Crab King is the worst designer boss

[-Variant]

My gripe with the new CK is mostly down to the ice phase, I liked him being an ocean boss but between the not-so-visually-pleasing ice phase and the absolutely ABSURD amount of trash, particles, and item spam that ends up happening during the fight, I'm easily taken out of it.

I seriously can't stand how messy the fight is now. There's just so much going on it's hard to keep focus.

[DegenerateFurry]

46 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

this is what I'm talking about, someone lists a perfectly achievable list of resources you can spend in the fight with some amount of practice and you immediately jump to saying that they are min/maxing damage as a wolfgang with spicy jelly???

They listed a ridiculously small amount of resources that are literally impossible to do the fight with otherwise. Go ahead, do Fuelweaver with one piece of armor, a small amount of sanity food (max 20 green caps/cacti), no healing food, one weather pain, and one lazy explorer as Wilson with a ham bat and not even a nightmare amulet (he didn't list it). No bone cage dodges, no anim cancels, no buffs, just fight it normally like a normal player with his under-equipped death sentence loadout. I doubt even you can.

Oh, and if you do somehow manage it, I want to know how many failed attempts you had before pulling it off.

[Dwight34]

The biggest issue to me will always remain that by its very nature, it's an infinitely more punishing fight than any other in the game because no amount of preparation can erase CK's ability to end the fight the moment you make 1 small mistake, no other boss can legit 1 tap you no matter how much you prepare. You can't armor boats, drowning is super easy and can even arrive due to misinput that's not even your fault, he's the most stressful boss in the entire game despite being supposed to be the lunar equivalent to the shadow pieces in terms of progression. I'll always grind the gunpowder to put him at 1hp before starting the fight, because he's just not worth the immense difficulty.

[Guille6785]

13 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Fourteen minutes long.

Need I say more?

that's exactly how long the celestial champion fight takes as a character with no damage multipliers and a ham bat (no animation cancelling), and as Wes (like in the video) it takes 19 minutes, yet a quick search shows you repeatedly praising the celestial champion compared to fuelweaver

11 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

They listed a ridiculously small amount of resources that are literally impossible to do the fight with otherwise. Go ahead, do Fuelweaver with one piece of armor, a small amount of sanity food (max 20 green caps/cacti), no healing food, one weather pain, and one lazy explorer as Wilson with a ham bat and not even a nightmare amulet (he didn't list it).

WilsonHiggs was listing the resources that need to be wasted (expended), not all the items that need to be made, since that was what you were falsely claiming

a nightmare amulet does not need to be expended since 1 is enough for like 10 fuelweaver fights (and you can just use the bone helm after the first fight)

11 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

No bone cage dodges, no anim cancels, no buffs, just fight it normally like a normal player with his under-equipped death sentence loadout. I doubt even you can.

Oh, and if you do somehow manage it, I want to know how many failed attempts you had before pulling it off.

idk if you think I'm stupid but I can tell from a mile away that this is a cop-out so that if I do send you a video of me doing it with those resources you can immediately ignore it by saying I'm not playing like a “normal player”, since that's a completely meaningless thing to say that you can decide the meaning of on the spot

[Prinha]

4 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Fourteen minutes long.

Need I say more?

How about "Oops, JoeshMo did the fight as Wes with only 20 Jerkies. It seems I was wrong and one does actually not need 40 green caps to do it."

[DegenerateFurry]

16 minutes ago, Prinha said:

How about "Oops, JoeshMo did the fight as Wes with only 20 Jerkies. It seems I was wrong and one does actually not need 40 green caps to do it."

Did you not see him dodge bone cage (an exploit) to minimize sanity loss? Also, he's using Bee Queen crown, another thing not listed in that minimal resources claim.

16 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

that's exactly how long the celestial champion fight takes as a character with no damage multipliers and a ham bat (no animation cancelling), and as Wes (like in the video) it takes 19 minutes, yet a quick search shows you repeatedly praising the celestial champion compared to fuelweaver

Yeah, because Celestial Champion is a triphasic boss you can revisit any time without it despawning. Three phases means it's not tedious because there's a great deal of variety in the fight, not despawning means you can leave if you need or want to and come back, and it's also not an overly stressful abomination of inventory management the whole time, unlike Fuelweaver. Klei's obvious design choices to minimize tedium in the fight and maximize the player's ability to not have to do it all in one go only proves my point that Fuelweaver takes too long if you fight him normally. It's also infinitely more forgiving since it won't despawn even if everyone dies, so you can just resurrect and continue (assuming you don't have your world set to one where it'll delete itself when everyone dies). Thank you for giving me another point to use to demonstrate how badly Fuelweaver needs a full rework like Crab King got. 

Next misleading claim, please.

[DegenerateFurry]

13 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

bone cage dodge wasn't known about in 2017

And yet he did it in the video. Here he is using corners and edges to dodge it by making it not properly form. He does that basically constantly throughout the whole fight. You didn't watch the video. I think you really need to take your time to consider other people's points and the evidence presented before you just assume you're right and send a one-liner to dismiss them, maybe you wouldn't have to delete comments in the future if you did that.

[Prinha]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Did you not see him dodge bone cage (an exploit) to minimize sanity loss?

A proof by counterexample is not technically a proof. It is merely a way of showing that a given statement cannot possibly be correct by showing an instance that contradicts a universal statement. For example, if you are trying to prove the statement "All cheesecakes are baked in Alaska." and you did not know whether to prove it by contrapositive or contradiction, all I would have to do is bake a cheesecake right in front of you here in Texas and then you would know that your efforts had been in vain.

You claimed that 

Quote

Well, let's see. 20 cooked cactus isn't enough, so you're gonna need at least 40 of those or green caps, probably more if you're not using a bee queen crown.

I myself used 12 Banana shakes and no Bee Queen crown in my last AFW fight. I linked a video that shows the fight with 20 Jerkies. It's a counterexample and proofs that your statement "AFW cannot be beaten with less than 40 green caps" is false.

Now you come up with qualifiers. He used an exploit! You played Wendy! This other person played Wolfgang! Every possible excuse just to not admit that tons of people kill AFW all the time with way less than 40 green caps. I have been away for a long time and am really new to all the rift stuff. Imagine my surprise when I saw on Jazzy's stream that the Brightshade Staff kills the Unseen hands without even having to see them! I asked how he did that in the chat. You know what people told me? They said "Yeah AFW is really easy for anyone now."

And yes I saw JoeshMo glitch the bone cage by going to the edge of gateway room. I'm not sure if that got patched or if it's still in the game. There was some discussion back then. I also saw him switch back and forth with the BQ crown to manage his sanity. Something I didn't even understand the first time I saw this video such a long time ago. I also saw that Wes is affected differently because he has less overall sanity so it takes less to top him up.

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yeah, and you're not moving while you're attacking Crab King. Did you know that things that move slowly will actually catch up to you and hit you if you're staying basically still? 

Use the momentum lmao

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yes you do? How else are you gonna deal with his minions, break his ice barrier, and prevent him from healing by yourself? Do you only ever play Wendy? Or, maybe Wolfgang with spiced volt goat jelly in spring? Weather pains have been a staple of Crab King fights since before his rework and they're still your best option for it. 

If you use F you can. I just tank and kite them with regular damage characters. Their atack rate is so slow to actually be problematic 

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, let's see. 20 cooked cactus isn't enough, so you're gonna need at least 40 of those or green caps, probably more if you're not using a bee queen crown. You'll use multiple lazy explorers (which, personally, I never actually use up in any other situation, so that's a big loss for me), at bare minimum two. A single weather pain? You're joking. It's at least 2 if you're really good and get lucky with spawns, probably more like 3. You need to use a nightmare amulet, and you'll use a substantial portion of it if not all of it. You also need multiple good armor pieces if you're gonna do any tanking, which you're heavily encouraged to do by the pitifully short windows you have to actually attack him instead of dealing with his BS. You're also better off using glass cutters instead of a ham bat to maximize your DPS during those tiny attack windows, so that's another cost if you're wanting to do the fight anywhere close to efficiently. Since you're probably tanking, you also need a bunch of healing food. There's also the shadow atrium, which is quite valuable post-rifts now and gets consumed. Once again, I am wondering if you only ever play Wolfgang with a max damage setup plus anim cancels, because your resource estimation indicates a far shorter fight than is possible otherwise

So a walk in the desert, killing a couple of goats and 1 single goose and childrens, the armors you already should have from the ruins and a couple of lazy explorer (why the hell you dont use them? Do you collect orange gems for nothing?), the BQ crown you get from getting the bundle recipe and a purple amulet are so much resources??? Are you aware this is a game about gathering resources and FW gives you an infinity armor, a shadow protection item, a way to control skeletons, rifts and reseting the ruins? If anything, the fight is cheap since you can get most of these by the 1st autumn 

[DegenerateFurry]

11 minutes ago, Prinha said:

A proof by counterexample is not technically a proof. It is merely a way of showing that a given statement cannot possibly be correct by showing an instance that contradicts a universal statement. For example, if you are trying to prove the statement "All cheesecakes are baked in Alaska." and you did not know whether to prove it by contrapositive or contradiction, all I would have to do is bake a cheesecake right in front of you here in Texas and then you would know that your efforts had been in vain.

You claimed that 

I myself used 12 Banana shakes and no Bee Queen crown in my last AFW fight. I linked a video that shows the fight with 20 Jerkies. It's a counterexample and proofs that your statement "AFW cannot be beaten with less than 40 green caps" is false.

Now you come up with qualifiers. He used an exploit! You played Wendy! This other person played Wolfgang! Every possible excuse just to not admit that tons of people kill AFW all the time with way less than 40 green caps. I have been away for a long time and am really new to all the rift stuff. Imagine my surprise when I saw on Jazzy's stream that the Brightshade Staff kills the Unseen hands without even having to see them! I asked how he did that in the chat. You know what people told me? They said "Yeah AFW is really easy for anyone now."

And yes I saw JoeshMo glitch the bone cage by going to the edge of gateway room. I'm not sure if that got patched or if it's still in the game. There was some discussion back then. I also saw him switch back and forth with the BQ crown to manage his sanity. Something I didn't even understand the first time I saw this video such a long time ago. I also saw that Wes is affected differently because he has less overall sanity so it takes less to top him up.

Yeah, the Brightshade Staff is a nice bandaid for the gaping, oozing, festering wound that is Fuelweaver. It'd still be nice if the boss you can reasonably access by spring didn't literally require you to beat a boss that you're just as reasonably going to fight at second autumn (assuming solo play in both cases) just so you can make Fuelweaver not suck. Especially since the Bone Helm is great against CC. Like, if both bosses have drops that counter each other, shouldn't they actually be counterparts? But no, Fuelweaver just has to be so much harder for no reason. 

12 banana shakes = ~27 green caps sanity-wise. Less than 40? Yes. Way less? Debatable. 

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

a couple of goats

You mean killing 3 herds of goats and getting 1 horn because of bad RNG?

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Use the momentum lmao

What momentum? You're telling me you're rowing while smacking Crab King?

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

If you use F you can. I just tank and kite them with regular damage characters. Their atack rate is so slow to actually be problematic 

You haven't fought him, otherwise you'd know the minions will shred your armor if you ignore them and you won't be doing much to hit Crab King when they're close to stunlocking you.

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

the BQ crown you get from getting the bundle recipe

You're assuming I'm going for Bee Queen first to get bundles if I'm doing the shadow route?

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

FW gives you an infinity armor, a shadow protection item, a way to control skeletons, rifts and reseting the ruins? If anything, the fight is cheap since you can get most of these by the 1st autumn 

Good drops don't make a good boss design. 

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

1 single goose and childrens

Doesn't give you enough for 3 weather pains. Even assuming best possible RNG, you are only getting 2.

[aidankocherhans]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

yes, and there is a difference between saying “I don't like the fight because it is too mechanically difficult for me to do with few resources” and “the fight is objectively designed poorly for solo players because it is impossible to do with few resources unless you're anim cancelling as wolfgang with spicy jelly”

 

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

this is what I'm talking about, someone lists a perfectly achievable list of resources you can spend in the fight with some amount of practice and you immediately jump to saying that they are min/maxing damage as a wolfgang with spicy jelly???

If you tell the average player to enter the fuelweaver fight with one weather pain and one lazy explorer, they are going to fail

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

 

 

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yes you do? How else are you gonna deal with his minions, break his ice barrier, and prevent him from healing by yourself? Do you only ever play Wendy? Or, maybe Wolfgang with spiced volt goat jelly in spring? Weather pains have been a staple of Crab King fights since before his rework and they're still your best option for it. 

The weather pain definitely isn't needed if you don't buff its healing with more than one gem. His healing gets cancelled if you just keep swinging. I don't know about the panflute thing though.

 

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yeah, and you're not moving while you're attacking Crab King. Did you know that things that move slowly will actually catch up to you and hit you if you're staying basically still? 

You can avoid the claws entirely by leading them away from crab king and circling back, you can lead them quite far away

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

break his ice barrier

If you don't put a lot of blue gems in the barrier breaks extremely fast

[Well-met]

i dont know why this topic shifts to AFW all the time, can we talk about ck pls

[Guille6785]

38 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

If you tell the average player to enter the fuelweaver fight with one weather pain and one lazy explorer, they are going to fail

ok? I doubt the average player has even encountered the fuelweaver

[aidankocherhans]

24 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

fan-favorite

???

Fuelweaver is the most divisive boss in the game, many players have a problem with it

22 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

ok? I doubt the average player has even encountered the fuelweaver

I don't think you understand what I mean by an average player. I don't mean noobs, I mean anyone who isn't exceptionally good at the complex and challenging combat in this game. Most players aren't going to truly master the combat, and fuelweaver pushes thing extra far with the complex inventory management and potential full reset of the fight through healing

[Prinha]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

2 banana shakes = ~27 green caps sanity-wise. Less than 40? Yes. Way less? Debatable. 

A reminder of what you actually claimed:

3 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, let's see. 20 cooked cactus isn't enough, so you're gonna need at least 40 of those or green caps, probably more if you're not using a bee queen crown

40 cooked cactus or green caps when using the bee queen crown and more than that when not. 

 

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Doesn't give you enough for 3 weather pains. Even assuming best possible RNG, you are only getting 2.

Use a construction amulet.

 

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You're assuming I'm going for Bee Queen first to get bundles if I'm doing the shadow route?

There is different setups for fighting AFW. I'm guessing (since I haven't tested this myself yet) that the most comfortable way is to do the celestial champion first and get the Brightshade Staff. Another highly useful item is the Bee Queen Crown. Could you DegenerateFurry please elaborate why you refuse to do BQ first before fighting AFW? I don't get it since you seem to hate the fight a lot. Why would you make it harder on yourself than it needs to be? And if Klaus dropped the crown instead would you also not use it? Or are you also not killing Klaus aswell?

[reddocc]

use gunpowder it's not illegal or imposible to craft, if you want a second round against the fuelweaber remember that the shadow thurible prevents bone cages.

[Echsrick]

try out some gun powder

[aidankocherhans]

3 hours ago, Pedro cc said:

use gunpowder it's not illegal or imposible to craft, if you want a second round against the fuelweaber remember that the shadow thurible prevents bone cages.

How much is needed?

[Masked Koopa]

10 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

no offense but I feel like you've committed so much to denouncing fuelweaver as a terrible boss that you now desperately want the boss to be bad, to the point that whenever people show you why the bossfight works you immediately make excuses to say that perfectly valid strategies and advice actually “don't count”

Id argue that if you need to be told that through external sources that's indicative of the boss being bad. If the expectation is for players to kite attacks like bone cage, then the game needs to communicate that in a way that is easily and immediately understandable.

[Anis5240]

43 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

How much is needed?

2 full stacks at best (1 full stack is 8000 damage total)

[Guille6785]

23 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

If the expectation is for players to kite attacks like bone cage

I never said that

[Guille6785]

17 minutes ago, Insaginary said:

@Guille6785 I'm hiding this since things are starting to get a bit off-topic, but:

  Hide contents

How would you feel about Klei tweaking Ancient Fuelweaver to where the bone cage attack is not only more consistent, but its range is also easier to identify, perhaps even having more leniency in dodging it in time? 

I know some people might be against it due to it potentially reducing some of the skill required to pull off the dodge; would you feel the same way?

 

yes, I've said in previous threads that I'd be 100% for the range being visible and personally I wouldn't even mind if the timing became a bit more lenient

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, Pedro cc said:

use gunpowder it's not illegal or imposible to craft, if you want a second round against the fuelweaber remember that the shadow thurible prevents bone cages.

2 hours ago, Echsrick said:

try out some gun powder

"It's a good fight, just skip it!"

Maybe not the best defense of it?

[WilsonHiggs]

This topic simply shows why people are okey with how weak are ink trio, BS and the mimic chest

Everything that requires an effort or is harder than a spider is tagged as a bad design 

[Anis5240]

6 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

This topic simply shows why people are okey with how weak are ink trio, BS and the mimic chest

Everything that requires an effort or is harder than a spider is tagged as a bad design 

again, survival game ≠ fight simulator game

this game (supposedly) not even need to have such convoluted fight system, but because almost everything useful was gotten via fighting things, klei ramped up the need for combat skills