Wendy is the same but a little stronger

[Koomin]

20 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Thing is though back on topic is that the way klei went with wendys skill tree was basiclaly just safe and boring.
you would think that doing more of the same would not piss people off. But by comparring the tree to thers within the beta I can see why some people wanted a more vast and engaging skill tree than the few toys that were given.
 and those new toys were also completely restrictive on the player not even adhering to good game design.  More so appealing to thematics instead.
But thematics doesn't always mean a game that feels good to play.
 and many don't like the way the skill tree makes the game play for wendy.
It does reduce some tedium in some spots but it adds more into others.
 

My main issue with this is that I think her skill tree is not safe and boring at all.  In terms of creativity and fun new stuff it's easily in the upper category.  They made whole entirely new Abigail forms that completely change gameplay, added a ton of commands, new potions, and new followers, and a bunch of other stuff like the player tag (which was anything but safe). Wormwood, Wolfgang, Wilson and Wigfrid are pretty obviously less interesting and more safe, and a lot of the other ones including Wortox and stuff are about the same level and could go either way.  I just don't agree with this whole thing about saying it was uninspired and safe, which seems to largely stem from comparing it specifically to Walter, who absolutely needed it, and ignoring all the other skill trees. 

[SilverSpoon]

58 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I don't really have any interest in whether the poorly behaved and insulting people got what they want, especially after that thread with the horrible comment screenshots that was posted a few days ago.  

Do you really think that screenshot you mention is the whole of Wendy Player on Earth? Cherry-picking "the poorly behaved and insulting people" and justifying the release of Wendy's not enough skill tree means that many other benignant Wendy players will disappointment the game and may leave the game.

Klei is not the kind of game company that will betray its players for such personal emotions.

[DVGMedia]

14 minutes ago, Koomin said:

My main issue with this is that I think her skill tree is not safe and boring at all.  In terms of creativity and fun new stuff it's easily in the upper category.  They made whole entirely new Abigail forms that completely change gameplay, added a ton of commands, new potions, and new followers, and a bunch of other stuff like the player tag (which was anything but safe). Wormwood, Wolfgang, Wilson and Wigfrid are pretty obviously less interesting and more safe, and a lot of the other ones including Wortox and stuff are about the same level and could go either way.  I just don't agree with this whole thing about saying it was uninspired and safe, which seems to largely stem from comparing it specifically to Walter, who absolutely needed it, and ignoring all the other skill trees. 

Her new forms is just one thats retextured to show that you have a powerup enabled.

And the other one is actually different. and intented to make a different playstyle. Which is not bad Im not hating on it.
But like what else really is different that adds new playstyles for wendy?
An item thats worse than moggles? And Ghost army?

Team spirit is the only one that matches something new that could be comprable But if anything that should have just been basekit.

[YouKnowWho142]

8 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Her new forms is just one thats retextured to show that you have a powerup enabled.

And the other one is actually different. and intented to make a different playstyle. Which is not bad Im not hating on it.
But like what else really is different that adds new playstyles for wendy?
An item thats worse than moggles? And Ghost army?

Team spirit is the only one that matches something new that could be comprable But if anything that should have just been basekit.

I think it's reductive to expect a lot of different playstyles out of Wendy. This idea of skill trees introducing several different playstyles isn't even consistent on other characters either. Woodie is a praised skill tree and the only thing that skill tree actually did was fix major issues with the moose form and lets you cancel out his only two minor downsides. The fact alone that I can sit on several stacks of mourning glory and 15-20 of each elixir after minimal grinding to use in each boss fight instantly makes Wendy much more approachable, increases her skill, and makes her significantly less tedious. 

Also, I think Wendy's "powerup" on the shadow affinity is fine. You can adopt a different playstyle with Abi through the lunar affinity or double down on what already makes Abi so strong on shadow. It makes complete sense why shadow isn't anything game changing.

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I think it's reductive to expect a lot of different playstyles out of Wendy. This idea of skill trees introducing several different playstyles isn't even consistent on other characters either. Woodie is a praised skill tree and the only thing that skill tree actually did was fix major issues with the moose form and lets you cancel out his only two minor downsides. The fact alone that I can sit on several stacks of mourning glory and 15-20 of each elixir after minimal grinding to use in each boss fight instantly makes Wendy much more approachable, increases her skill, and makes her significantly less tedious. 

Also, I think Wendy's "powerup" on the shadow affinity is fine. You can adopt a different playstyle with Abi through the lunar affinity or double down on what already makes Abi so strong on shadow. It makes complete sense why shadow isn't anything game changing.

I think it was important to adjust the way the tree was set up though. have it be three branches.
pipspooks and potions should be intertwined since they are both part of the same thing. having 2 branches seperate for both was just redundant and a waste of points.

in doing so could have added new custom potions as well as making the wreath be the end of it allowing you to use all this custom stuff  other than just the affinities and ghastly experience.

Sisturn could have had its own branch to create custom abbys with the flowers the world has and actually use the perks in the branch to its fullest by ensureing the flowers wendy gathers to modify abby don't rot.

And then there is the abby branch which holds team and the affinities.

There was a way to make something that allowed players to experiment and create their own way the character plays.
While not just making 1 fourth of the tree potions. Its about as egrigious as wilsons torch toss. but slightly more valuable.

leaving the way abby should be would have been better in the players hands because then they can make an active attempt at using abby in new fun ways Instead of just Oh i can farm glorys more for the 3 potions abby always uses

 

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

Her new forms is just one thats retextured to show that you have a powerup enabled.

And the other one is actually different. and intented to make a different playstyle. Which is not bad Im not hating on it.
But like what else really is different that adds new playstyles for wendy?
An item thats worse than moggles? And Ghost army?

Team spirit is the only one that matches something new that could be comprable But if anything that should have just been basekit.

The expectations here just seems way out of whack, maybe based on Walter needing almost a complete redesign to convince anyone to play him, and it being packaged as a skill tree? 

Maybe go read through what most of the other skill trees have been?  For example, half of Wormwood's is about base decoration, he has two skills that each make mushrooms grow 10% faster, and a bunch of other similar level ones. The expectations about redesigning the character entirely or whatever people were asking for were just not realistic or in line with what skill trees have been. Skill trees also add "stuff that should have been base kit" all the time.

In terms of realistic expectations here that match what skill trees are, it was unique and creative and adds new stuff and is in the upper tier.  Ghost army is fun, you have a ton of new control over Abigail, she is harder to kill, you can make grave city, the hat does way more than just be moggles (in fact just saying it is worse moggles is pretty emblematic of not trying out new types of gameplay), the new forms change up gameplay a lot (including shadow Abigail), and resource and potion crafting is way easier to manage.  It's all around pretty cool and creative and new.

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Woodie is a praised skill tree

Please note that Woodie's skill tree was released over a year and a half ago and was a novelty at the time, but today there are fewer parts of Woodie's skill tree that haven't been affected by power creep. As a Woodie main, the current skill tree needs buffs.

If Woodie's skill tree were to be released in its current state today, people would probably be very unhappy. His skill tree is no excuse for lack of Wendy's skill tree.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

 

Maybe go read through what most of the other skill trees have been?  For example, half of Wormwood's is about base decoration, he has two skills that each make mushrooms grow 10% faster, and a bunch of other similar level ones. The expectations about redesigning the character entirely or whatever people were asking for were just not realistic or in line with what skill trees have been. Skill trees also add "stuff that should have been base kit" all the time.

I know I wanted My Abby glows brighter upgrade.
And thats not a lie
I wanted a tree that added utility. wormwoods tree is great because his tree combines the 2 types of players that play him. An offensive glass cannon  And also base mommy. Wormwood does a skill tree perfectly.
 

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

An offensive glass cannon

I main wormwood, I can somewhat say Abigail can be considered a glass cannon but do not try and convince me that wormwood is even remotely a glass cannon

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I main wormwood, I can somewhat say Abigail can be considered a glass cannon but do not try and convince me that wormwood is even remotely a glass cannon

Its just that his healing is not the fastest and need to rely on slower healing methods like salve and poultice.
Thats more so the reasoning.

[Koomin]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

I know I wanted My Abby glows brighter upgrade.
And thats not a lie
I wanted a tree that added utility. wormwoods tree is great because his tree combines the 2 types of players that play him. An offensive glass cannon  And also base mommy. Wormwood does a skill tree perfectly.
 

Yes I guess that's my point.  Wormwood's is way more safe.  Saying that Wendy's is too safe and uncreative is odd, especially since you seem to be a fan of the safe Wormwood one, and Wendy's is anything but safe and uncreative.

For what it's worth I would totally support a brighter Abigail potion to replace combat upgrade #456.

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

Its just that his healing is not the fastest and need to rely on slower healing methods like salve and poultice.
Thats more so the reasoning.

Then you especially misunderstand what a glass cannon actually is. He has no damage multiplier, he relies on speed, and his bramble armor still procs more often if you let yourself be hit than to land 3-4 attacks without being hit which if anything encourages him to tank. Most of his healing is healing over time but has health is average, and that's excluding healing salves and poultices which have always been viable if you didn't mind making them. He is one of the farthest things from a glass cannon in the entire game

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Koomin said:

Yes I guess that's my point.  Wormwood's is way more safe.  Saying that Wendy's is too safe and uncreative is odd, especially since you seem to be a fan of the safe Wormwood one, and Wendy's is anything but safe and uncreative.

For what it's worth I would totally support a brighter Abigail potion to replace combat upgrade #456.

she has like 13 skills mostly dedicated to potions.
Thats half of her tree already.

I think the best bet is just adding 2 points to sisturn and make it so that different flowers give abby different effects. So that way its at least a skill tree line people would want to pick

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Then you especially misunderstand what a glass cannon actually is. He has no damage multiplier, he relies on speed, and his bramble armor still procs more often if you let yourself be hit than to land 3-4 attacks without being hit which if anything encourages him to tank. Most of his healing is healing over time but has health is average, and that's excluding healing salves and poultices which have always been viable if you didn't mind making them. He is one of the farthest things from a glass cannon in the entire game

well worm is a setup character really.  Worms got some dps.

 

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

well worm is a setup character really.  Worms got some dps.

 

Setup is more reasonable, apologies for taking offense
Not every character is a glass cannon though

[somethin]

27 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

wormwoods tree is great because his tree combines the 2 types of players that play him. An offensive glass cannon

The 'glass' I can understand. The cannon part? Don't make me laugh. Even with BS sword with the vines that hit half the time he doesn't come close to what most combat orient character can do. At peak dps he can juuuust barely knock down dfly, and all it take is 'just' 2 saladmanders, BS sword with very good rng and animation canceling. WW tree is also not great, just ok. One branch is literally useless unless you're planning to craft a bunch of plants, but then you could just respec the skill anyway.

[_mylilsunshine_]

40 minutes ago, somethin said:

The 'glass' I can understand. The cannon part? Don't make me laugh. Even with BS sword with the vines that hit half the time he doesn't come close to what most combat orient character can do. At peak dps he can juuuust barely knock down dfly, and all it take is 'just' 2 saladmanders, BS sword with very good rng and animation canceling. WW tree is also not great, just ok. One branch is literally useless unless you're planning to craft a bunch of plants, but then you could just respec the skill anyway.

youtube demonstration really sets the expectation too high and too unrealistic. not many of your casual peeps will play wormwood like a cannon, let alone setting up everything to stun dfly. wormwood can be used as a cannon, but that's not what he was meant for, nor what people will use him for.

[AliceShiki]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But I can tell you at least what I’m thinking: I’m thinking that the new head gear thing that lets you wear it to be able to consume and use some of Abigail’s potions is probably going to be far too weak, and maybe even “niche” to the point that I don’t even use it… 

It's a single skill tree perk with 7 different effects or so. Each effect being weak was absolutely on purpose.

Its main use is giving you easily available night-vision that can be shared with other players, either way. The other uses are indeed more niche.

And of course, you'd be using it together with Log Suits, because you don't wanna unequip it and lose the Night Vision.

3 hours ago, Thieta said:

This is not a valid reasoning - As I said there is no excuse for a character to get absurdly higher quality of an update than another one.

If that was the case then - Swap the characters, If it's not right for wendy to get walter's treatment and walter to get wendy's - Then it's not right in the first place.

This reasoning will lead to a weird state of the game where the unpopular characters should get more quality updates than the popular ones - This update will most likely still leave walter at the bottom of the barrel for characters people want to play as, It will change slightly but I honestly don't believe he will leave the Bottom 3-4 characters.

So... should walter continue to get high quality updates and more popular ones like Wendy don't deserve this kind of quality? No. This reasoning is flawed from the get go.

Saying someone's point isn't valid because you disagree with it doesn't make much sense.

This has nothing to do with something being "right", it's plain and simply logical game design behavior.

Devs look at their characters, one character sees a lot of play, another sees basically no play... Of course the character that isn't played requires a bigger rework. This is a no-brainer. The devs don't care about what is "right", they care about numbers. If a character has very low play rate, the character has a problem and requires fixing. Otherwise they failed at delivering a good product with that character.

And if we look at it from a simple financial perspective, devs want to sell skins. If they make a set of skins for all characters, they want all skins to be bought a good amount. If a character sees basically no play, than this character's skins will sell way less than the others, which is simply bad for their business.

So yes, unpopular characters absolutely should get way way way more attention from devs than the popular ones in terms of rebalancing and the like (in terms of making new unique skins for the character though, it's the opposite. Popular characters should receive all the love for unique skins while the unpopular characters should be ignored until they stop being unpopular). Because it's important for the game's long-term longevity that the unpopular characters stop being unpopular and become fun.

Obviously, devs aren't expecting characters to have a perfectly distributed play rate. Some characters will always be more popular than others... But it makes no sense for devs to give the same amount of attention to a popular and to an unpopular character. The unpopular character absolutely needs way more love and attention from the devs so that they can figure out what makes the character boring and fix that to make the character fun.

While popular characters will just get more of what they already had. They were already popular anyways, so they don't need much.

[link6566]

You wouldn't say that if you've ever played with Wendy's skill tree. Most of Wendy's skills are useless and cumbersome. The most useful update is the ability to feed beefalos while riding them, which was brought by Walter.

[Koomin]

12 minutes ago, link6566 said:

You wouldn't say that if you've ever played with Wendy's skill tree. Most of Wendy's skills are useless and cumbersome. The most useful update is the ability to feed beefalos while riding them, which was brought by Walter.

We have played with her skill tree, and a lot of us like it as is.  Declaring that we haven't tried it is odd.

[YouKnowWho142]

22 minutes ago, link6566 said:

You wouldn't say that if you've ever played with Wendy's skill tree. Most of Wendy's skills are useless and cumbersome. The most useful update is the ability to feed beefalos while riding them, which was brought by Walter.

I'm literally doing my second Wendy skill tree run right now, I actually just defeated celestial champion like an hour ago, it was unironically one of the most fun cc fights I've had in a good while
Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean that everyone else can't, the skill tree fixes the issues I personally have with Wendy (who was already mostly fine) so I like it

[SilverSpoon]

24 minutes ago, Koomin said:

We have played with her skill tree, and a lot of us like it as is.

I don't like it as is.

Achievement Unlocked!
[You are minority]

[YouKnowWho142]

2 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I don't.

i saw your edit, that was very rude

chill out, let them enjoy the skill tree, I understand you're frustrated that it isn't what you want but it goes without saying that nobody should be taking it out on others

ah, and you brought it back, wonderful

[SilverSpoon]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

i saw your edit, that was very rude

chill out, let them enjoy the skill tree, I understand you're frustrated that it isn't what you want but it goes without saying that nobody should be taking it out on others

ah, and you brought it back, wonderful

Yup, Fixed.

...Do you guys make what kind of posts and then you say other people's posts are "very rude" and "no one should take their anger out on others"? Seriously?

[link6566]

30 minutes ago, Koomin said:

我们玩过她的技能树，很多人都很喜欢它。说我们还没试过，这很奇怪。

You said that a lot of people like Wendy's skill tree. I suggest you launch a poll on the forum to see how many people like it and how many people don't.

[Koomin]

9 minutes ago, link6566 said:

You said that a lot of people like Wendy's skill tree. I suggest you launch a poll on the forum to see how many people like it and how many people don't.

Last time there was a poll everyone of all opinions declared the poll worthless, so no that seems like a waste of time.  People that were unhappy with Wendy's skill tree said it was biased and useless because people were tired of the changes and annoyed by Wendy posts so were voting in spite, and people that were happy with Wendy's skill tree said it was biased and useless because of brigading in support of Wendy buffs, and overall no one cared about the poll results.  

(If you are interested in the result though, the majority voted to release the Wendy tree as it currently is)