No, we don't need to nerf Wendy's beefalo.

[Dyzrespect]

I think at the end of the day it's moot discussing damage output numbers. If the output is too powerful to the point where it makes everyone else unplayable by proxy, the numbers will be tweaked. The important feedback right now is core mechanics and design elements that likely won't ever be changed once the beta is over.

[CremeLover]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

It is pretty weird that Wendy gets her stuff pre-rift.

Is not really weird at all.

-Characters that have access to everything pre-rift:

Willow, Woodie, Wilson

-Characters that have access to part of their kit pre-rift:

Wurt (shadow), Wormwood (half Lunar tree), Winona (shadow), Walter (half of shadow), Wolfgang (affinities), Wifgrid (shadow).

-Characters that need rift to access any of their planar/post-rift perks:

Wortox.

 

Most characters have full access to their shadow line because of early pure horror, while being locked to the lunar side partly because of post-rift resources, and in the case of wolfgang in particular, planar weapons.

All the power in the skill tree of Wendy just happens to be in the shadow/lunar lines, whereas other characters like Wigfrid, WIllow, Woodie, Winona, Wurt, etc, actually get some raw power from their skilltree, instead of all being concentrated in the affinities.

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

IAlso, even if Cursed Vex + Beefalo is considered as an "ok, whatever" by the devs, it makes me wonder:

"Why should a Wendy player ever, ever pick Lunar Affinity, if Shadow Affinity gets them Cursed Vex, the strongest thing in her skill tree?"

Though maybe this covers a bigger and wider topic than just beefalo damage. I'll probably make a separate topic for this later so that beefalo can remain the focus here.

I will answer this then too, might have gone a bit too off-topic from the beefalo conversation as well.

[DaDa_waw]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

Even though it's an interesting niche, it's not one that normal people playing the game blind can find through intuition. It's the same for Warly beefalo stuff: would anyone know without looking at the wiki to feed half the damage boosting stuff to him and half to the beefalo?

I am using Punching in this game to test the synergy between Warly and Bull, and directly denying the possibility is irresponsible.

I support KLei's need to make some strange data obvious, but I do not support cutting an existing part into the skill tree and letting players redeem this content with their already limited insight points. This is an obviously unreasonable part, and there is no reason to pay for KLei's mistakes because of the character's inherent strengths.

I think this synergistic effect can be directly written in the Abigail section of the encyclopedia. Similar to: "Abigail will provide more effective strikes for Wendy's companions. Abigail has a closer relationship with Wendy, which will give Wendy and her mount a stronger boost than ordinary people”

[Evelo]

5 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

I have never before seen this proposal to nerf one of Wendy's core synergies

I've always wanted the Wendy Beefalo synergy to be nerfed to "this makes sense" levels. Her benefiting from Abbys Vex but not suffering from her -25% Damage has always irked me. Beefalo completely negate the downsides of characters and only add benefits. Granted I've never advocated for purely wendy, but every character in general. Beefalo are far too powerful given the lack of difficulty in acquiring and maintaining them. At least in my opinion. I know plenty of people disagree and well it's just that. A pointless disagreement where compromise seems to be impossible to satisfy both parties because you only have 1) Keep it the way it is, or 2) Change it which given the two parties, it's not possible to satisfy both simultaneously.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, CremeLover said:

Is not really weird at all.

-Characters that have access to everything pre-rift:

Willow, Woodie, Wilson

-Characters that have access to part of their kit pre-rift:

Wurt (shadow), Wormwood (half Lunar tree), Winona (shadow), Walter (half of shadow), Wolfgang (affinities), Wifgrid (shadow).

-Characters that need rift to access any of their planar/post-rift perks:

Wortox.

 

Most characters have full access to their shadow line because of early pure horror, while being locked to the lunar side partly because of post-rift resources, and in the case of wolfgang in particular, planar weapons.

All the power in the skill tree of Wendy just happens to be in the shadow/lunar lines, whereas other characters like Wigfrid, WIllow, Woodie, Winona, Wurt, etc, actually get some raw power from their skilltree, instead of all being concentrated in the affinities.

I will answer this then too, might have gone a bit too off-topic from the beefalo conversation as well.

Some of these are pretty questionable. The main thing is it's ignoring that many in that list get their weaker stuff pre rift.

Wigfrid's shadow song? Technically true but also lol.

I agree she's not completely unique due to Willow and Woodie. It still felt weird to me that out of the 3 new characters, she's the one that gets all her best things pre rift. This is with counting lunar elixir as something she can't get pre rift. You can, but its a stretch that I don't think people would actually do for lunar elixirs.

I'll make that separate thread later!

[Captain_Rage]

6 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

Abigail is specifically designed to not be easily survivable in every boss fight.

Oh, you almost had me there.

[JazzyGames]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

I've always wanted the Wendy Beefalo synergy to be nerfed to "this makes sense" levels. Her benefiting from Abbys Vex but not suffering from her -25% Damage has always irked me. Beefalo completely negate the downsides of characters and only add benefits. Granted I've never advocated for purely wendy, but every character in general. Beefalo are far too powerful given the lack of difficulty in acquiring and maintaining them. At least in my opinion. I know plenty of people disagree and well it's just that. A pointless disagreement where compromise seems to be impossible to satisfy both parties because you only have 1) Keep it the way it is, or 2) Change it which given the two parties, it's not possible to satisfy both simultaneously.

Correct me if I’m reading this incorrectly but it sounds like our issue is more generally regarding beefalo, yes? If so then perhaps the solution might not involve a character-specific adjustment?

[Well-met]

beefs are busted in general especially since yotb

[Evelo]

25 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Correct me if I’m reading this incorrectly but it sounds like our issue is more generally regarding beefalo, yes? If so then perhaps the solution might not involve a character-specific adjustment?

Yeah this is correct. The core issue I believe lies on the Beefalo rather than individual characters. Well in Wendy's case it seems to be a bug, but for Maxwell, Wormwood, Wes, and Wendy it seems more like a counter to their particular downsides. All bonuses, no penalties sort of situation.

Though I will admit that since Rifts and the planar damage was introduced this massively nerfed the Beefalo's power in the late game, though since the introduction of the saddle giving the Beefalo planar damage, their late game viability shot back up which made quite a number of players happy but upset me (and I think a few others) with regard to general balancing.

[Theukon-dos]

28 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Correct me if I’m reading this incorrectly but it sounds like our issue is more generally regarding beefalo, yes? If so then perhaps the solution might not involve a character-specific adjustment?

Eh.

 

I've seen people talk about nerfing Wendy and beefalo quite a bit, but my circled are definitly biased in the matter. The real hitch is that Klei's been treating the term "poeer creep" as more of a power-100 yard marathon. So the strategy was a lot stronger back when it was new.

 

Personally though, I think it just feels like a weird interaction overall. It makes sense when you know how the mechanics work, but "deals less damage" is meant to be Wendy's downside, so being able to bypass it so eaily feels weird.

 

And as for beef adjustment vs. Wendy adjustment, the problem is that no other characters have this sort of interaction. Remember when Wanda released and Klei opted to completely rework hitstun because of how strong the alarming clocks range was and thus made tons if enemies more annoying to fight and forcing themselves to also rework the Ancient Guardian fight?

 

Because I do. And while obviously changing beefalo themselves wouldn't be nearly as drastic, there's still no point in burning down the whole forst just to get rid of a a single weed.

[Steorra]

5 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

but "deals less damage" is meant to be Wendy's downside, so being able to bypass it so eaily feels weird.

 

Beefalo does same thing to Maxwell Wes and Walter in this aspect tbh.

[Steorra]

7 hours ago, Evelo said:

but upset me (and I think a few others) with regard to general balancing.

I have a simple question - have you ever tame a beefalo yourself, craft the saddle yourself and fighting with it in endgame?

It seems most of the people who feel dissatisfied to beefalo balance would rarely tame a beefalo themselves in every single world.

 

[Evelo]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

I have a simple question - have you ever tame a beefalo yourself, craft the saddle yourself and fighting with it in endgame?

It seems most of the people who feel dissatisfied to beefalo balance would rarely tame a beefalo themselves in every single world.

Yes. I have before. Numerous times. I now exclusively temporarily tame beefalo to move marble statues and Celestial Altars. Beefalo can be fully domesticated with little to no issue at all. Beefalo can be maintained with little to no issue so long as you have hearty vegie foods like Dragonpie (which shocker, is stupid easy to mass produce).

So as kindly as I can put it, shut it with the assumptive jabs at people. Assumptions help no one, so don't make them.

(This could be a translation issue, I don't know if it is. If it is, I am sorry. Your message was dramatically changed during the translation process)

[Steorra]

37 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Yes. I have before. Numerous times. I now exclusively temporarily tame beefalo to move marble statues and Celestial Altars. Beefalo can be fully domesticated with little to no issue at all. Beefalo can be maintained with little to no issue so long as you have hearty vegie foods like Dragonpie (which shocker, is stupid easy to mass produce).

It is quite strange that when we talking about ornery beefalo with war saddle in the thread, you give an example without both ornery and war saddle.

 

12 hours ago, Evelo said:

the lack of difficulty in acquiring

And I have no ideas about how to obtain war saddle in a default setting world by "lack of difficulty".

10 hours ago, Evelo said:

Though I will admit that since Rifts and the planar damage was introduced this massively nerfed the Beefalo's power in the late game, though since the introduction of the saddle giving the Beefalo planar damage, their late game viability shot back up which made quite a number of players happy but upset me (and I think a few others) with regard to general balancing.

And the Shadow saddle give few helps toward post-rift bosses, which with a scythe Wes DPS level (funny DPS). I don't think it's a "balance issue".

[Blue Tangerine]

It's ironic to see people who keep yelling "nerf" and "op" to Wendy's vex advantage which has existed ever since her rework while they intentionally ignore that the vex is tightly attached to Abigail,who is still below the level of strong or fun.Even more sarcasmly, those topic are not seen as "off topic". I wonder where are those people who keep screaming"Wendy has occupied too much attention and space that belongs to Wortox and Walter" now. It seems that what they want is not equality for characters,what they really want is mindlessly nerfing and messing Wendy's skill tree.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

It's ironic to see people who keep yelling "nerf" and "op" to Wendy's vex advantage which has existed ever since her rework while they intentionally ignore that the vex is tightly attached to Abigail,who is still below the level of strong or fun.Even more sarcasmly, those topic are not seen as "off topic". I wonder where are those people who keep screaming"Wendy has occupied too much attention and space that belongs to Wortox and Walter" now. It seems that what they want is not equality for characters,what they really want is mindlessly nerfing and messiand Wendy's skill tree.

Shocking truth: to nerf Wendy is far more important than rise people's attention toward Wortox and Walter.

[Blue Tangerine]

17 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Shocking truth: to nerf Wendy is far more important than rise people's attention toward Wortox and Walter.

Yeah, I posted a discussion about possible skins of Trusty Slingshots yesterday, which is kinda neutral since it didn't include anything about skill tree. A funny thing is ,I found out that even this discussion was supposed to bring plenty of attentions since there were so many people shouting"I am fed up with this Wendy thing, just move on to Walter and Wortox" , in reality it didn't do so. Only a few people participated in , much less than those who still talking about nerfing Wendy. Personally I think they are not done with nerfing even after Shadow Abigail was already nerfed, they just switch the nerfing thing to Wendy's beefalo.I think that is ridiculous.