Wendy is the same but a little stronger

[Walrusst]

13 minutes ago, kikia said:

I welcome integrating this design into Sisturn I rather than replacing Sisturn III. Having three capstone skills revolve solely around expanding/conserving mourning glories feels stale. some people don't like pipspooks because quests are tedious—a sentiment I share. If possible, I’d prefer Klei to make helping pipspooks more engaging as a interesting way, not just a grind.

I get that, i see it as the two methods of getting the stuff would make a lot of sense just because the opinions on its gather method are that divisive. The potions craft being a multiplier branch with limited content does hurt, but people having options with how their resource system works gives a little player expression (Since not everyone wants to do the same exact grind, the farming character has skills that support like six different farming methods so people can decide which farming methods they actually enjoy doing instead of just being forced to use one of them. There are technically four branches (Celestial, mushrooms, bushes, bees/traditional farming) about farming there.)

Since, people being able to chose their bottlenecks/pain points is a good thing.

My concern with trying to make sisturn 3 a combat ability pretty much goes as such, its pretty clear that we are on a razers edge with wendy where klei is worried about going further because she is already stretching the power margins that klei is scared of crossing.
So we would need a extremely actionable and not just power stacking idea that can be quickly implemented if you want your disappointment to actually manifest as anything with how little time is left.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

"Walter should has the best and stop your Wendy & Wortox's crying" lol.

Feel free to take everything of Wendy's matter into personally things. It's Wendy. To criticise or to insult Wendy players is a political correctness of this beta branch. So you will be fine.

Wendy & Wortox have some of the strongest skill trees in the entire game.

[CremeLover]

  

5 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I’m not sure how that would be possible, though. I get the mourning glory/potion skills are not the funnest thing ever, but the skills specifically reduce the tedium of getting glory and crafting more potions, the main thing you are making as Wendy, without making her collection rates worse than before the tree. Pre and post skilltree without taking any skills, there should be an identical amount of tedium, and there should be less if you take the skills. If factoring in the skills, the basket is also of some assistance to organize the glories/potions you will inevitably want to carry with you anyway, either for Abigail or to make use of the wreath.

I'm talking about her new stuff. All non resource based skills, with the exception of team spirit, are locked behind a task you have to complete before you can access it, or has some kind of drawback:
-Shadow Abigail: Kill a bunch of mobs in your inventory
-Player tag: Make sure sisturn has 4 lunar petals
-Wraith's Wreath: Takes a head slot and cannot hot swap for anything else if you want to use it.
-Lunar Abigail: No maintenance, but it changes how the character works fundimentally.

If you want to play Wendy the exact same way, and not use any if her new stuff in the skilltree, then yes, you can just take your tedium reducing perks and play your "vanilla+" Wendy, without using her affinities or sisturn or Wreath perks. But my argument is that there's a significant lack of convenience in her skilltree, where most of her new stuff is locked behind some minor, yet repetitive and time consuming busywork, or tradeoff, or both.

Yeah, her skilltree is fine, but all these tradeoffs and tedium busywork puts me off of the character and makes me want to play something else.
The Team Spirit skills are very nice, but on their own they're not enough to offset all of this.

[SilverSpoon]

16 hours ago, Debruh said:

'People don't like the skill tree, so they're starting to insult the devs and threaten them. It is perfectly reasonable' is basically what this is saying

Broski what??

They just reference what the Forum Residents did to the Wendy Player.

[PunkShark]

4 hours ago, CremeLover said:

  

I'm talking about her new stuff. All non resource based skills, with the exception of team spirit, are locked behind a task you have to complete before you can access it, or has some kind of drawback:
-Shadow Abigail: Kill a bunch of mobs in your inventory
-Player tag: Make sure sisturn has 4 lunar petals
-Wraith's Wreath: Takes a head slot and cannot hot swap for anything else if you want to use it.
-Lunar Abigail: No maintenance, but it changes how the character works fundimentally.

If you want to play Wendy the exact same way, and not use any if her new stuff in the skilltree, then yes, you can just take your tedium reducing perks and play your "vanilla+" Wendy, without using her affinities or sisturn or Wreath perks. But my argument is that there's a significant lack of convenience in her skilltree, where most of her new stuff is locked behind some minor, yet repetitive and time consuming busywork, or tradeoff, or both.

Yeah, her skilltree is fine, but all these tradeoffs and tedium busywork puts me off of the character and makes me want to play something else.
The Team Spirit skills are very nice, but on their own they're not enough to offset all of this.

I'm sorry to say but it just sounds like you just want Abi to do everything for you without at least some work put into it.  I think a lack of progression and lack things to do as Wendy over the many years of her being quite simple and easy to use and not really putting on a lot of teamwork between the two has made you too comfortable to not appreciate change in her character.
As there are perks that are built on fetching things for Abi to work they way they do now, there are also perks that negate the tedium in a manner of ways so you don't have to deal with it as much if you choose so. She has gotten lots of utility from her skill tree alone. But maybe its not what you wanted. Perhaps by time you will eventually see how greatly Wendy's gameplay has improved, but for now it might just be too early to tell.

[CremeLover]

  

 

22 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

I'm sorry to say but it just sounds like you just want Abi to do everything for you without at least some work put into it.  I think a lack of progression and lack things to do as Wendy over the many years of her being quite simple and easy to use and not really putting on a lot of teamwork between the two has made you too comfortable to not appreciate change in her character.
As there are perks that are built on fetching things for Abi to work they way they do now, there are also perks that negate the tedium in a manner of ways so you don't have to deal with it as much if you choose so. She has gotten lots of utility from her skill tree alone. But maybe its not what you wanted. Perhaps by time you will eventually see how greatly Wendy's gameplay has improved, but for now it might just be too early to tell.

Is fine is you don't play Wendy, or are too absorbed in other characters to actually engage into the character, but I won't blame you for it, not everyone has time to understand all the characters in this game.
In Don't Starve Together, there's no other character that requires constant maintenence to access their skilltree. Many have their perk either given given for free, or require a sort of progression system, similar to rpgs you might have played, and after completing the requirements, it gives you a pseudo permanent upgrade to either your base skills, or the unique items your character crafts/spawn with. In this game, Wendy's skilltree in particular is the only one where almost everything new is locked behind repetitive and time consuming chores, or has a significant drawback, or both. Wendy has a skill to offset some of the tedium tasks into slighly a slightly less tedium one, but this is far from a significant improvement to her overall gameplay. Her skilltree is very strong numberwise, but is drastically lacking in convenience and utility, and I find it hard to argue otherwise. Perhaps by time you will eventually see how poorly Wendy's gameplay has been touched upon, if you ever get around to it.

[Echsrick]

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wendy & Wortox have some of the strongest skill trees in the entire game.

wortox? are we sure we share the same world? unless best = filler then yes

[Cheggf]

9 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

wortox? are we sure we share the same world? unless best = filler then yes

I didn't say best, I said strongest. He can mass teleport his teammates around constantly while easily amassing souls with his ridiculous AoE damage that can be stored way above previous capacity. All of that is really boring but it is an extreme increase to his efficacy. 

[Echsrick]

10 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I didn't say best, I said strongest. He can mass teleport his teammates around constantly while easily amassing souls with his ridiculous AoE damage that can be stored way above previous capacity. All of that is really boring but it is an extreme increase to his efficacy. 

he cant mass teleport the others, for that he needs to spend alot of souls for 1 heart, does not matter how fast you can get them, and they can only teleport to you, by that point there faster moving to the place themselfs before wortox collects enought souls to make 2 hearts, then go back for more souls to make more just so he then uses even more souls to get to the place so the others can teleport to wortox

[Crimson Hollow]

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I didn't say best, I said strongest. He can mass teleport his teammates around constantly while easily amassing souls with his ridiculous AoE damage that can be stored way above previous capacity. All of that is really boring but it is an extreme increase to his efficacy. 

Well the problem for me is..... You won't get the chance to expand any other aspect of his kit after you select these skills that grants you "mass teleporting" and "soul aoe" and stuff. 

The problem w his tree is not because it's undertuned, but because it's too linear.

[Walrusst]

25 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

wortox? are we sure we share the same world? unless best = filler then yes

Two of the capstones are capable of nearly solo'ing encounters on their own with lesser enemies/turning a kill on a lesser enemy into a boss kill with a little micro.
Going to full souls because you peaked at frog hell for 3 seconds is funny. Telebombing a spider pack and then using the souls to delete 2000-4000 HP bosses is hillarious. A revive taking 2 seconds of grindings good (Since well, go to bee hell or frog hell and it only takes 3 right clicks to kill a whole pack of enemies even with the weakest decoy bomb. One of those is just to clear your soul echo, so you can get like 13 souls off of two souls.) Speed boosts are good. Hell one of the skills people decry as filler (The pan flute souls skill) can allow you to explore the sea with almost zero preparation after finding the glommer statue since you have free food indefinitely.

A tree can be strong and have a lot of filler. It wouldn't take a lot for him to go from strong to positively insane depending on what klei does with the thursday update.

[Cheggf]

Just now, Echsrick said:

he cant mass teleport the others, for that he needs to spend alot of souls for 1 heart, does not matter how fast you can get them, and they can only teleport to you, by that point there faster moving to the place themselfs before wortox collects enought souls to make 2 hearts, then go back for more souls to make more just so he then uses even more souls to get to the place so the others can teleport to wortox

Have you not seen his ridiculous AoE damage?

1 minute ago, Crimson Hollow said:

Well the problem for me is..... You won't get the chance to expand any other aspect of his kit after you select these skills that grants you "mass teleporting" and "soul aoe" and stuff. 

The problem w his tree is not because it's undertuned, but because it's too linear.

Most trees have this problem. You can criticize Wortox's tree for this issue and hope for improvements (which the devs said are coming) but don't pretend like he's unplayable with the worst skill tree ever. It's also considerably less linear than some other trees like Wolfgang's (worst skill tree in the entire game?).

[Crimson Hollow]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Have you not seen his ridiculous AoE damage?

Most trees have this problem. You can criticize Wortox's tree for this issue and hope for improvements (which the devs said are coming) but don't pretend like he's unplayable with the worst skill tree ever. It's also considerably less linear than some other trees like Wolfgang's (worst skill tree in the entire game?).

What? lol i didn't say that, he wasn't unplayable to begin with, what I'm criticizing here is the tree being linear and how the skill points run out before I notice a lot of difference, aka lack of growth. 

As you mentioned these skills are boring but efficient and stuff. I mean there are many ways to make his gameplay interesting, having broken op skills atop fillers is probably not one of them imo

[Echsrick]

13 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Have you not seen his ridiculous AoE damage?

that takes alot of time to even set up in the first place? and actualy does not do alot of damage, especialy if you skip one random differend skill in a completly differend branch?

[Walrusst]

I feel like one of the issues people are having is they are confusing strong with transformative meta defining trees.

Some of my favorite trees are shaped like the ones we have now but accomplish like half as much but I like them because they add a little sauce and utility to someone who really didn't need much else.

Simple and effective is a fine way to do things when a character is healthy to start with. I say this having sort of ground out every tree I hadn't (Even a few dull ones) over this beta, while my home is mostly from playing woodie and the like, wolfgang still was fun because movespeed and gather rate gimmicks from his tree were enough to make me plan my day in interesting ways with the mild gimmick of using barbells as emergency hotbar grenades, wendy having better control over abagail lets you do some hillariously ill advised things and just scream "Abby your a ghost" to dodge the hit, wortox can kill half the enemy roster disarmed. Hell. While its far too expensive for what it is I really adore the lureplant duping on wormwood.

 

2 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

that takes alot of time to even set up in the first place? and actualy does not do alot of damage, especialy if you skip one random differend skill in a completly differend branch?

The 100 souls damage bonus is only like 25% for non knapsacks, if you aren't trying to use the knapsack as an improvised dark sword you can skip it.
The decoys deal 51 damage at base, you don't cross any meaningful damage thresholds going to 63 damage. What enemy in this game has 180 hp?

You only save a hit on 300 hp enemies or higher with 100 souls there.

For the soul piercer, yes, you need to set it up for longer if you don't just drop a stack of bees and nuke them, but we are getting bug net functionality if klei hasn't done a 180 on their stance. If the knapsack is even half as good as the thulecite net soul piercer will be one of the most abusable skills.

[Cheggf]

  

7 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

that takes alot of time to even set up in the first place? and actualy does not do alot of damage, especialy if you skip one random differend skill in a completly differend branch?

It does not. 

17 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

What? lol i didn't say that, he wasn't unplayable to begin with, what I'm criticizing here is the tree being linear and how the skill points run out before I notice a lot of difference, aka lack of growth. 

I never said you specifically did, but you're responding to me responding to someone who did. If nobody here was acting like that and it was just people who were a little unhappy with the way the skill tree is laid out I wouldn't be here. The whole point of the thread from the very start is about people who are using exaggeratory language.

[Echsrick]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

It does not.

it does

[Crimson Hollow]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

  

It does not. 

I never said you specifically did, but you're responding to me responding to someone who did. If nobody here was acting like that and it was just people who were a little unhappy with the way the skill tree is laid out I wouldn't be here. The whole point of the thread from the very start is about people who are using exaggeratory language.

... I don't know... I believe it's called frustration, right? Quite understandable to me at least. 

 

I feel like what we need here is some testing lol

[Bumber64]

51 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

Telebombing a spider pack and then using the souls to delete 2000-4000 HP bosses is hillarious.

If you can pull this off reliably, then you should report it in the beta bug section. The skill was given boss explosion resistance early on, which reduces it to about ~16 damage per hit until you let the resistance reset.

I saw a video with captured bees that showed them being positioned in a weird way, but I don't think you can even do that with spiders.

[Walrusst]

16 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

If you can pull this off reliably, then you should report it in the beta bug section. The skill was given boss explosion resistance early on, which reduces it to about ~16 damage per hit until you let the resistance reset.

I saw a video with captured bees that showed them being positioned in a weird way, but I don't think you can even do that with spiders.

The spiders part was an exaggeration, but yeah when you get a lot of souls stacked it being 16 damage is sort of an afterthought.

Frogs/bees will cluster up enough that you can hit that critical mass of 10-25 souls pretty easily. One of these it only takes a little silk to drop enough of to just do this on command.

[Bumber64]

27 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

The spiders part was an exaggeration, but yeah when you get a lot of souls stacked it being 16 damage is sort of an afterthought.

Frogs/bees will cluster up enough that you can hit that critical mass of 10-25 souls pretty easily. One of these it only takes a little silk to drop enough of to just do this on command.

How many souls can you stack up? 25 is still supposedly just 400 damage per pass. That's potentially worse than Wolfgang DPS, and there's the increasing risk with more souls that they end up overloading you. The video I saw looked like resistance wasn't working at all, with AG downed in a few passes.

(Do the souls eventually disappear on their own? Haven't been inclined to test it, considering decoy exists.)

[Walrusst]

4 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

That's potentially worse than Wolfgang DPS

I feel like this being the floor character people expect to reach is sort of a big problem we keep running into because the game breaks down when you start beating wolfgang dps.

AOE/Support characters beating wolfgang dps would really turn this game on its head.

Being able to get really close to that level of damage on a support character while doing aoe and using a unique input is interesting, especially given you know, you aren't really spending a lot to do it.

[kroban]

23 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Even if the skill tree is not up to people's standards, what is the issue here? Why is she suddenly unplayable when she's only gotten stronger?

Because WendyHell saw the final version of the Walter's skill tree and expected Wendy to get the same treatment. She wasn't "the strongest" before her skill tree, but she was already doing fine. Yet somehow they expected her to get a skill tree as good as Walter, the character that had almost 0 playerbase, was nerfed from the start and stayed that way for like 4 years, and that needed buffs and a rework basically ever since he was added.

Also since Wendy has a large playerbase there were many groups wanting different stuff, some wanted full combat stuff, others utility, or QoL, or woo-woo stuff like an entire "ghost world" dedicated only to her or "Abigail becoming human and copying Wendy's moves", and so on. With that many different requests it was pretty much impossible for Klei to design a skill tree that pleased everyone, but imo they did the best they could. Im sure plenty of Wendy players from WendyHell actually like her skill tree, but as always, negativity is louder than positivity, so it was expected that the forum would be flooded with criticism

Personally, I know 4 Wendy mains from the server I play, and all of them like the skill tree, although they don't use the forum to speak their opinions. Of course, they also have opinions on how some things could have been improved, but they don't think that "the entire skill tree is trash and should be remade" at all. One of them even told me that at the end of the day she just enjoy playing Wendy, and will keep playing her regardless of whether the skill tree ends up being "the most op" or not. I think that many people from the WendyHell sadly don't share this mentality, it seems they are just fanatically asking for her to be "the strongest" because otherwise they can't enjoy playing with Wendy.

[Bumber64]

7 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

I feel like this being the floor character people expect to reach is sort of a big problem we keep running into because the game breaks down when you start beating wolfgang dps.

I should clarify: Depending on the time per pass, at 4 seconds it's potentially worse than Wilson. All the while your screen is jumping back and forth in a nauseating manner.

[Mike23Ua]

Now that Wendy has an on screen target reticule to aim at things and haunt on command I was extremely disappointed that Klei did not do something further with that entire concept.

Such as for example: allowing Wendy to target herself with the reticule and command Abigail to “Haunt” Wendy, and this would allow the Wendy player to briefly float up off the ground and levitate for short distances (because she’s being possessed by a ghost duh) Gameplay wise it would function almost identically to the Blue haired chick from Erudien Chronicles Rising, where even though she can “float” she can’t do it constantly… she can only glide over narrow gaps, she can’t full blown just “Fly”

And that’s one of a few neat tricks I would had given to Wendy now that she has a “haunt this thing on my Command” button.