Wendy is the same but a little stronger

[Koomin]

35 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Except all she got was chores for no real benefits if Wendy got more unique things her discourse would be different. And unique doesn't mean strong imagine if they went with new potions with new effects or new flowers in the sisturn for different effects... 

???? She literally got new potions with new effects and new flowers to put in the sisturn with different effects. She got exactly those things. These complaints are baffling at this point.

Not to mention whole new unique Abigail forms that are super creative and a bunch of other also creative stuff.  She has tons of new toys and unique changes.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

???? She literally got new potions with new effects and new flowers to put in the sisturn with different effects. She got exactly those things. These complaints are baffling at this point.

Not to mention whole new unique Abigail forms that are super creative and a bunch of other also creative stuff.  She has tons of new toys and unique changes.

Ahh yes potions that were both just do more damage  and one that makes her sisturn on the go.  Unlike effects that work as potions like maybe boss defense? Just because something was done there doesn't mean it was the right way to do it.  The Abby forms are cool but they still added tedium one being restricted only to a specific structure and time.  And the other requires constant maintenance for its usage. 

[JoeW]

Keep conversations about the game, and game content, and not about other forum members, their comments or anything else that is not on topic. 

Thanks.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

???? She literally got new potions with new effects and new flowers to put in the sisturn with different effects. She got exactly those things. These complaints are baffling at this point.

Not to mention whole new unique Abigail forms that are super creative and a bunch of other also creative stuff.  She has tons of new toys and unique changes.

I can’t play in Betas so until the update actually releases I can’t properly voice my opinions on it until I’ve actually PLAYED it. (Fingers Crossed the update arrives on Xbox tomorrow without any delay) 

But I can tell you at least what I’m thinking: I’m thinking that the new head gear thing that lets you wear it to be able to consume and use some of Abigail’s potions is probably going to be far too weak, and maybe even “niche” to the point that I don’t even use it… 

This thing requires taking up the Headslot, which is often occupied by- Football Helmet, (Brightshade helm if late game) Miners Hat for cave exploration, Eyebrella for Spring rainfall & summer overheating. And from what I’ve heard/read the Helmet losses it’s effects when you take it off (which will result in a TON of wasted Ectoherbology potions)

Klei Devs I hope at least considered that if this “Head Gear” is going to require this level of sacrifice on better head gear or whatever: That they would at least make Wendy’s Potion uses actually freaking cool.

Like for example, Wurt has a skill tree perk that lets her trade taking damage with “wetness” as extra armor, that’s really neat, but Wendy can apply an elixer to Abigail that makes a little damage prevention over shield Forcefield like shield thing apply around Abigail.

And I KNOW it’s been discussed to DEATH about Wendy already being OP and not needing any fun buffs, but when you consider that her new Head Gear has to occupy the same slot as some of the best armor, weather protection, and light sources in the game do.. maybe she SHOULD have something like her own little temporary Forcefield barrier around Wendy herself to avoid taking damage from a few hits? (similar to Wurts wetness.. but only when applying the shield potions onto her new hat)

For obvious reasons though it should only be useable on Wendy & Abigail and not other characters.

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, Thieta said:

I really hate how you constantly try to paint people who talk about wendy negatively - If this is what you convinced yourself to believe then go right ahead.

However, The truth is - Back when wendy first got her skill tree released she had the most informative and thought out forum posts that were constantly at the top of the forums. People wrote entire essays on how the entire skill tree could be changed, Lined it up with thematics in different cultures and how they respect/disrespect death/afterlife - Etc. I have yet to see any other character get such an in-depth detailed suggestion on how they can be improved by MULTIPLE people. Aside from people having a problem with wendy digging up graves (In some cultures this is extremely offensive, Fair, But they also didn't go too far with their anger at this.) all the forums were filled with insanely well thought out ideas on how to rework her - Some were way too ambitious but the amount of love she got from people who like playing her is insane. Don't besmirch that.

 

As for her current skill tree - The biggest issue that people have isn't that it isn't "Perfect" or "The most strongest op skill tree" or whatever you want to believe. The reality is - Her stuff is pretty tedious, Some feel like the skills to reduce all her farming (It's like what 7 points total? Pipspook and potion dupe) is a lot of points to dump into reducing a tedious farm for her that takes away from putting points in her other more meaningful skills, They are essentially filler and people dislike that, Rightfully so. They could've easily lowered this down to 3-4 points and made the skills for other stuff. In comparison Walter to get woby's dash/speed ability needs to put in like 6 skill points, 3 to fully unlock the speed and 3 for filler essentially - But his filler unlocks new gameplay for him, You can grab roaming retriever, furry forager, and hard headed. Allowing her to mine/chop, double your food harvests early game, and pick up items for you - That's 3 whole new gameplay abilities in exchange for you unlocking what you want. Same thing for other parts of walter's kit - For woby here woby there, You can craft rope more efficiently, get a portable drying rack, and get woby treats - 2 gameplay changes and 1 really good resource save (Rope crafting)

In comparison a lot of wendy's skills are just... Do this for cheaper instead of providing new things - Yes she has team spirit and other skills, But focus on the ones I am talking about.

Team spirit is a waste of a skill, Should just be basekit - Sisturn exists so... why do I have to spend a skill point to get access to something the sisturn already does? Especially when abby rarely dies anyway, It's a waste of a skill THAT I NEED TO USE to gain access to extra yield. so that's a waste of a skill point. the 3 points for pipspook quest, It includes nothing new to the gameplay - Instead it just makes it give more. that's 3 points. I would've much rather liked to use that 3 points in different ways to acquire glory (rotting petals, killing enemies, bigspook quest, etc) Sisturn perks - first 2 are worthless filler, petals last longer... really? Like they are so hard to get. Even lower sanity loss? great! So excited for it! all to gain access to the lunar blossom one... which half the time I wouldn't use personally. - Another waste of 2 skill points that introduce NOTHING NEW TO HER GAMEPLAY. 

Then she has to dump a lot of skill points for the stuff that she actually wants to use... in the end there is no variation to her skill tree because half of it doesn't provide any new or enticing gameplay. Where walter the majority of his skill tree unlocks something new for you - New ammo types, Slingshot customization, New woby interactions.... Over half of wendy's skill tree doesn't do that. 4 skills go to brews, 2 make em more efficient (nothing new), 3rd is for useless elixer. 3 goes to lunar/shadow (new but shadow is insanely tedious... has to be changed and if klei doesn't I pray someone makes a mod week 1 or else i'm never using shadow, it's just stupid.) 3 to team spirit (all new gameplay! it's great!) 2 for graves (Again to reduce farm... funny enough this nullifies her sisturn 1 effect since adorned graves spawn dark petals so makes the need for petals even less relevant...) but 1 skill will introduce smth new. this is basically all the stuff that is required for her skill tree. Now you are left with 3 points.... and your only options are reduce farming... or unlock the wreath.

So lets go over this in depth. for a total of 15 skill points.... wendy gets 9 new things, 6 of which are direct gameplay changes which alter how she plays the game. The team abilities, Wreath, Graves, and lunar/shadow forms.

In comparison... Walter for a total of 15 skill points.... gets 15 direct gameplay changes. (Technically he gets a LOT more than this, since if you count slingshot customization having 2-3 new items per upgrade) infact his lunar and shadow skills have 2 gameplay paths - One for woby and one for his slingshot... and slingshot gives 2 different ammos...

So in exchange for walter's skill points he gets access to AOE dmg, Slowdown, Woby foraging, Woby mining/Chopping, Electric dmg, Slingshot customization (10), port Campfire, drying rack, healing item, woby here/there, sprinting, teleport, etc etc etc. These are all new gameplay changes for him. It directly changes how he plays the game if he has the skill or not. for wendy her gameplay stays the same but now farming stuff is less tedious for over half her skill tree... it introduces nothing new or changes her gameplay.

This is what people have a problem with and this is why they want them to change the "Filler" skills in wendy's skill tree. Her tree quite literally has only 1 path for you to take and it leaves you with 3 skill points left to either reduce farm, get sisturn, or go for wreath.

For walter you can decide to focus slingshot, Focus woby, Split between both, You will get good value no matter which path you go on and it's a personal preference, His skill tree was done amazingly and they need to have that same quality for other characters aswell.

Just because walter was bad before is not an excuse for his to be better/worse. Just because wendy was good/favorite before is not an excuse for her skill tree to be better/worse. All skill trees need to be built with character synergy like walter's.

This overlooks the fact that his fixes are built into his tree something Wendy doesn't have to deal with as pre skill tree Wendy is already good. Walter has to invest into making his slingshot a viable weapon, Woby a mount competitive with mounts, and/or quality of life filler skill improvements. Again since Wendy is already good at base she gets less options like these this isn't unfair treatment each character got an appropriate amount of skills. Could some of Wendy's skills use more tweaks sure as I've mentioned previously the spoilage of her wreath should instead represent the remaining time a potion has left instead of the whole thing rotting for example. However there's a lot less imbalance between the skill trees than you'd think when you take into consideration the differences in their starting points.

[YouKnowWho142]

26 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This overlooks the fact that his fixes are built into his tree

This specifically. This is why characters who are deemed weak receive higher quality skill trees, to those characters it's not just a skill tree but a refresh

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

And I KNOW it’s been discussed to DEATH about Wendy already being OP and not needing any fun buffs, but when you consider that her new Head Gear has to occupy the same slot as some of the best armor, weather protection, and light sources in the game do.. maybe she SHOULD have something like her own little temporary Forcefield barrier around Wendy herself to avoid taking damage from a few hits? (similar to Wurts wetness.. but only when applying the shield potions onto her new hat)

For obvious reasons though it should only be useable on Wendy & Abigail and not other characters.

This, uh, also is how the skill already works.

[xhyom]

36 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This overlooks the fact that his fixes are built into his tree something Wendy doesn't have to deal with as pre skill tree Wendy is already good. Walter has to invest into making his slingshot a viable weapon, Woby a mount competitive with mounts, and/or quality of life filler skill improvements. Again since Wendy is already good at base she gets less options like these this isn't unfair treatment each character got an appropriate amount of skills. Could some of Wendy's skills use more tweaks sure as I've mentioned previously the spoilage of her wreath should instead represent the remaining time a potion has left instead of the whole thing rotting for example. However there's a lot less imbalance between the skill trees than you'd think when you take into consideration the differences in their starting points.

9 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

This specifically. This is why characters who are deemed weak receive higher quality skill trees, to those characters it's not just a skill tree but a refresh

Thinking about it now, the wording of these sentences would have made a lot of difference. If they had explained it that way instead of simply saying that Wendy is strong, I think it could have avoided a lot of headaches (and "loopholes" for bad faith too).

[DVGMedia]

13 minutes ago, xhyom said:

Thinking about it now, the wording of these sentences would have made a lot of difference. If they had explained it that way instead of simply saying that Wendy is strong, I think it could have avoided a lot of headaches (and "loopholes" for bad faith too).

Thing as though every character would do better with more options instead of it just being a slight buff to their existing kit. 

[YouKnowWho142]

11 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Thing as though every character would do better with more options instead of it just being a slight buff to their existing kit. 

I understand that view but I honestly hope characters like Maxwell don't get a ton of new perks from their skill tree. he can do a ton already and it's already bordering bloated. He just needs a couple things that are cool and thematic regardless of whether they're super viable and that's all i need

[xhyom]

6 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Thing as though every character would do better with more options instead of it just being a slight buff to their existing kit. 

This is a problem with all trees in this case, arguably, it's hard to say that Walter's tree or any other has more options and variety than Wendy's, you can get basically everything relevant, the difference is that the most relevant things he gets are stronger, because he's horrible without them. It's not really a choice to get the Woby and slingshot upgrades.

[DVGMedia]

21 minutes ago, xhyom said:

This is a problem with all trees in this case, arguably, it's hard to say that Walter's tree or any other has more options and variety than Wendy's, you can get basically everything relevant, the difference is that the most relevant things he gets are stronger, because he's horrible without them. It's not really a choice to get the Woby and slingshot upgrades.

I mean one of the biggest things that people wanted was to make Abby more customizable through the cistern and like that's one that a lot of people advocated for and was brought up really early in development. Clay did kind of do this but they did it very half-assed and only gave just a lunar blossom pedal thing to kind of simulate what they were wanting to do with the resting Abby at the cistern. Clay already kind of had it in their mind they didn't want to do certain things which is why they kind of went the way they did. However the suggestions that we've made kept those in mind and tried to make things a lot better for them some stuff that would please more people than what was given out

[Thieta]

7 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Walter needed a Willow-Tier skill tree. Wendy did not, so Wendy did not get it.

 

This is not a valid reasoning - As I said there is no excuse for a character to get absurdly higher quality of an update than another one.

If that was the case then - Swap the characters, If it's not right for wendy to get walter's treatment and walter to get wendy's - Then it's not right in the first place.

This reasoning will lead to a weird state of the game where the unpopular characters should get more quality updates than the popular ones - This update will most likely still leave walter at the bottom of the barrel for characters people want to play as, It will change slightly but I honestly don't believe he will leave the Bottom 3-4 characters.

So... should walter continue to get high quality updates and more popular ones like Wendy don't deserve this kind of quality? No. This reasoning is flawed from the get go.

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

There's two reasons. One of them is that most of the people complaining are not from the forums, they are angry brigaders who were sent here to spam the forums to try to get Klei to buff Wendy. Most of the people complaining about Wendy joined during this beta and only have posts about this beta because they were told to go make forum accounts. 

Where is the correlation for this? If you don't have any proof then do not make stuff up - I'm pretty sure I made my account this beta, If anything I started actively posting this beta. Doesn't mean anything, Noone told me to do any of that. I just regretted not saying anything/much during Wurt's beta.

People start making forum posts because it is about a character they care about... and they want their ideas/suggestions to be heard - Is not that big of a stretch.
Immedietly assuming that everyone, Or rather the majority of people, Who started making forum posts cause this beta was about a character they like... Is a big stretch.

7 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

That's the problem because of the handicap  and because players see another character get new toys and unique changes it feels unfair.

It's unfair because people promote an unfair mindset - Just cause a character is weak/unpopular is not an excuse for the quality of their updates to be of higher tier. As you said, All they had to do was introduce a few more gameplay changes for wendy. Them going around and making completely new gameplay mechanics for Walters entire skill tree is so much more work and effort compared to wendy (I mean they have to balance like 20+ new things cause of walter alone.) 

This attitude that "It's okay because walter was unpopular before" Is not right, It's flawed, It will lead to many kinds of problems later on where characters will get shafted in these skill trees cause "Out of these 3 this character should get all the quality and effort put into them, The other two don't need much." I say the same thing when people talk about wendy being "The most popular character so she deserves the best skill tree" - At the end of the day, The walter players are saying nothing different than the wendy players they apparently hate so bad. The only difference is "It's my character"

End of the day this the game we all play and I want to see the best for EVERY character. It doesn't matter if I personally (And most tbh) Will continue to play our favorites (IMC Wendy and Wurt) despite what updates happen. But there is nothing subtracting from the gameplay if wendy got a better and higher quality skill tree (I have not talked on wortox cause I honestly don't play or look at his stuff, But if his skill tree feels subpar then it needs to be fixed too!) Same way nothing is subtracting from walter having his current skill tree!

I am not asking for them to make walter's skill tree worse - So why are people adamant that Wendy's skill tree is fine? I want every character update to be good!
Does wendy having a better skill tree then she currently has make walter's worse in any kind of way? No? So why are people so fine with pushing the fact that Wendy's skill tree is ok!

It doesn't make sense to me - Majority of people here don't care about having a "Good game" They just want their Favorite character to be good - But do not put down other characters! If you wouldn't like it hearing that Walter's old skill tree is "Fine" "It's ok cause he isn't popular" "his skill tree doesn't need much" Then DO NOT push that onto others!
Can't you all see you are doing the same stuff to wendy?

The people here have quite literally done nothing different from eachother and watching everyone seperate into their little "Factions" of X character is disgusting.

Why can't we have a game where all the characters get high quality skill trees and gameplay? why are people advocating against that?

[Cheggf]

2 minutes ago, Thieta said:

Where is the correlation for this? If you don't have any proof then do not make stuff up - I'm pretty sure I made my account this beta, If anything I started actively posting this beta. Doesn't mean anything, Noone told me to do any of that. I just regretted not saying anything/much during Wurt's beta.

People start making forum posts because it is about a character they care about... and they want their ideas/suggestions to be heard - Is not that big of a stretch.
Immedietly assuming that everyone, Or rather the majority of people, Who started making forum posts cause this beta was about a character they like... Is a big stretch.

One of them literally explicitly told me verbatim that he was told to come to the Klei forums because Klei doesn't look at the Chinese websites.

[Koomin]

11 minutes ago, Thieta said:

... At the end of the day, The walter players are saying nothing different than the wendy players they apparently hate so bad. The only difference is "It's my character"...

This is a pretty wild statement to read after the last 3 months of wading through like 50 pages of physical threats and insults and comparisons to hated dictators from Wendy advocates, compared to normal gameplay suggestions from Walter feedback.  Logging onto the forums at some specific times of the day was welcoming horror into one's life.  They absolutely were different, regardless of the quality of the two trees (which I think are both great).

[DVGMedia]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This is a pretty wild statement to read after the last 3 months of wading through like 50 pages of physical threats and insults and comparisons to hated dictators from Wendy advocates, compared to normal gameplay suggestions from Walter feedback.  Logging onto the forums at some specific times of the day was welcoming horror into one's life.  They absolutely were different, regardless of the quality of the two trees (which I think are both great).

When you get beat down from everyone saying that your complaints don't matter It can really get discourraging. And some people won't take that. Did you read what was said? Anyone given this response of nah you should be fine with what we give you and then just dissmissed would cause immense frustration and anger.
This would happen if it were any other character.

[SilverSpoon]

14 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This is a pretty wild statement to read after the last 3 months of wading through like 50 pages of physical threats and insults and comparisons to hated dictators from Wendy advocates, compared to normal gameplay suggestions from Walter feedback.  Logging onto the forums at some specific times of the day was welcoming horror into one's life.  They absolutely were different, regardless of the quality of the two trees (which I think are both great).

It shouldn't be linked to "The Walter players", but at least what the forum residents did to Wendy Player, the nationality hate, say like "Wendy Player is a pedophile" and a towering mountain of insults, were no less than that.

And did Klei deal with the people who did it properly? Some were dealt, but there are still many people be left unchecked who are still doing it. So we can't just ignore that and blame the other side.

[Dear Community Manager, If they are allowed to "accusations Wendy Player of crimes" but my "accusations of anti-Wendy Player crimes" are not allowed, please at least tell me why.]

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

When you get beat down from everyone saying that your complaints don't matter It can really get discourraging. And some people won't take that. Did you read what was said? Anyone given this response of nah you should be fine with what we give you and then just dissmissed would cause immense frustration and anger.
This would happen if it were any other character.

 

7 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

It shouldn't be linked to "The Walter players", but at least what the forum residents did to Wendy Player, the nationality hate, say like "Wendy Player is a pedophile" and a towering mountain of insults, were no less than that.

[Dear Community Manager, If they are allowed to "accusations Wendy Player of crimes" but my "accusations of anti-Wendy Player crimes" are not allowed, please at least tell me why.]

Defending the horribleness and acting like it was even remotely close the other way around is certainly a choice.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

 

Defending the horribleness and acting like it was even remotely close the other way around is certainly a choice.

I am not defending the actions that they took. maybe you should take a look and understand why people get angry. And why people may end up doing threats.

I don't condone violence on others But you should use this as a way to learn how people work.

 When a person gets mad Its not just for no reason. And just telling them not to be mad and Take it Is just an easier way to piss them off.

[SilverSpoon]

6 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Defending the horribleness and acting like it was even remotely close the other way around is certainly a choice.

What I'm saying is, "It's not about heroes, it's about Trolls vs.Trolls." Both are bad.

Having said that, Klei is a who be caught up in this, but they still has responsible as long as they favor and at large people to continue trolling Wendy Player.

[Koomin]

3 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I am not defending the actions that they took. maybe you should take a look and understand why people get angry. And why people may end up doing threats.

I don't condone violence on others But you should use this as a way to learn how people work.

 When a person gets mad Its not just for no reason. And just telling them not to be mad and Take it Is just an easier way to piss them off.

I don't really have any interest in whether the poorly behaved and insulting people got what they want, especially after that thread with the horrible comment screenshots that was posted a few days ago.  

It seems that most of the people that behaved reasonably and actually tested things out in good faith appreciate the tree and think it is well done (understand you do not, and I'm intentionally not saying everyone).  

This seems more like a lesson in "some people are unreasonable and behave poorly, and maybe paying more attention to them is the wrong choice".

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This seems more like a lesson in "some people are unreasonable and behave poorly, and maybe paying more attention to them is the wrong choice".

Thing is though back on topic is that the way klei went with wendys skill tree was basiclaly just safe and boring.
you would think that doing more of the same would not piss people off. But by comparring the tree to thers within the beta I can see why some people wanted a more vast and engaging skill tree than the few toys that were given.
 and those new toys were also completely restrictive on the player not even adhering to good game design.  More so appealing to thematics instead.
But thematics doesn't always mean a game that feels good to play.
 and many don't like the way the skill tree makes the game play for wendy.
It does reduce some tedium in some spots but it adds more into others.
 

[Siren11]

10 minutes ago, Koomin said:

It seems that most of the people that behaved reasonably and actually tested things out in good faith appreciate the tree and think it is well done (understand you do not, and I'm intentionally not saying everyone).  

Tbh I’m not sure I’ve seen any Wendy mains who are really happy. I think a lot of people are probably just burned out on every Wendy thread getting derailed and locked. It doesn’t seem worth trying to make any sort of argument for improving Wendy’s skill tree when everything will just be drowned out and lost.

I’m just ready for the update. Maybe Klei will still be willing to make some of the small changes Wendy needs later on.

[somethin]

4 minutes ago, Siren11 said:

I’m just ready for the update. Maybe Klei will still be willing to make some of the small changes Wendy needs later on.

She might get some light tweaks like when Wormwood not becoming drowsy from moon shrooms anymore, which actually took me by surprise honestly, but I wouldn't expect huge changes.

[Siren11]

Just now, somethin said:

She might get some light tweaks like when Wormwood not becoming drowsy from moon shrooms anymore, which actually took me by surprise honestly, but I wouldn't expect huge changes.

Yeah, that’s why I said small changes. One of the things I’m hoping for is improvements to haunt RNG. I’ve been hoping for that since November, when Klei talked about tweaking it. I don’t remember whose suggestion it was, but I also really liked the idea of having decorated graves generate Mourning Glories instead of Evil Flowers. That was originally meant to go with Wendy’s Dark Petals skills, but those are gone (and we can get evil flowers way faster by haunting anyways). It just kinda bugs me that it never got changed.

(Blessed Sisturn III is still… weird, but I’m not holding my breath there. Maybe the nerfed healing could be tweaked a little?)

I know people still have opinions about Wendy’s affinities as well, but that might be asking too much at this point.