Well-met Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 The old fight was reasonably learnable and only needed gem balance, claw health reduced and a rain conch drop to fix. This new one I have no idea what the hell is going on and it all feels like an amateur mod, especially the part where ice debris drain my frames by half bring back the old fight as a world option or something please. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 45 minutes ago, Insaginary said: @Guille6785 So, Ancient Fuelweaver's bone cage attack is 3 tiles long, correct? What's the cooldown between them? Does it get delayed if he ends up playing a different animation? Perhaps if I know more about the attack, I won't have to bother bringing a Lazy Explorer; the less items I need to swap around, the better. To be clear I've never told anyone to resort to bone cage dodging as some sort of remedy for the fight (mostly) requiring lazy explorers since I don't think at all that you need to do it to enjoy the fight, I think it's great that the fight has big resource management aspects and encourages tanking to use up less lazy explorer uses; I've only brought up bone cage dodging in the context that the fight has an incredible amount of depth and doesn't require you to use most of the things people think you need if you're skilled enough An entire fight without the lazy explorer is incredibly difficult and very few people can consistently do it outside of scripted fights for a variety of reasons; fuelweaver can cancel his own basic attack's endlag into a bone cage (which means it's not enough to simply react to the bone cage, you have to set him up in such a way that he does or doesn't cancel the endlag consistently), he has a certain priority for whether he bone cages before or after summoning hands/minions, certain attacks share a cooldown with the bone cage, etc. The exact numbers for bone cage are 12 units for him to cast it, 15 units for you to dodge it, and a 10 second cooldown, but numbers don't really mean anything unless you practice it yourself Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehun Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 I don't agree, new crabking is absolutely very fun and i would say easy now. Finally we don't live at times where the hardest thing about completing Celestial Champion quests and challenges is crabking fight... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 Simply said, people enjoy fights that have a certain rhythm to it. The seasonal bosses? Hit a few times, then dodge. Same with DF, Klaus, etc etc. Was it boring as hell? Yes, but it's learnable and you don't exactly have to think too much about it. With current CK, almost everything is a mess. 1 minute ago, kehun said: Finally we don't live at times where the hardest thing about completing Celestial Champion quests and challenges is crabking fight... too bad it still retains such status Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidankocherhans Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 2 hours ago, Prinha said: Hard disagree. Just this week I did FW with Wendy around day 60 using 1 Lazy Explorer 1 Nightmare Amulet 1 Thulecite Club 3 Thulecite Crowns 1 Jellybean, 1 Pierogie, 12 Banana Shakes 5 Spectral Cure All 1 Cursed Vexation and 20 Butterflies That's not even close to "a ton of ressources" and for this I get a full reset of the ruins with all their loot aswell as the shadowrift stuff. Calling that "a waste" seems totally out of proportion. Now let's have a look at FW fight on cooperative endless servers where people set up catapults and stuff to help with the fight. With like 3 people he goes down quickly with hardly any investment at all. I think FW is pretty much the hardest fight DST has to offer and shows the limits of what can be designed for multiplayer specifically. Crabking is kind of similar in that regard. Klei simply took the WoW approach to these fights by forcing the player to do several things at once. This is considerably easier when multiple people are assigned to do different tasks. At the same time they managed to keep the fights doable by just one person. FW has been the favourite fight in DST for many people. It's a difficult fight that challenges the player, allows for skill expression and has a very good reward. Not even close to worst design. Not in a world where Misery Toadstool exists. Okay but if you're character doesn't have aoe and you aren't really skilled at the fight you'll need 3 or 4 weather pains Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingle Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 27 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: To be clear I've never told anyone to resort to bone cage dodging as some sort of remedy for the fight requiring lazy explorers otherwise since I don't think at all that you need to do it to enjoy the fight, I think it's great the fight has resource management aspects and encourages tanking to use up less lazy explorer uses; I've only brought up bone cage dodging in the context that the fight has an incredible amount of depth and doesn't require you to use most of the things people think you need if you're skilled enough An entire fight without the lazy explorer is incredibly difficult and very few people can consistently do it outside of scripted fights for a variety of reasons; fuelweaver can cancel his own basic attack's endlag into a bone cage (which means it's not enough to simply react to the bone cage, you have to set him up in such a way that he does or doesn't cancel the endlag consistently), he has a certain priority for whether he bone cages before or after summoning hands/minions, certain attacks share a cooldown with the bone cage, etc. The exact numbers for bone cage are 12 units for him to cast it, 15 units for you to dodge it, and a 10 second cooldown, but numbers don't really mean anything unless you practice it yourself This explains better why I could never do the bone cage dodge consistently. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 1 hour ago, Guille6785 said: no offense but I feel like you've committed so much to denouncing fuelweaver as a terrible boss that you now desperately want the boss to be bad, to the point that whenever people show you why the bossfight works you immediately make excuses to say that perfectly valid strategies and advice actually “don't count” I want the boss to be fixed. I want them to make it good. It being poorly designed for solo players is a fact. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 6 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said: It being poorly designed for solo players is a fact. in before people say "but this is a multiplayer game, you suffering is your own doing hahahahahahah" Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidankocherhans Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 Crab king is the most fun and interesting boss to me, it requires more strategy than raw skill and I think it's pretty well balanced. Most aspects of the fight are only easy if you don't invest more than one gem into them. The only exception is the claws, which maybe is a flaw, but also green gems are the most rare and valuable gem type (and you need to spend 2 during the lunar questline) so it's not necessarily a problem that an excess of them makes the fight easier 2 hours ago, Crimson Hollow said: Why though? I'm kinda curious, because from my experience ck is more of a resource sink than fw most of the times What resources are you spending on crab king? All you really need is the panflute and either grass and twigs or boards (I don't use wood boats for it so I don't know how much wood it takes) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 15 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said: Crab king is the most fun and interesting boss to me, it requires more strategy than raw skill and I think it's pretty well balanced. Most aspects of the fight are only easy if you don't invest more than one gem into them. The only exception is the claws, which maybe is a flaw, but also green gems are the most rare and valuable gem type (and you need to spend 2 during the lunar questline) so it's not necessarily a problem that an excess of them makes the fight easier I dunno if I'd say Crab King is my favorite, but honestly, it's a huge improvement over what it used to be. Everything is manageable solo if you're using a variety of gems, even if you're actively trying to avoid taking hits as much as possible. I fought CK as Walter recently (I do my best to avoid getting hit as Walter), and once I started using freeze rounds to deal with his minions, it was really fun. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidankocherhans Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 32 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said: I want the boss to be fixed. I want them to make it good. It being poorly designed for solo players is a fact. At least make some things scale with player number, like Klaus, so it's reasonably manageable 1 hour ago, Well-met said: The old fight was reasonably learnable and only needed gem balance, claw health reduced and a rain conch drop to fix. This new one I have no idea what the hell is going on and it all feels like an amateur mod, especially the part where ice debris drain my frames by half bring back the old fight as a world option or something please. Was the old fight more learnable, or did you just already know it for a long time and haven't worked out the new fight yet? The fight is very clear to me now after a lot of trial and error (and many lost thulecite clubs) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADM Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 About one year later. He's still the monumental fall from grace I've described during beta rework, no redeeming factors. On some servers I don't have my mod to restore & improve his old fight I have to go trough this thing and it's disastrous... so much was lost. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonHiggs Posted March 9, 2025 Author Share Posted March 9, 2025 4 hours ago, Guille6785 said: all they had to do was improve on the original fight (which already had good ideas) and the fight would've been an objective upgrade, but instead they decided to scrap everything about the original fight including the things that worked so now its old problems were just replaced with new problems Despite most feedback would saying exactly what you are saying I loved the rowing version of that fight but they changed to a weird 50% land fight 4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said: Also, I don't see how you can ignore any of those? The towers nearest to your boat will damage you and it, Boards or grass boats? 4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said: the claws will swarm you if you don't deal with them What? They move at 2km/h... 4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said: and you kinda need to Weather Pain periodically between killing/freezing/sleeping his minions to prevent him from healing. What the hell? You dont need weathet pains at all neither pan flute 4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said: Anyway, the worst-ever boss design in the game is Fuelweaver, who actually wastes a ton of resources by design. The second-worst is OG pre-redesign Crab King. Reworked Crab King is decent. Hilarious but im not surprise when you have wrote the previous non sense What means tons of resources? Few sanity food, an armor, a lazy explorer and a weather pain? Srly, are you aware of how much you get from him? Is the best designed boss in the entire franchise and you only waste """"tons of resources """" if you are a new player using wes against him Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 19 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said: Boards or grass boats? I used a wooden one, so it cost me a few boards and patches. 20 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said: What? They move at 2km/h... Yeah, and you're not moving while you're attacking Crab King. Did you know that things that move slowly will actually catch up to you and hit you if you're staying basically still? 21 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said: What the hell? You dont need weathet pains at all neither pan flute Yes you do? How else are you gonna deal with his minions, break his ice barrier, and prevent him from healing by yourself? Do you only ever play Wendy? Or, maybe Wolfgang with spiced volt goat jelly in spring? Weather pains have been a staple of Crab King fights since before his rework and they're still your best option for it. 22 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said: What means tons of resources? Few sanity food, an armor, a lazy explorer and a weather pain? Srly, are you aware of how much you get from him? Well, let's see. 20 cooked cactus isn't enough, so you're gonna need at least 40 of those or green caps, probably more if you're not using a bee queen crown. You'll use multiple lazy explorers (which, personally, I never actually use up in any other situation, so that's a big loss for me), at bare minimum two. A single weather pain? You're joking. It's at least 2 if you're really good and get lucky with spawns, probably more like 3. You need to use a nightmare amulet, and you'll use a substantial portion of it if not all of it. You also need multiple good armor pieces if you're gonna do any tanking, which you're heavily encouraged to do by the pitifully short windows you have to actually attack him instead of dealing with his BS. You're also better off using glass cutters instead of a ham bat to maximize your DPS during those tiny attack windows, so that's another cost if you're wanting to do the fight anywhere close to efficiently. Since you're probably tanking, you also need a bunch of healing food. There's also the shadow atrium, which is quite valuable post-rifts now and gets consumed. Once again, I am wondering if you only ever play Wolfgang with a max damage setup plus anim cancels, because your resource estimation indicates a far shorter fight than is possible otherwise. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 27 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said: Once again, I am wondering if you only ever play Wolfgang with a max damage setup plus anim cancels, because your resource estimation indicates a far shorter fight than is possible otherwise. this is what I'm talking about, someone lists a perfectly achievable list of resources you can spend in the fight with some amount of practice and you immediately jump to saying that they are min/maxing damage as a wolfgang with spicy jelly??? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 1 minute ago, Guille6785 said: you immediately jump to saying that they are min/maxing damage as a wolfgang with spicy jelly??? some people just suck ass at fighting him, ok? and fw fight is the pinnacle of major messed-ups for most people. same with ck. just because you can deal with it doesn't mean everyone else can Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinha Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 34 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said: Well, let's see. 20 cooked cactus isn't enough, so you're gonna need at least 40 of those or green caps, probably more if you're not using a bee queen crown. You'll use multiple lazy explorers (which, personally, I never actually use up in any other situation, so that's a big loss for me), at bare minimum two. A single weather pain? You're joking. It's at least 2 if you're really good and get lucky with spawns, probably more like 3. You need to use a nightmare amulet, and you'll use a substantial portion of it if not all of it. You also need multiple good armor pieces if you're gonna do any tanking, which you're heavily encouraged to do by the pitifully short windows you have to actually attack him instead of dealing with his BS. You're also better off using glass cutters instead of a ham bat to maximize your DPS during those tiny attack windows, so that's another cost if you're wanting to do the fight anywhere close to efficiently. JoeshMo Wes vs AFW Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 1 minute ago, Anis5240 said: some people just suck ass at fighting him, ok? and fw fight is the pinnacle of major messed-ups for most people. same with ck. just because you can deal with it doesn't mean everyone else can yes, and there is a difference between saying “I don't like the fight because it is too mechanically difficult for me to do with few resources” and “the fight is objectively designed poorly for solo players because it is impossible to do with few resources unless you're anim cancelling as wolfgang with spicy jelly” Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinha Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 2 hours ago, aidankocherhans said: Okay but if you're character doesn't have aoe and you aren't really skilled at the fight you'll need 3 or 4 weather pains Fair enough. I can see how farming 4 WP in your first spring can be a problem. For me personally WPs are very expendable. I always end up with tons of excess gears aswell as down feathers. I use WPs to crack open stonefruit, harvest giant crops or turn spoiled fish into bone shards. I'm not saying that the AFW fight can't be heavy on ressources. I'm also aware that the fight is very unforgiving and that that can be unfun and annoying for people. Especially since it blocks shadowrifts if somebody doesn't want to enable them through the server setting. What I'm opposed to is that people claim that these ressources are "wasted". In my opinion these are an investment and I even think it's adaequate considering how much you get from the AFW. The other thing I'm against is that people claim the AFW is the worst designed boss objectively. If he was the worst designed boss then there wouldn't be so many people who really like that fight. BTW I'm not one of them. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 2 hours ago, aidankocherhans said: Okay but if you're character doesn't have aoe and you aren't really skilled at the fight you'll need 3 or 4 weather pains a bit late but using a jazzy video from 5 years ago for comparison, which I think is a perfectly fair benchmark since since he isn't some top tier uber elite gamer (and especially not 5 years ago), he only used: -Pretty much exactly 1 weather pain's worth of durability -About 80% of one lazy explorer -x4 cactus salad (160 HP) -About one thulecite suit and 1 crown -10% of a nightmare amulet -18 cooked cactus flesh, which isn't a lot but he could've gotten away with way less than that had he actually been using the bee queen crown well (he forgot to switch to it constantly and stood really far from fuelweaver's insanity aura throughout most of the fight) -1.5 thulecite clubs If I recorded a demonstration myself the furry guy would immediately say it doesn't count because I'm a gigatryhard sweat using exploits, so no, you don't need more than what WilsonHiggs listed Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 At the risk of dropping my gamer cred I'm gonna let everybody know that... I hadn't actually fought AFW by myself before a few days ago. It's true. Or at least, I think it is, I don't remember doing it by myself before. I always play this game on public servers so if I'm fighting him it's usually with 1 or 2 other people, but I'm usually not fighting him since you have to do that boring statue crap then do that boring wait-for-a-specific-day crap. But despite me only experiencing the fight a couple of times before, and me only experiencing it in multiplayer, and me not really having played the game at all for the past couple years, I still really enjoyed the fight. The only thing I would possibly change about it is making it more obvious whether you're progressing the fight or if you're letting him heal so much that you are locked into an indefinite duel where you will eventually run out of resources and die. It would help unfamiliar people adapt to the fight and learn what they're doing wrong. I ended up eating like 20 or 30 greencaps and all I had was I think 2 weather pains, 1 lazy explorer, 2 nightmare amulets (overprepared, I think I only actually used like 15% durability on a single one), a ham bat, some armor, and some healing salves. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenRadon Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 Well...his drops are not bad. For me, Great Depths Worm is the worst designer boss. his drops are too poor, and too boring to fight. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 1 minute ago, XenRadon said: For me, Great Depths Worm is the worst designer boss. he's not meant to be fought anyway, just run away for 2 screens then he's gone for good (until next next next next time) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 2 minutes ago, Insaginary said: I don't like the fight because it is too mechanically difficult for me to do with few resources. There you go, I said it. In your opinion, are there any possible solutions to this issue without jeopardizing the identity of Ancient Fuelweaver's fight? one solution is to just practice, I wasn't a fan of the fight the first few times I tried it either but the moment I got some practice in the entire thing clicked and it became easily my favorite fight in the game another is to simply experiment with different strategies, fuelweaver gives you an immense amount of freedom to go about the fight, maybe doing the fight as a wilson would be too difficult for you but wortox or willow or maybe even walter could shake things up enough with their perks to make the fight fun for your particular playstyle Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted March 9, 2025 Share Posted March 9, 2025 36 minutes ago, Prinha said: JoeshMo Wes vs AFW Fourteen minutes long. Need I say more? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164755-crab-king-is-the-worst-designer-boss/page/2/#findComment-1805755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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