Wendy is the same but a little stronger

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

(If you are interested in the result though, the majority voted to release the Wendy tree as it currently is)

Nope

[Big Bugly]

I've never posted on the forums before, I didn't even know there was one for a while, and I've only made this account since this particular thread has struck a chord (ha).

I believe Thieta has it right: the quality of a characters skill tree should not be dependent on their popularity or strength, and that Wendy's feels lackluster due to the little it adds to her gameplay. Many of her skills feel like they could have been cut, merged together, or been fleshed out more. There are interesting ideas, fun gameplay directions to add to her, but none of it seems fully developed.

Without having trawled the forums, I can't say whether or not people have been taking this too seriously or not: but this thread has had people mention others threatening the developers, or others, because of the turbulent direction of Wendy's skill tree. People shouldn't feel more than simply frustrated if a character in a (moddable) game they enjoy receives a, in their opinion, bad update. Trolls are trolls, however, no matter what flag they're carrying at the time.

I hope Klei can ignore these people, and I do hope Wendy's skill tree becomes more interesting in the future, whether it's the next beta update or some time later.

[Mysterious box]

8 hours ago, Thieta said:

This is not a valid reasoning - As I said there is no excuse for a character to get absurdly higher quality of an update than another one.

If that was the case then - Swap the characters, If it's not right for wendy to get walter's treatment and walter to get wendy's - Then it's not right in the first place.

This reasoning will lead to a weird state of the game where the unpopular characters should get more quality updates than the popular ones - This update will most likely still leave walter at the bottom of the barrel for characters people want to play as, It will change slightly but I honestly don't believe he will leave the Bottom 3-4 characters.

So... should walter continue to get high quality updates and more popular ones like Wendy don't deserve this kind of quality? No. This reasoning is flawed from the get go.

 

8 hours ago, Thieta said:

It's unfair because people promote an unfair mindset - Just cause a character is weak/unpopular is not an excuse for the quality of their updates to be of higher tier. As you said, All they had to do was introduce a few more gameplay changes for wendy. Them going around and making completely new gameplay mechanics for Walters entire skill tree is so much more work and effort compared to wendy (I mean they have to balance like 20+ new things cause of walter alone.) 

This attitude that "It's okay because walter was unpopular before" Is not right, It's flawed, It will lead to many kinds of problems later on where characters will get shafted in these skill trees cause "Out of these 3 this character should get all the quality and effort put into them, The other two don't need much." I say the same thing when people talk about wendy being "The most popular character so she deserves the best skill tree" - At the end of the day, The walter players are saying nothing different than the wendy players they apparently hate so bad. The only difference is "It's my character"

End of the day this the game we all play and I want to see the best for EVERY character. It doesn't matter if I personally (And most tbh) Will continue to play our favorites (IMC Wendy and Wurt) despite what updates happen. But there is nothing subtracting from the gameplay if wendy got a better and higher quality skill tree (I have not talked on wortox cause I honestly don't play or look at his stuff, But if his skill tree feels subpar then it needs to be fixed too!) Same way nothing is subtracting from walter having his current skill tree!

I am not asking for them to make walter's skill tree worse - So why are people adamant that Wendy's skill tree is fine? I want every character update to be good!
Does wendy having a better skill tree then she currently has make walter's worse in any kind of way? No? So why are people so fine with pushing the fact that Wendy's skill tree is ok!

It doesn't make sense to me - Majority of people here don't care about having a "Good game" They just want their Favorite character to be good - But do not put down other characters! If you wouldn't like it hearing that Walter's old skill tree is "Fine" "It's ok cause he isn't popular" "his skill tree doesn't need much" Then DO NOT push that onto others!
Can't you all see you are doing the same stuff to wendy?

The people here have quite literally done nothing different from eachother and watching everyone seperate into their little "Factions" of X character is disgusting.

Why can't we have a game where all the characters get high quality skill trees and gameplay? why are people advocating against that?

The thing is what your asking for would be unfair as I already said it's not a Walter gets more because he's unpopular situation it's a half his skill tree is based around fixing his base kit so giving Wendy a skill tree that treats her as if she also has this problem creates a unfair imbalance then the question shifts to why does Walter have to spend additional skill points into skills that should have been baseline upgrades by way of a refresh? So then you end up with a process where a good amount of his tree made to fix his base kit is now added to the base kit and he needs another new half of his tree to be equal with Wendy again. Technically it could have been addressed by doing a second round of refreshes outside of the skill trees then doing the skill trees after but I think some people would lose their minds if that ever became the plan. It's also not just a thing exclusive to these skill trees if every character is treated in this way that means even a character like Maxwell has to be treated this way. Different characters need different levels of care we can't just look at characters who are flawed and characters who are completely fine and go yep they both need the exact same solution because they don't. Again that's not to say that Wendy doesn't have some remaining tweaks that could be done but overall she got a pretty good skill tree as is and especially compared to Wolfgang for example who definitely got the short end of the stick.

Even then I feel like what Wendy got is really under appreciated like take team spirit for example "attack at" means Wendy now has access to a free projectile attack of sorts more or less giving Wendy the old use of the slingshot and then there's haunt while there are various haunt interactions a key one that seems to not really be talked about is how Abigail can haunt hounds for very easy gem access at hound mounds even early on. Even if not in the way some may have wanted these are two gameplay changing skills as easier gem access means Wendy can lean harder on magic or even mass produce higher tier gems when paired with Wilson.

14 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But I can tell you at least what I’m thinking: I’m thinking that the new head gear thing that lets you wear it to be able to consume and use some of Abigail’s potions is probably going to be far too weak, and maybe even “niche” to the point that I don’t even use it… 

This thing requires taking up the Headslot, which is often occupied by- Football Helmet, (Brightshade helm if late game) Miners Hat for cave exploration, Eyebrella for Spring rainfall & summer overheating. And from what I’ve heard/read the Helmet losses it’s effects when you take it off (which will result in a TON of wasted Ectoherbology potions)

Klei Devs I hope at least considered that if this “Head Gear” is going to require this level of sacrifice on better head gear or whatever: That they would at least make Wendy’s Potion uses actually freaking cool.

The head gear's effects are a full screen visibility for a cheaper cost than moggles stored via non perishing potions, 2 hp regens, 2 shields that prevent damage every 10 seconds, the ability to ignore slowdown area hazards, and a potion to remove the death penalty. If they just made it so the potion's effects stayed on the wreath when you removed it and put it back on it'd be completely fine for what it does really.

[CremeLover]

21 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The thing is what your asking for would be unfair as I already said it's not a Walter gets more because he's unpopular situation it's a half his skill tree is based around fixing his base kit so giving Wendy a skill tree that treats her as if she also has this problem creates a unfair imbalance then the question shifts to why does Walter have to spend additional skill points into skills that should have been baseline upgrades by way of a refresh? So then you end up with a process where a good amount of his tree made to fix his base kit is now added to the base kit and he needs another new half of his tree to be equal with Wendy again. Technically it could have been addressed by doing a second round of refreshes outside of the skill trees then doing the skill trees after but I think some people would lose their minds if that ever became the plan. It's also not just a thing exclusive to these skill trees if every character is treated in this way that means even a character like Maxwell has to be treated this way. Different characters need different levels of care we can't just look at characters who are flawed and characters who are completely fine and go yep they both need the exact same solution because they don't. Again that's not to say that Wendy doesn't have some remaining tweaks that could be done but overall she got a pretty good skill tree as is and especially compared to Wolfgang for example who definitely got the short end of the stick.

Thing is, "unfair" is a very arbitratry metric to go by. Just because a character is umpopular it doesn't "deserve" a better update than anybody else's, and restricting other characters into mediocre updates from the get-go just because "they're already good" is going to make situations like the one we had in this beta repeate itself.

Ideally, we would want all characters to get a good skilltree that revitalizes the character and expands on their skillset in a positive way. As per Klei's words, they have different people working on each tree, so this shouldn't be an impossibility.
All you really need is something that fits with the character, allows for an extension on their kit, and ideally allows for new gameplay expression. An example of this are the Team Spirit skill line which allows to perform new actions with Abigail that you coudln't before, the Slingshot skills, that allows you to customize and build your own weapon, the woby skills, which allows teleport among others, or Wortox, where soul decoy adds to his base kit and creates new gameplay.
Expanding a character's kit in a positive way doesn't require a straigh buff or turn the character immortal. Even wolfgang, as uninteresting and lackluster as I find his skilltree, it does have such skills in the form of Chore Workout.

So I do completely reject your notion that a character deserves a boring and mediocre skill tree just because is already a "meta" character. I do hope we get a good skilltree for both Maxwell and Wanda, and there aren't people justifying otherwise because "they were already good" before the skilltree, lest we end up with Wolfgang 2.0 and Wolfgang 3.0 for their skilltrees. If I could choose, I would want all the trees to be like Walter's.

The main issue I have with Wendy is that almost everything is gated behind tedius tasks, not even hard ones like a boss, or long term progression, just tedius and repetitive tasks to access her skills. That or a significant drawback on her existing gameplay. Or both.

I dislike her skills for the same reason I disliked disease. All you had to do was dig up your plants and replant them every couple dozen days. But it was a tedius chore that added nothing to the gameplay. Similar issue with megabases, summer, finglomatics and caves. Wendy skills are not as bad because you don't have to use them, but I do look at the skills at I think "is this really the only way to balance it? Make it boring and tedius or give a significant drawback? There's gotta be a better way". But well, the beta is already over, and we got two really good skill trees out of it. I just hope the rest of the characters get a Walter tier skill tree, or close to it, and not a Wolfgang/Wilson skilltree.

21 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Even then I feel like what Wendy got is really under appreciated like take team spirit for example "attack at" means Wendy now has access to a free projectile attack of sorts more or less giving Wendy the old use of the slingshot and then there's haunt while there are various haunt interactions a key one that seems to not really be talked about is how Abigail can haunt hounds for very easy gem access at hound mounds even early on. Even if not in the way some may have wanted these are two gameplay changing skills as easier gem access means Wendy can lean harder on magic or even mass produce higher tier gems when paired with Wilson.

The Team Spirit skills are universally agreed upon as the best in her skilltree. They can be used in many situations, don't cost half a day of grinding to use them, and have no drawbacks. Only complains I've seen are regarding the shared cooldown for all of them, and controller and UI issues. The disagreements come from the rest of the tree, not the single best line in the tree.w

[Dr. Safety]

19 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

So I do completely reject your notion that a character deserves a boring and mediocre skill tree just because is already a "meta" character.

That isn't his notion though. His notion isn't that Wendy deserves a bad skill tree. It's just that Walter deserves a more impactful skill tree than Wendy because Wendy was way more impactful than him before the skill trees.

I think there is some miscommunication. Walter's tree needs to be more "powerful" because he was incredibly weak before. However, Wendy's tree requires lots of boring tasks to make use of, which is an unfun game mechanic. You don't want Wendy to get a skill tree that is similar to Walter's in power, you want a tree that is similar to Walter's in fun. Right?

[Mysterious box]

45 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Thing is, "unfair" is a very arbitratry metric to go by. Just because a character is umpopular it doesn't "deserve" a better update than anybody else's, and restricting other characters into mediocre updates from the get-go just because "they're already good" is going to make situations like the one we had in this beta repeate itself.

That's the thing it's not because he wasn't popular it's because his base kit didn't work properly in the case of the slingshot and was just overall worse than the alternative in the case of Woby. Wendy didn't get a mediocre update and I'm not saying other characters deserve bad skill trees I'm saying you can't expect her to get a skill tree on par with someone whose skill tree was mostly concerned with fixing long standing issues that's just not a realistic expectation because it's a fact that a character like that is obviously going to need more.

45 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Ideally, we would want all characters to get a good skilltree that revitalizes the character and expands on their skillset in a positive way. As per Klei's words, they have different people working on each tree, so this shouldn't be an impossibility.
All you really need is something that fits with the character, allows for an extension on their kit, and ideally allows for new gameplay expression. An example of this are the Team Spirit skill line which allows to perform new actions with Abigail that you coudln't before, the Slingshot skills, that allows you to customize and build your own weapon, the woby skills, which allows teleport among others, or Wortox, where soul decoy adds to his base kit and creates new gameplay.
Expanding a character's kit in a positive way doesn't require a straigh buff or turn the character immortal. Even wolfgang, as uninteresting and lackluster as I find his skilltree, it does have such skills in the form of Chore Workout.

so reducing her grind for potions, giving her 7 new abilities via the wreath, a new revival method, new forms, the ability to panic enemies, haunt them, and send Abigail at them, as well as new grave interactions isn't revitalizing the character?

Now look at Walter by comparison had he been given a refresh first instead almost his entire customizer branch, his projectile pro skill, and most of Woby's branch would have been base kit but now he needs to spend skill points to reach that standard then go beyond but what's being asked for is to ignore that fact and design characters the same despite the inherent differences in their situations.

Also it's not like Walter doesn't have his own chores his crafts take him all over the map from the swamp, to the lunar islands, to the ruins, some crafts even requiring taking on various bosses just to access then on top of that there's Woby who is paid in monster meats which much like Wendy has skills to ease the burden a bit.

[Dingle]

36 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That's the thing it's not because he wasn't popular it's because his base kit didn't work properly in the case of the slingshot and was just overall worse than the alternative in the case of Woby. Wendy didn't get a mediocre update and I'm not saying other characters deserve bad skill trees I'm saying you can't expect her to get a skill tree on par with someone whose skill tree was mostly concerned with fixing long standing issues that's just not a realistic expectation because it's a fact that a character like that is obviously going to need more.

so reducing her grind for potions, giving her 7 new abilities via the wreath, a new revival method, new forms, the ability to panic enemies, haunt them, and send Abigail at them, as well as new grave interactions isn't revitalizing the character?

Now look at Walter by comparison had he been given a refresh first instead almost his entire customizer branch, his projectile pro skill, and most of Woby's branch would have been base kit but now he needs to spend skill points to reach that standard then go beyond but what's being asked for is to ignore that fact and design characters the same despite the inherent differences in their situations.

Also it's not like Walter doesn't have his own chores his crafts take him all over the map from the swamp, to the lunar islands, to the ruins, some crafts even requiring taking on various bosses just to access then on top of that there's Woby who is paid in monster meats which much like Wendy has skills to ease the burden a bit.

In your Wendy list you forgot one really big game changing one:

For a single point, you can get Escape. This lets you give her invulnerability frames on command. This is huge against many bosses, particularly big AOE ones. Celestial Champion phase 3 as an example.

Picnic Casket is also great.

[DVGMedia]

35 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Wendy has skills to ease the burden a bit.

The main point being that every character should get a walter type skill tree because  why limit? If we are talking profits klei should incentivize making all characters enjoyable.  Not just to those who already enjoy them.  Wendys tree doesn't incentivize anyone to really play her outside of maybe gestalt because from people they said they would do it cause it's a nerf to Wendy and they feel justified to play such an easy character now

[CremeLover]

1 hour ago, Dr. Safety said:

You don't want Wendy to get a skill tree that is similar to Walter's in power, you want a tree that is similar to Walter's in fun. Right?

Correct. Powerwise, I do think Wendy has Walter beat by quite a bit, whereas Walter has much easier time not getting hit and avoiding damage, and their particular quirks makes certain bosses easier on one character than on the other. "powerful" and "weak" are difficult things to measure in the first place without further context.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That's the thing it's not because he wasn't popular it's because his base kit didn't work properly in the case of the slingshot and was just overall worse than the alternative in the case of Woby. Wendy didn't get a mediocre update and I'm not saying other characters deserve bad skill trees I'm saying you can't expect her to get a skill tree on par with  someone whose skill tree was mostly concerned with fixing long standing issues that just not a realistic expectation because it's a fact that a character like that is obviously going to need more.

I have never complained nor demanded for Walter's power on Wendy's skill tree, all I ever did was request for less tedium and more QoL, and utility suggestions with actual practical use. I would give tweaks to many of the skills Wendy has currently (Player Tag still feels like a patchwork, revert shadow Abigail to scale with daytime) but I'd be satisfied with most of her current skilltree (except Lunar Abigail) if you didn't have to jump through so many hoops to access it in the first place.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

so reducing her grind for potions

10 points for max reduction no less, and still no alternative way to adquire mourning glory.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

giving her 7 new abilities via the wreath

Only helmet in the game that cannot be hotswap.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

a NEW revival method

?????

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

new forms

Very tedious and with severe drawbacks.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

the ability to panic enemies, haunt them, and send Abigail at them

These are great. We all love these.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

as well as new grave interactions isn't revitalizing the character?

I'm not a fan of the bigspooks and I haven't seen much fuss about them in the forums. Not sure how significant they are for the average player. And honestly maybe umpopular opinion, but Wendy shouldn't be the only character that can relocate graves, Wormwood shoudln't be the only one that can craft basic resource nodes, and Wickerbottom shoudln't have a monopoly over making it rain at wil.

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Now look at Walter by comparison had he been given a refresh first instead almost his entire customizer branch, his projectile pro skill, and most of Woby's branch would have been base kit but now he needs to spend skill points to reach that standard then go beyond but what's being asked for is to ignore that fact and design characters the same despite the inherent differences in their situations.

Also it's not like Walter doesn't have his own chores his crafts take him all over the map from the swamp, to the lunar islands, to the ruins, some crafts even requiring taking on various bosses just to access then on top of that there's Woby who is paid in monster meats which much like Wendy has skills to ease the burden a bit.

Yeah, Walter gets to do his chores to permanently upgrade his kit, and some are gated behind late game, similar to Wigfrid's spear, and Winona's catapults. But that's it. One and done.

If you were to make the cost of shadow Woby similar to Shadow Abigail, we theorize some simple changes to make it happen:
-You can give monster meat to Woby in bulk of 1 stacks
-Shadow Woby activates for 4 seconds per monster meat or treat
-You can teleport for free while Shadow Woby is active.
-Treats now spoil in a day

And still, monster meat is easier to get and preserve that random critters, and can even be automated, so is not a 1-1 comparison, and I really like the current Walter too much to even think of asking for this change, but this should illustrate how inconvenient and more of a hassle Shadow Woby would become if it was given the Abigail treatment.

And for Lunar Woby:
-Make him permanently transformed
-Can only transform/unstranform based off of moon phases, none of this right click/feeding pocket meat nonsense.
-You can take double the damage before being thrown off of Woby.
-In exchange, it doesn't do all helper woby actions from the skilltree nor work as a storage, even if you have them selected.
-No Speedboost

Again, none of these functions are as vital to Woby as AoE is to Abigail, but you get the perks of not having to feed woby, which with the change to snacks it should be something to be grateful for.

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

  

 

Spoiler

 

Correct. Powerwise, I do think Wendy has Walter beat by quite a bit, whereas Walter has much easier time not getting hit and avoiding damage, and their particular quirks makes certain bosses easier on one character than on the other. "powerful" and "weak" are difficult things to measure in the first place without further context.

 

I have never complained nor demanded for Walter's power on Wendy's skill tree, all I ever did was request for less tedium and more QoL, and utility suggestions with actual practical use. I would give tweaks to many of the skills Wendy has currently (Player Tag still feels like a patchwork, revert shadow Abigail to scale with daytime) but I'd be satisfied with most of her current skilltree (except Lunar Abigail) if you didn't have to jump through so many hoops to access it in the first place.

 

10 points for max reduction no less, and still no alternative way to adquire mourning glory.

 

Only helmet in the game that cannot be hotswap.

 

?????

 

Very tedious and with severe drawbacks.

 

These are great. We all love these.

 

I'm not a fan of the bigspooks and I haven't seen much fuss about them in the forums. Not sure how significant they are for the average player. And honestly maybe umpopular opinion, but Wendy shouldn't be the only character that can relocate graves, Wormwood shoudln't be the only one that can craft basic resource nodes, and Wickerbottom shoudln't have a monopoly over making it rain at wil.

 

Yeah, Walter gets to do his chores to permanently upgrade his kit, and some are gated behind late game, similar to Wigfrid's spear, and Winona's catapults. But that's it. One and done.

 

If you were to make the cost of shadow Woby similar to Shadow Abigail, we theorize some simple changes to make it happen:

-You can give monster meat to Woby in bulk of 1 stacks

-Shadow Woby activates for 4 seconds per monster meat or treat

-You can teleport for free while Shadow Woby is active.

-Treats now spoil in a day

 

And still, monster meat is easier to get and preserve that random critters, and can even be automated, so is not a 1-1 comparison, and I really like the current Walter too much to even think of asking for this change, but this should illustrate how inconvenient and more of a hassle Shadow Woby would become if it was given the Abigail treatment.

 

And for Lunar Woby:

-Make him permanently transformed

-Can only transform/unstranform based off of moon phases, none of this right click nonsense.

-You can take double the damage before being thrown off of Woby.

-In exchange, it doesn't do all helper woby actions from the skilltree nor work as a storage, even if you have them selected.

-No Speedboost

 

Again, none of these functions are as vital to Woby as AoE is to Abigail, but you get the perks of not having to feed woby, which with the change to snacks it should be something to be grateful for.

 

For real that's the exact treatment Abby got for her perks and it was hidden in the guise of balance if Walter hat woby that way I'm sure people would complain of the tedium 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, CremeLover said:

Only helmet in the game that cannot be hotswap.

As I've said I agree this is a flawed and that other tweaks are needed but assuming it was fixed this would be a high quality skill

14 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

?????

It shares a similar style of reviving with an existing one does that not still make it new? Is wortox's not new because his is similar to a taletell heart for example? 

 

16 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

I have never complained nor demanded for Walter's power on Wendy's skill tree, all I ever did was request for less tedium and more QoL, and utility suggestions with actual practical use. I would give tweaks to many of the skills Wendy has currently (Player Tag still feels like a patchwork, revert shadow Abigail to scale with daytime) but I'd be satisfied with most of her current skilltree (except Lunar Abigail) if you didn't have to jump through so many hoops to access it in the first place.

It's worth mentioning once again that I also said Wendy's skills could use some tweaks however I do feel that her tree is good overall in what it does introduce.

3 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Yeah, Walter gets to do his chores to permanently upgrade his kit, and some are gated behind late game, similar to Wigfrid's spear, and Winona's catapults. But that's it. One and done.

If you were to make the cost of shadow Woby similar to Shadow Abigail, we theorize some simple changes to make it happen:
-You can give monster meat to Woby in bulk of 1 stacks
-Shadow Woby activates for 4 seconds per monster meat or treat
-You can teleport for free while Shadow Woby is active.
-Treats now spoil in a day

And still, monster meat is easier to get and preserve that random critters, and can even be automated, so is not a 1-1 comparison, and I really like the current Walter too much to even think of asking for this change, but this should illustrate how inconvenient and more of a hassle Shadow Woby would become if it was given the Abigail treatment.

And for Lunar Woby:
-Make him permanently transformed
-Can only transform/unstranform based off of moon phases, none of this right click nonsense.
-You can take double the damage before being thrown off of Woby.
-In exchange, it doesn't do all helper woby actions from the skilltree nor work as a storage, even if you have them selected.
-No Speedboost

Again, none of these functions are as vital to Woby as AoE is to Abigail, but you get the perks of not having to feed woby, which with the change to snacks it should be something to be grateful for.

Only some of his chores are done permanently for example he'll always need to keep getting more ammo for his slingshot some sources being easier than others but that's a constant as is monster meat for Woby. Walter is a character who is already filled to the brim with grind so it's strange to pretend like this is uniquely a Wendy thing. I get it you don't enjoy a lot of the newer skills added to Wendy but it's not like Walter won't get the same reception. Field medic is only going to see value to those who want to use healing items over meta foods, same with all the scouting skills in one way or another while others will probably ignore the rider improvements of Woby because they don't want to give up the comforts of a beefalo.

Also it's kind of funny you bring up lunar Woby and the moon phases as her bonus ability only works under a full moon or a enlightened zone so while it is only a bonus added on it's actually more restrictive than Abigail's gestalt activation. 

22 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

The main point being that every character should get a walter type skill tree because  why limit? If we are talking profits klei should incentivize making all characters enjoyable.  Not just to those who already enjoy them.  Wendys tree doesn't incentivize anyone to really play her outside of maybe gestalt because from people they said they would do it cause it's a nerf to Wendy and they feel justified to play such an easy character now

I don't think they limited it though there was simply less to do could they have added more sure but they can always add more if they really wanted to each skill tree could have 45 skills broken into 3 branches. I personally find it hard to believe new people won't be drawn to the changes made to Wendy especially the new potion interactions as brewing drinkable potions that give you various effects is a neat concept all in of itself. 

That being said a Walter type skill tree is something that comes into existence specifically because something was wrong with a character it's a special case that doesn't need to be the standard.

 

[kikia]

34 minutes ago, Dingle said:

In your Wendy list you forgot one really big game changing one:

For a single point, you can get Escape. This lets you give her invulnerability frames on command. This is huge against many bosses, particularly big AOE ones. Celestial Champion phase 3 as an example.

Picnic Casket is also great.

The "escape" command isn't as useful as you might think when facing BOSSes, because Wendy also needs to dodge the BOSS's attacks. This requires reserving lead time for issuing commands to Abby. Opening the wheel to select commands takes time, and Wendy's whisper also has a delay. As a result, the "attack at" command often proves far more practical in actual combat.

The "escape" more like a pure disengagement tool — useful when you want Abby to retreat temporarily without unsummoning her.

As for CC phase3, if you opt for Lubby, you barely need to manually control Abby at all.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, kikia said:

The "escape" command isn't as useful as you might think when facing BOSSes, because Wendy also needs to dodge the BOSS's attacks. This requires reserving lead time for issuing commands to Abby. Opening the wheel to select commands takes time, and Wendy's whisper also has a delay. As a result, the "attack at" command often proves far more practical in actual combat.

The "escape" more like a pure disengagement tool — useful when you want Abby to retreat temporarily without unsummoning her.

As for CC phase3, if you opt for Lubby, you barely need to manually control Abby at all.

Did you try it? After some practice, I found it incredible.

[kikia]

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Did you try it? After some practice, I found it incredible.

Yes, I tried it out. Perhaps we can add some details

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, kikia said:

Yes, I tried it out. Perhaps we can add some details

Even with my limited experience, Escape dodging worked really well on bosses with a slow attack animation or an otherwise predictable big aoe.

Couple examples:

Fuelweaver attacks slow enough for me to use Escape to dodge it. I could have Abby on aggressive as I went for shadow hands, these use Escape to have her dodge attacks.

Bearger AOEs predictably. You can get the wheel out early, then click to dodge.

CC phase 3 as mentioned. People have already figured out how to use Escape to have Abby dodge the aoe melee attack.

Videos are floating around for these too, if you were genuinely curious and you're not just going to reply with "well these don't count" or something similar.

[DVGMedia]

35 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That being said a Walter type skill tree is something that comes into existence specifically because something was wrong with a character it's a special case that doesn't need to be the standard.

 

Why shouldn't it be the standard? I would think that would provide the best results for all players where they don't feel left out 

[woxd]

On 2/23/2025 at 2:56 PM, Yaorin yon said:

These issues have been politely suggested hundreds of times in the past,

"""""""""politely"""""""""""

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Why shouldn't it be the standard? I would think that would provide the best results for all players where they don't feel left out 

Because then it loops back around to what I said previously why should flawed characters have to buy into their fixes while others don't? As I said the main reason Walter's style of skill tree seems much better is because the fixes are optional so you see them as having more overall content rather than what they actually are. Like imagine if pre refresh Wendy was the one who got a skill tree instead for example. Now she'd have to buy into vex, her original potions likely in pairs of 2 like Walter's new rounds, and Abigail being able to be directly summoned without sacrifices or waiting on her cooldown. If Klei sold all that to her on top of her existing skills by condensing the current ones it would seem like she got a lot more than she has now too but the end result would be the same no? This is what happened with Walter so getting the same treatment wouldn't really make sense. It's not favoritism being shown it's legitimately a case of some characters needed more than others.

[DVGMedia]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Because then it loops back around to what I said previously why should flawed characters have to buy into their fixes while others don't? As I said the main reason Walter's style of skill tree seems much better is because the fixes are optional so you see them as having more overall content rather than what they actually are. Like imagine if pre refresh Wendy was the one who got a skill tree instead for example. Now she'd have to buy into vex, her original potions likely in pairs of 2 like Walter's new rounds, and Abigail being able to be directly summoned without sacrifices or waiting on her cooldown. If Klei sold all that to her on top of her existing skills by condensing the current ones it would seem like she got a lot more than she has now too but the end result would be the same no? This is what happened with Walter so getting the same treatment wouldn't really make sense. It's not favoritism being shown it's legitimately a case of some characters needed more than others.

It wouldn't Walter got alot if basekit buffs for free which is something  Wendy and others had gotten with their refresh so saying that they will pay for it with points isn't correct

If that was the case the situation you said wouldn't be a problem because they would already be compensated with improvements to the base kit. That's what occured in most of the refreshes  they would have changes the auto summon and made it base kit 

 

The status quo should be prioritize new fun mechanics to spice up the character

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

It wouldn't Walter got alot if basekit buffs for free which is something  Wendy and others had gotten with their refresh so saying that they will pay for it with points isn't correct

If that was the case the situation you said wouldn't be a problem because they would already be compensated with improvements to the base kit. That's what occured in most of the refreshes 

He did get some base kit buffs but those weren't enough to solve his core issues without delving into the skill tree on the slingshot side or the Woby side.

[kikia]

21 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Videos are floating around for these too, if you were genuinely curious and you're not just going to reply with "well these don't count" or something similar.

I’m here for genuine discussion.

34 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Fuelweaver attacks slow enough for me to use Escape to dodge it. I could have Abby on aggressive as I went for shadow hands, these use Escape to have her dodge attacks.

I had never considered trying to have Abby dodge attacks when I dealing with the hands — this actually makes the combat more engaging

40 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Bearger AOEs predictably. You can get the wheel out early, then click to dodge.

I tried it, but it wasn't effective enough — the evasion timing ate into too many damage windows. My preferred approach is using the "attack at" to flank Bearger from both sides with Abby, shortening the fight duration to ensure her survival. This strategy works equally well against Armored Bearger.

[CremeLover]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It shares a similar style of reviving with an existing one does that not still make it new? Is wortox's not new because his is similar to a taletell heart for example?

It does not make it new. Wortox Telltale Heart has extra functionality, which makes it slightly different. And to note a Meat Effigy is not one of the most used revival items in the game. Still, it was a Lifegiving Amulet reskin instead of a Meat Effigy reskin, I believe you would be seeing a different conversation from both sides.

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Only some of his chores are done permanently for example he'll always need to keep getting more ammo for his slingshot some sources being easier than others but that's a constant as is monster meat for Woby. Walter is a character who is already filled to the brim with grind so it's strange to pretend like this is uniquely a Wendy thing. I get it you don't enjoy a lot of the newer skills added to Wendy but it's not like Walter won't get the same reception. Field medic is only going to see value to those who want to use healing items over meta foods, same with all the scouting skills in one way or another while others will probably ignore the rider improvements of Woby because they don't want to give up the comforts of a beefalo.

It is a uniquely Wendy thing. The exclusive resource gathering I mean.
Mourning glory can only be farmed by her through a single sidequest, and it cannot be automated, or delegated to another player, or simplified in sandbox-like ways, any other tangeable resources from the rest of the cast.

Walter goes through difficult tasks to kill bosses, and along the way he gets the rewards required to upgrade his slingshot, he goes to kill ancient guardian and clear the ruins, and along the way he gets tons of cursed rounds ammo, some slowdown, the thulecite frame (permanent upgrade), and once the recipes are unlocked, he can craft them anywere, and can even get the thulecite he needs without going to the ruins again through sailing if he wishes. Or just craft gold rounds, or moon shard rounds, that literally fall out of the sky after activating rifts.

Wendy's skills on the other hand, faces no difficulty to activate her affinities. There's no challenge to "catch 20 bugs", just go to your local bee-hive, and snatch them. If you're in the caves, just go surface and catch bugs. If you're in the ocean, just go mainland and catch more bugs. If is winter, well, sucks to be you. Good thing you're Wendy and have inifite supply of silk. I don't want to be constantly going to the same nodes to catch bugs for the same reason I go to caves in summer instead of chopping wood and/or use bearger's annual wood yield to power dozens of flingos to keep the base from bursting into flames, because is annoying, tedious and unfun.

Monster meat can be farmed automatically very easily, and can turn non-perishable after drying them with the treats skill, really no point of comparison to catching a stack of perishable critters with a bugnet everytime you want to use her affinity.

There's very few, if anything, that's permanent on Wendy's kit, team spirit skills being the only exceptions.

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Also it's kind of funny you bring up lunar Woby and the moon phases as her bonus ability only works under a full moon or a enlightened zone so while it is only a bonus added on it's actually more restrictive than Abigail's gestalt activation.

If the minor sideperk of no hunger drain is all you got from the Woby-Aby maintenance comparison, and ignored everyting else, I can't help but think you're being a little facetious.

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That being said a Walter type skill tree is something that comes into existence specifically because something was wrong with a character it's a special case that doesn't need to be the standard.

Other characters should have skilltrees that are as fun as Walter's. I do not believe he should be a special case, and I'm not sure why you want other trees to be less fun to make Walter more special.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

It does not make it new. Wortox Telltale Heart has extra functionality, which makes it slightly different. And to note a Meat Effigy is not one of the most used revival items in the game. Still, it was a Lifegiving Amulet reskin instead of a Meat Effigy reskin, I believe you would be seeing a different conversation from both sides.

Wortox also can't use it to revive himself and has to spend 3 skill points before it gets an effect he himself can benefit from.

5 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

It is a uniquely Wendy thing. The exclusive resource gathering I mean.
Mourning glory can only be farmed by her through a single sidequest, and it cannot be automated, or delegated to another player, or simplified in sandbox-like ways, any other tangeable resources from the rest of the cast.

Walter goes through difficult tasks to kill bosses, and along the way he gets the rewards required to upgrade his slingshot, he goes to kill ancient guardian and clear the ruins, and along the way he gets tons of cursed rounds ammo, some slowdown, the thulecite frame (permanent upgrade), and once the recipes are unlocked, he can craft them anywere, and can even get the thulecite he needs without going to the ruins again through sailing if he wishes. Or just craft gold rounds, or moon shard rounds, that literally fall out of the sky after activating rifts.

Wendy's skills on the other hand, faces no difficulty to activate her affinities. There's no challenge to "catch 20 bugs", just go to your local bee-hive, and snatch them. If you're in the caves, just go surface and catch bugs. If you're in the ocean, just go mainland and catch more bugs. If is winter, well, sucks to be you. Good thing you're Wendy and have inifite supply of silk. I don't want to be constantly going to the same nodes to catch bugs for the same reason I go to caves in summer instead of chopping wood and/or use bearger's annual wood yield to power dozens of flingos to keep the base from bursting into flames, because is annoying, tedious and unfun.

Monster meat can be farmed automatically very easily, and can turn non-perishable after drying them with the treats skill, really no point of comparison to catching a stack of perishable critters with a bugnet everytime you want to use her affinity.

There's very few, if anything, that's permanent on Wendy's kit, team spirit skills being the only exceptions.

Sunken chests only drop full pieces of thulecite so he'd still need to go to the ruins to turn them into walls to break and even then he still needs to go to the ruins to learn the recipe for cursed rounds and even then still once thulecite begins running low he'll need to kill fuel weaver to reset the ruins or rely on dust moths. Marble rounds requires a repetitive task to maintain and moon glass also only has select sources after you begin to run low at least until you open the lunar rifts. Moon stone is another resource that will generally need some grinding. Also while you can setup auto farms for some resources like monster meat not everyone wants to go through the trouble or even knows how so you can't rightfully say it's a non issue on any of the fronts and again this is while already considering his slingshot mod journey which are baseline improvements. Yes Walter has some permanent upgrades but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the grind even if it's not immediate on some resources.

33 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

It is a uniquely Wendy thing. The exclusive resource gathering I mean.
Mourning glory can only be farmed by her through a single sidequest, and it cannot be automated, or delegated to another player, or simplified in sandbox-like ways, any other tangeable resources from the rest of the cast.

You can move the spawners to base and have a skill that gives you a huge amount per quest.

 

16 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

If the minor sideperk of no hunger drain is all you got from the Woby-Aby maintenance comparison, and ignored everyting else, I can't help but think you're being a little facetious.

I didn't ignore what you said I just feel like you were being facetious. You acted like all the grind baked into Walter was just some small thing in comparison to Wendy. I don't know if it's just that you've never tried post skill tree Walter but getting his stuff together is very time consuming and you just trying to handwave doesn't sit right.

23 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Other characters should have skilltrees that are as fun as Walter's. I do not believe he should be a special case, and I'm not sure why you want other trees to be less fun to make Walter more special.

I never said other characters shouldn't have fun skill trees and I've already said I consider what was added in Wendy's skill tree fun just that some of it needs some tweaks. I don't get why you guys keep trying to push that narrative. What I keep saying no matter how many times you guys try to misrepresent it is that Walter's tree only appears a lot better because half his tree is spent fixing issues with his base kit Wendy's didn't need that kind of fix therefore she didn't get it. If the skill tree as a whole for Wendy is seen as unfun despite all it adds beyond what some tweaks could fix I feel like it's a case of you guys not appreciating the little things but that's just my assumption on the matter.

 

[Yaorin yon]

9 hours ago, Koomin said:

Last time there was a poll everyone of all opinions declared the poll worthless, so no that seems like a waste of time.  People that were unhappy with Wendy's skill tree said it was biased and useless because people were tired of the changes and annoyed by Wendy posts so were voting in spite, and people that were happy with Wendy's skill tree said it was biased and useless because of brigading in support of Wendy buffs, and overall no one cared about the poll results.  

(If you are interested in the result though, the majority voted to release the Wendy tree as it currently is)

Because so many people think differently from you, you’ve labeled them as biased. Any voting results that go against you are deemed meaningless. This is what I’ve seen since November 22nd—everything you and your supporters have done. When all the normal people leave this forum, you can enjoy your “spoils.” Make the forum and the game worse. I hope you keep buying skins to make Klei money.

[Echsrick]

1 minute ago, Yaorin yon said:

Because so many people think differently from you, you’ve labeled them as biased

so exactly the same thing what you lots keep doin