comes down to Crab King healing. No boss should ever heal

Hard disagree 

[aidankocherhans]

47 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

The problem comes down to Crab King healing. No boss should ever heal, or ever reach a state where an alive player avoiding damage with an intact weapon can't eventually kill them. It's fine for one, maybe two, super end game bosses to break that rule (Fuelweaver for example), but Crab King is explicitly meant to be a mid game fight. Indeed his drops imply that he's meant to be an early game fight done before you seriously explore the oceans. He feels more like a Deerclops or a Spider Queen in terms of the rewards, but is as challenging if not more than a superfluous raid boss like Bee Queen. I wonder if the solution is not to try reworking the existing fight any more. Currently it works as a fight. I agree the despawning minions is unrewarding in a bad way. However the bigger issue I see is that Crab King is unpleasant enough to fight that players won't do it until they have Pearl's Pearl, and then they'll usually only fight him the once.

Suggestions

• Make the current Crab King fight the Pearled version of the fight, and add a simpler version of the fight with no healing & no ice platform stages (and no knockback for the player's boat) that gives the Strident Trident (plus his other normal rewards). This would make that cool weapon much more accessible and encourage players to fight Crab King as soon as they find him, before they've done Pearl's tasks. I would go so far as to say that Bee Queen should probably have the same treatment, the current quite challenging fight (if solo or not cheesing) and a simpler & quicker fight that rewards the blueprint. Essentially do what Misery Toadstool does, a solo version of the fight that should be doable upon discovering the boss arena, and a super-version of the boss that is dramatically more challenging encouraging cheese or working with other players.
• Crab King's crab guards should be able to swim and hop on to the player's boats after the ice platform breaks up. Make them Crab's Grumble Bees. A constant nuissance that can be addressed temporarily by killing them or with a panflute, and they will eventually respawn lost crabs during an extended fight. It's nice that they have drops, one of the worst parts of Bee Queen's fight is that her minions do not have any drops (it makes killing grumbles feel like an extra waste. Would a 5% chance to get a Honey or a Stinger really be that unbalanced?).
• Give Crab King a unique resource like Royal Jelly that encourages doing his fight on the regular. Killing him once is necessary. Killing him more than that is basically a mistake, since you're converting gems & weapon uses (and panflute uses) into Barnacles, Meat, Message Jars, and Shell Bells. It's not a good source of Barnacles or Meat (why is it regular meat not fish meat...?) and shell bells are mostly a vanity item (although they do interact with farm tiles which is cute). A guaranteed source of Jars is great, but even if they roll a submerged chest, you still have to go & get the chest. Personally I really like sailing so having some objectives to sail to is great. However I can usually get the same number of jars just by existing at sea & sailing around a bit. I would give Crab King a Crab Meat drop (replacing all the Meat which currently drops, plus an extra few pieces from Crab himself) which is needed to make the new Crab Cake recipe (1 Crab Meat + 1 Peppers + no other meat). Crab Cakes have an incredible spoilage time (40 days), great stats (75 hunger, 30 sanity, 50 health), but their primary bonus is +10 damage against ocean mobs (might even be able to push it to +15 or +20). This would not only make killing Crab King a second time a lot easier, but also reward players who want to be at sea with resources that better enable being at sea. The above average stats for the quality of the dish is a significant reward for any player in any situation.
• All the crabs should probably drop some number of Broken Shells, as currently that resource is surprisingly hard to acccumulate while at sea.

I really don't want to say skill issue, but if you think he needs to be nerfed even without the pearl, you just need to learn the fight better. He seems really tough at first, but if you find a good strategy it's very manageable.

 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

The problem comes down to Crab King healing.

His healing is not a big deal if you don't buff it with extra gems, I've had more trouble with nightmare werepig healing

[Cheggf]

55 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

It's fine for one, maybe two, super end game bosses to break that rule (Fuelweaver for example), but Crab King is explicitly meant to be a mid game fight. Indeed his drops imply that he's meant to be an early game fight done before you seriously explore the oceans. He feels more like a Deerclops or a Spider Queen in terms of the rewards, but is as challenging if not more than a superfluous raid boss like Bee Queen.

Crab King's parallel is a trio of bosses that are literally impossible for you to fight without going through dozens of pieces of armor and thousands of health worth of healing if you just walk up to them with nothing more than a weapon and armor. Their attacks are entirely undodgeable and extremely damaging (165!!!) so you need to do something like bring a bunch of summons or stack three different speed boosts, which would require you to either go into the ruins for a magiluminesence and wait for winter for a cane if you aren't lucky enough for the actual midgame boss ancient guardian to drop a lazy explorer at a 25% chance, or go through all the effort of taming a beefalo over the course of several hours.

Crab King is not an early or mid game boss, he is the one single boss preventing you from fighting what for many years was irrefutably the final boss of the game, and even now is basically still the final boss which now unlocks a harder postgame section. He is the penultimate boss, the second to last you fight. And yet despite that, he is still far easier to fight and requires far less resources than his shadow counterpart.

[Catuna_]

I really dislike this iteration of crab king; I wish they stuck with the original concept and tried to fix it to be more accessible for less experienced players.
CK is way too easy in a lot of ways now, and I wish they kept a bit more challenge. Yes, he's kind of a parallel to the shadow pieces which are easy, but I think those kinda leave a lot to be desired too... The idea of a boss that only targets your boat is just so much cooler, now CK is just a fight that just kinda gets bullied by any character...

This fight really just revolves around ignoring all of the boss' mechanics in the form of never upgrading the towers, sleeping the minions and avoiding the claws completely which makes it feel boring. The ice platform is just ??? because at this point you're not even fighting on a boat most of the time. The fact that you can just skip phase 1 because you can hold F as any character before the claws catch up to you is equally lame, and the new gem system still suffers from the same problems as the old one where there's some gems you'd just never use unless you were actively trying to make it harder on yourself (albeit not as severe). CK being so easily shut down in his healing phase definitely feels odd to me, and even then I feel like boat gripping was a much better mechanic than spawning a couple minions with terrible pathfinding. Even if you made them immune to sleep, you'd still tank them to get the most damage off because attacking them punishes you via CK healing. You're just never winning when you interact with new CK's mechanics. He doesn't even freeze you anymore. Towers miss a lot of the time and un-upgraded towers just kinda don't really do enough to pressure the player in any capacity.

I was very stoked for a rework, but I really did end up underwhelmed by the final product.
 

[JaxckLl]

48 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

I really don't want to say skill issue, but if you think he needs to be nerfed even without the pearl, you just need to learn the fight better. He seems really tough at first, but if you find a good strategy it's very manageable.

 

His healing is not a big deal if you don't buff it with extra gems, I've had more trouble with nightmare werepig healing

There is no point in replying if you're just going to be toxic.

[aidankocherhans]

59 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

There is no point in replying if you're just going to be toxic.

I wasn't trying to be toxic, sorry that it came off that way, I'm saying that crab king just needs understanding of the fight to be fairly easy, the actual gameplay execution isn't very hard at that point. I could give you some advice if you've been struggling with the fight

[Well-met]

19 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

Would you like a detailed explanation on how you can fight him? It can be done with low risk and no lazy explorer

if it involves a trawler, bees or a flute im not interested