Please lower Courier Skill requirement to two Scouting skills

[JazzyGames]

The new courier skill is awesome and useful but the three-skill requirement feels too punishing. Arguably all six of the scouting skills - with the exception of woby snacks - are useful mainly as early-game skills. Flutter strip is great until jellybeans, pinetree hat is ok before rift gear, portable drying rack is convenient before a base with dozens of drying racks.

The courier skill by contrast is going to be majorly useful in the late-game for transporting resources. However in order to unlock that we are forced to learn three other courier skills that we might not even want or need in the late-game.

Every other category with a locked skill requires at most two other skills to be learned, and I think that for the sake of consistency this could be applied to the Scouting category as well. There is currently no combination of skills that allows the courier skill without sacrificing either Woby's affinity, Ammo Smith, Ammo affinity, or a slingshot mod skill.

[z3rox12]

i was having this problem, Walter skills are way too usefull and it hurt to pick. Right now you can just reset your skills after upgrading the slingshot.

[Debruh]

Just now, z3rox12 said:

i was having this problem, Walter skills are way too usefull and it hurt to pick. Right now you can just reset your skills after upgrading the slingshot.

They did make it so that you need to have the skill for a container to use it. Maybe this will happen to the slingshot? Idk.

[Jakepeng99]

I believe its fine because its a powerful and complex skill that only needs 1 point.

[Dingle]

21 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

The new courier skill is awesome and useful but the three-skill requirement feels too punishing. Arguably all six of the scouting skills - with the exception of woby snacks - are useful mainly as early-game skills. Flutter strip is great until jellybeans, pinetree hat is ok before rift gear, portable drying rack is convenient before a base with dozens of drying racks.

The courier skill by contrast is going to be majorly useful in the late-game for transporting resources. However in order to unlock that we are forced to learn three other courier skills that we might not even want or need in the late-game.

Every other category with a locked skill requires at most two other skills to be learned, and I think that for the sake of consistency this could be applied to the Scouting category as well. There is currently no combination of skills that allows the courier skill without sacrificing either Woby's affinity, Ammo Smith, Ammo affinity, or a slingshot mod skill.

I thought it was really good design. Most characters can't get all their major capstone skills, at the same time. Example: Willow can't get lunar flames and burning bernie at the same time.

Even now, Walter comes the closest to getting everything at once. All powerful capstone skills. He's only one point short.

[JazzyGames]

25 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I believe its fine because its a powerful and complex skill that only needs 1 point.

It needs four points. That's my point.

Did I mention points?

[Gashzer]

Nah you can't have it all.

Gotta make hard calls between the best skills. It's what makes skilltrees interesting.

[JazzyGames]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Nah you can't have it all.

Gotta make hard calls between the best skills. It's what makes skilltrees interesting.

I don't mind making hard choices between good skills. I do mind being forced to activate three skills that I probably won't even be using at the point in the game where I would make use of the skill that they unlock.

[Civecilim]

42 minutes ago, z3rox12 said:

i was having this problem, Walter skills are way too usefull and it hurt to pick. Right now you can just reset your skills after upgrading the slingshot.

I could have sworn that it was made so that you're not allowed to use a slingshot with an upgrade for which you don't have the associated skill.

[JazzyGames]

26 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I thought it was really good design. Most characters can't get all their major capstone skills, at the same time. Example: Willow can't get lunar flames and burning bernie at the same time.

Interesting. I never thought of Burning Bernie as a capstone skill for Willow, at least not compared to the Bernie affinity skills. You can still get both affinities for Willow and Bernie while unlocking most of the essential Willow lighter perks and still have a tough and properly-aligned Bernie. I guess I normally thought of Willow's skilltree as a good example of how you can unlock most of her important skills without making any major sacrifices.

[Dr. Safety]

It does seem odd for a perk that is useful in all stages of the game to be locked behind 3 that are very early game. The biscuits are nice, but everything else is pretty quickly outclassed. I wouldn't be against lowering the cost, but I also wouldn't be heartbroken if it wasn't lowered

[z3rox12]

6 minutes ago, Civecilim said:

I could have sworn that it was made so that you're not allowed to use a slingshot with an upgrade for which you don't have the associated skill.

just tested and sadly you are right.

[Mysterious box]

37 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I thought it was really good design. Most characters can't get all their major capstone skills, at the same time. Example: Willow can't get lunar flames and burning bernie at the same time.

Even now, Walter comes the closest to getting everything at once. All powerful capstone skills. He's only one point short.

I mean realistically speaking burning bernie feels like it only exists for players who haven't cleared celestial champion or fuel weaver like he's not completely useless or anything but doesn't come close to the affinity upgrades.

As for the courier skill  I can't see myself getting it at it's current point cost unless I'm playing with friends I do feel like it's worth the investment in more team oriented groups but the cost feels too steep otherwise as a lot of the more creative uses need another player and while sending Woby back home saves time it's not enough to invest that many points for me.

[Dingle]

6 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Interesting. I never thought of Burning Bernie as a capstone skill for Willow, at least not compared to the Bernie affinity skills. You can still get both affinities for Willow and Bernie while unlocking most of the essential Willow lighter perks and still have a tough and properly-aligned Bernie. I guess I normally thought of Willow's skilltree as a good example of how you can unlock most of her important skills without making any major sacrifices.

I believe Burning Bernie is intended to be a capstone. The tree very much forces you to pick between it and the affinity flames, via point costs.

The design problem there is that (almost?) no one considers Burning Bernie worth the sacrifice. Unless they can't unlock an affinity flame, maybe?

[Chewabacca]

Pretty much all of the skills in the scouting branch are solidly useful ones and will stay that way through the game, with the exception of Pioneer's Panache (assuming you're not doing melee or that you have endgame-level headgear). Jellybeans don't make the flutter strip and the bonus 50% healing obsolete, the strip is still easier to mass produce and the bonus is really nice in general. The point of the portable drying rack isn't that you get 3 free drying racks, it's that you don't have to sit at base to make the jerky. At no point does cheaper rope get less useful. Having a portable campfire just lets you save on a ton of resources forever and, like the drying rack, means you aren't as tied to a base. I don't get why it's such a huge deal that Walter has to invest 4 points in the scouting branch for the courier skill.

[JazzyGames]

9 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Pretty much all of the skills in the scouting branch are solidly useful ones and will stay that way through the game, with the exception of Pioneer's Panache (assuming you're not doing melee or that you have endgame-level headgear). Jellybeans don't make the flutter strip and the bonus 50% healing obsolete, the strip is still easier to mass produce and the bonus is really nice in general. The point of the portable drying rack isn't that you get 3 free drying racks, it's that you don't have to sit at base to make the jerky. At no point does cheaper rope get less useful. Having a portable campfire just lets you save on a ton of resources forever and, like the drying rack, means you aren't as tied to a base. I don't get why it's such a huge deal that Walter has to invest 4 points in the scouting branch for the courier skill.

I agree that the scouting skills are not entirely obsolete in the late-game, I am just much less likely to actually make use of them because there are other, more powerful options at that point. Being able to dry monster meat on the go is great but being able to dry a stack of monster meat at base and craft 40 woby snacks at a time is preferable to me later on.

Point being I don't personally find as much late-game use in the scouting skills as I do with the courier skill so it feels bad having to invest in three of them. It's not a huge deal but I would love to see the skilltree be slightly more flexible.

[Mysterious box]

25 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Pretty much all of the skills in the scouting branch are solidly useful ones and will stay that way through the game, with the exception of Pioneer's Panache (assuming you're not doing melee or that you have endgame-level headgear). Jellybeans don't make the flutter strip and the bonus 50% healing obsolete, the strip is still easier to mass produce and the bonus is really nice in general. The point of the portable drying rack isn't that you get 3 free drying racks, it's that you don't have to sit at base to make the jerky. At no point does cheaper rope get less useful. Having a portable campfire just lets you save on a ton of resources forever and, like the drying rack, means you aren't as tied to a base. I don't get why it's such a huge deal that Walter has to invest 4 points in the scouting branch for the courier skill.

The portable drying rack is a good skill but it specifically only accels if your making Walter a mobile base as if you get the rope perk a full stack of grass translates into 6 racks so running through the grassland once or twice will be enough for you to get 12 racks which translates to 24 Woby treats a day. Now obviously you'd need to go back to pick them up but with Woby's high speed that's a lot less of a issue especially if your running lunar Woby. It's actually the big highlight of Walter's skill tree each perk can compliment or replace each other.

I do agree fluttersrips are good into the late game though but more so for the %50 healing.

The hat would be good into the late game if not for planar damage ruining it's entire point but perhaps klei will fix that.

[Civecilim]

50 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Point being I don't personally find as much late-game use in the scouting skills as I do with the courier skill so it feels bad having to invest in three of them. It's not a huge deal but I would love to see the skilltree be slightly more flexible.

The new delivery skill is so jaw droppingly fantastic, l thought locking it behind 3 skills was kind of generous. Maybe if the scouting skills did *literally* nothing, I would be a little inclined to complain, but most of them feel somewhat impactful even late game. The three that I use at the end are: rope, butterfly bandage, and Woby treats. The hat perk and the drying Woby perks feel pretty worthless, especially because the rope perk makes normal drying racks considerably cheaper. The portable fire is probably 4th place for me. I have yet to try it, but having a portable cooker seems like it might be cool. I also don't know how significant the story telling buff is. I have never used the story telling perk ever.

[Koomin]

Having to actually invest in the scouting branch to get the scouting capstone feels like a logical design that shouldn't be removed.  Reducing it to 2 skills would just result in people taking drying racks and treats and not being affected by the lock at all.

The true comical calamity of the "woby here, woby there" skill is it not being in the "woby" branch despite the name.

[Walrusst]

The woby delivery skill I find is way more useful if I'm using an alternative mount to woby, given, if you were using woby to kite before you've got a problem now: Each delivery means your kiting tools gone.

So if I'm taking woby here woby there, I'm usually skipping out on the riding perks which gives me far more than enough points to take utility skills, have a good slingshot, and good ammo.

Lifes a lot better if I just decide well, one paths for me being the deliveryman with my greater than rider speed, the others for woby being the deliveryman.
+ The dismounted woby skills go so well with a beefalo.

[JazzyGames]

8 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The true comical calamity of the "woby here, woby there" skill is it not being in the "woby" branch despite the name.

Ironically that would also fix the issue of locked skills because I'm already invested in the Woby category.

[Theukon-dos]

As others have said. I think that you're underestimating the usefulness of scouting perks late-game. 30% cheaper rope is always a god-send; atleast until we get a sawmill equivelant for weaving. First aid is cheap and applies to all healing items; while also not requiring you to farm bee queen constantly. Something many players may not be able or even want to do, especially sense Walter is allergic to her. The drying rack can be treated like the portable crock pot, letting you easily make health and sanity restoring items on the go without returning to base.

 

More than that though, skill trees generally *want* to have opportunity cost associated with them. The fact that nearly everything on Walter's tree is genuinly useful is one of the best parts about it. So having to sacrifice either Slingshot strength or woby utility to get such a powerful boon is a good thing.

[_mylilsunshine_]

while it's crazy that i agree with both sides here, I do believe that the late-game stage you're basing your point on generally does not apply to all players. some wouldn't even reach the mid-game, let alone bee queen, staying perpetually in an early-game/survival stage.

jelly bean? rift gear? big base with dozens of racks? those would sound like a pipe dream for 300-hour playtime me ((I'm currently at 1000)).

so while it's absolutely valid that you can make your point from a veteran's perspective, not everyone can follow though.

my suggestion is that instead of lowering the cost, klei can buff the scout skills to justify that cost even more 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

my suggestion is that instead of lowering the cost, klei can buff the scout skills to justify that cost even more 

Honestly speaking I feel like all the scouting skills are strong enough as is the only one that could use a buff is the hat perk but that's entirely due to post rift as pre rift it's a lot stronger than people are giving it credit for.

[_mylilsunshine_]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly speaking I feel like all the scouting skills are strong enough as is the only one that could use a buff is the hat perk but that's entirely due to post rift as pre rift it's a lot stronger than people are giving it credit for.

yeah i also think that every single scout perk is great, i couldn't even buff them if i tried to. it's just that I want to contribute a suggestion to the 'lower the cost' side since i don't really feel the need to 'lower the cost'