What are Wolfgang's disadvantages?

[Cheggf]

23 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Go dream on. If you can't even overcome Wolfgang's shortcomings, how can you still entertain the delusion of playing other characters well?

You're the guy who's constantly dying because in winter you start freezing after 18 minutes and 40 seconds instead of 19 minutes and 50 seconds.

19 minutes ago, Ratituee said:

"lifts a ton of time lifting weights" is a massive stretch considering it takes all of about 12 seconds with the worst dumbbell, and his 2x damage mult is pretty much free while other high-damage characters have to jump through significantly more hoops to deal 2/3 of wolfgang's output. he gets less good late-game, but is easily one of the best characters (with his skill tree) in early game.

The only characters with 2/3 of Wolfgang's output are Wigfrid who gets it passively or unmounted Wendy who gets it passively

[Yifei_]

8 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

You're the guy who's constantly dying because in winter you start freezing after 18 minutes and 40 seconds instead of 19 minutes and 50 seconds.

Oh, you've realized that the point you raised baselessly doesn't hold water, and that you yourself lack actual combat experience, so you're trying to change the subject, right? You are really interesting. Please continue your performance.

[DegenerateFurry]

20 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

by this extension, what are wilsons, willow, wendy, wx, wickerbotom.....and all the others downsides?

Wilson doesn't have one aside from being basic. He also doesn't really have much in the way of truly impactful upsides. 

Willow's downside is winter being worse and having low max sanity. It's not the most noticeable, especially because she has Bernie to take care of sanity monsters for her.

Wendy's downside is lower damage and, more impactfully, needing to keep Abigail alive if she doesn't want to feel that lower damage. It can be a struggle to do certain bosses as Wendy because of how sucky she is without Abigail. That requirement meaningfully changes her playstyle if you want to stay effective.

WX-78's downsides are numerous. You start off weak, with relatively low stats, and you take an obnoxiously long time to charge up your circuits. Getting wet makes you lose charge and damages you, so you really don't want to be more than even a little wet, especially due to losing charges. Charges are hard to restore through anything other than time without the help of a Wickerbottom or Winona (you need to eat volt goat milk). Switching out your circuits deletes a quarter of their durability and also nukes your charge bar, so you're pretty strongly discouraged by design (intentionally or not) to just pick whatever circuits you feel are the most useful and never remove them. If you're most people, that means WX-78's upsides are being fast and maybe seeing in the dark. Well, that and having longer to get full stats out of your food. 

Wickerbottom's downside is simple: sanity management. Hers is by far the most difficult in the game if you're actually using her books, which... you should be, because why play Wickerbottom if you're not using her books? Because she can't sleep, she has to fight sanity monsters constantly until she gets either a very productive sanity food farm, the Bone Helm, or both. Having to constantly fight things that mobs don't attack is meaningful for her, too, unlike with Wolfgang (who can sleep): Wickerbottom has no way to multiply her own damage and also has lower-than-normal max HP. Oh, and she also doesn't like stale food. 

I don't know if you actually want to know the rest of the cast's downsides, but I did talk a lot about Wanda's earlier in this thread. 

[gaymime]

53 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Oh, tell me about it! Hell, I'd take just being guaranteed a volt goat horn drop every other goat killed. Y'know, instead of killing four goats (leaving one alive) and that annoying 25% chance tormenting me by not even giving me a single horn. 
Or the ability to make things wet by throwing water balloons at them, that'd be sweet too. 

hi, local wes here; i second the plea for more waterballoon use! let me splash all the things!

[WenericMember]

13 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

His biggest downside is having the worst skill tree. Wilson is a close second though.

Don't mention the first skill tree... You'll summon him...

 

Joking aside. I feel Wolf's negligable downside is balanced somewhat by basically having no utility. Like sure he has some qol in transportation and resources gathering, but other than marble armour if feels like none of it actually buffs him imo.

He is literally bigger number the character, and is a big enough outlier that he shouldn't really be discussed in regards to character balance.

[SilverSpoon]

Definitely someone will shoot me for saying this, but Wolfgang is the anchor of balance so he's not OP no matter how strong he is, and also comparing him to other characters is pretty pointless.

[Anis5240]

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Don't mention the first skill tree... You'll summon him...

Wow, afraid of getting my attention? TOO LATE.

[Edible Coal]

3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Don't mention the first skill tree... You'll summon him...

 

Joking aside. I feel Wolf's negligable downside is balanced somewhat by basically having no utility. Like sure he has some qol in transportation and resources gathering, but other than marble armour if feels like none of it actually buffs him imo.

He is literally bigger number the character, and is a big enough outlier that he shouldn't really be discussed in regards to character balance.

yeah, is kinda strage that wolfgang downside is dont have other character abilities, which sorta tells how much stronger characters are now

[Mysterious box]

11 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Don't mention the first skill tree... You'll summon him...

 

Joking aside. I feel Wolf's negligable downside is balanced somewhat by basically having no utility. Like sure he has some qol in transportation and resources gathering, but other than marble armour if feels like none of it actually buffs him imo.

He is literally bigger number the character, and is a big enough outlier that he shouldn't really be discussed in regards to character balance.

This doesn't really work when you compare his to characters like Wendy or Willow who also have negligible downsides and are currently very powerful and has a lot of utility. It's clear Wolfgang, Wormwood's, and Wendy's initial builds were closer to how Klei wanted to handle skill trees for characters they felt didn't need a powerup but at least in the case of the latter two the community made it clear they weren't going to accept that which is still why I'm expecting a 3rd round of refreshes some time after skill trees finish up. I will say though I feel like what should have happened was a middle ground between Wolfgang's skill tree and Wormwood's and Wendy's.

15 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Wendy's downside is lower damage and, more impactfully, needing to keep Abigail alive if she doesn't want to feel that lower damage. It can be a struggle to do certain bosses as Wendy because of how sucky she is without Abigail. That requirement meaningfully changes her playstyle if you want to stay effective.

Isn't this more or less removed with her current skill tree?

 

15 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Willow's downside is winter being worse and having low max sanity. It's not the most noticeable, especially because she has Bernie to take care of sanity monsters for her.

Ever since her fire immunity was added back she was always the best winter pick due to how well she synergized with winter gear. Post skill tree however fireball just makes both her low max sanity and winter a joke.

 

15 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Wickerbottom's downside is simple: sanity management. Hers is by far the most difficult in the game if you're actually using her books, which... you should be, because why play Wickerbottom if you're not using her books? Because she can't sleep, she has to fight sanity monsters constantly until she gets either a very productive sanity food farm, the Bone Helm, or both. Having to constantly fight things that mobs don't attack is meaningful for her, too, unlike with Wolfgang (who can sleep): Wickerbottom has no way to multiply her own damage and also has lower-than-normal max HP. Oh, and she also doesn't like stale food. 

I'm conflicted on Wickerbottom her no sleep downside has slowly become a upside due to certain interactions with lunar content that being said I don't think sanity manage really qualifies as a Wickerbottom downside unless we also consider it a downside for Maxwell as well her books are simply resources she can make use of no different from magic equipment like darkswords or desperation foods like glommer goop. That being said if Klei.

I'd more or less rank these downsides as just as inconsequential as Wolfgang's downsides

16 hours ago, Ratituee said:

why does everyone hate his skill tree anyway? do they want him to have a bunch of special combat moves, dozens of weird dumbbells, and gyms for beefalos? its simple but that's why i like it. most skill trees add too many small, useless abilities onto characters that already have a lot on their plate. his adds a few major abilities (instant mine/chop, lift up to 150 mightyness, run faster in normal mode)

Let me ask you a better question is Wolfgang fun? Is there anything in particular that you specifically like about Wolfgang? If the answer is sure I like Wolfgang because he hits hard well a bunch of characters hit hard now so what's he really got going for him? Is rng working fun? Is a useless mightiness cap boost fun? How about lowering your mightiness for a speed boost that'll only really be useful for travel. He was held back because he was "too strong" but now everyone ones really strong and he's just left feeling as bland as he always was.

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

This doesn't really work when you compare his to characters like Wendy or Willow who also have negligible downsides and are currently very powerful and has a lot of utility. It's clear Wolfgang, Wormwood's, and Wendy's initial builds were closer to how Klei wanted to handle skill trees for characters they felt didn't need a powerup but at least in the case of the latter two the community made it clear they weren't going to accept that which is still why I'm expecting a 3rd round of refreshes some time after skill trees finish up. I will say though I feel like what should have happened was a middle ground between Wolfgang's skill tree and Wormwood's and Wendy's.

Isn't this more or less removed with her current skill tree?

 

Ever since her fire immunity was added back she was always the best winter pick due to how well she synergized with winter gear. Post skill tree however fireball just makes both her low max sanity and winter a joke.

 

I'm conflicted on Wickerbottom her no sleep downside has slowly become a upside due to certain interactions with lunar content that being said I don't think sanity manage really qualifies as a Wickerbottom downside unless we also consider it a downside for Maxwell as well her books are simply resources she can make use of no different from magic equipment like darkswords or desperation foods like glommer goop. That being said if Klei.

I'd more or less rank these downsides as just as inconsequential as Wolfgang's downsides

Let me ask you a better question is Wolfgang fun? Is there anything in particular that you specifically like about Wolfgang? If the answer is sure I like Wolfgang because he hits hard well a bunch of characters hit hard now so what's he really got going for him? Is rng working fun? Is a useless mightiness cap boost fun? How about lowering your mightiness for a speed boost that'll only really be useful for travel. He was held back because he was "too strong" but now everyone ones really strong and he's just left feeling as bland as he always was.

Wendy's in a similar enough boat to Wolfgang where a skilled player can completely negate her downside, and even then she now has a res, haunt, night vision, encumbered speed, regen, easy booster shots, movable graves, reduced sanity drain, neutrality to ghosts and free AOE.

She's def on the lower end of the spectrum, but she has a bunch more utility to wolfgang.

Willow, I have no idea why you chose her as a comparison, she's one of the best characters for utility, upgraded torch, fuel efficiency, controlled burn, fireball, overheating resistance, cooking speed, items still being dropped by burned enemies, hungry lighter, a 2000hp taunt in Bernie, and bonus sanity from being near fire.

Also, we've had specific confirmation from Jason that's not the case. Jason explciitly stated that they intentionally undertuned Wendy's skill tree at the start of Beta because buffing is easier than nerfing, and they went too far in that regard. So that's really not the "intended design"

9 hours ago, Anis5240 said:

Wow, afraid of getting my attention? TOO LATE.

Horror Movie Music Intensifies

[loopuleasa]

Inconvenience and boredom

[Bumber64]

17 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Wilson doesn't have one aside from being basic. He also doesn't really have much in the way of truly impactful upsides.

Not shaving his beard could be bad in summer.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Wendy's in a similar enough boat to Wolfgang where a skilled player can completely negate her downside, and even then she now has a res, haunt, night vision, encumbered speed, regen, easy booster shots, movable graves, reduced sanity drain, neutrality to ghosts and free AOE.

She's def on the lower end of the spectrum, but she has a bunch more utility to wolfgang.

Wendy is far from being on the lower end of the spectrum on both power and utility post skill tree.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Willow, I have no idea why you chose her as a comparison, she's one of the best characters for utility, upgraded torch, fuel efficiency, controlled burn, fireball, overheating resistance, cooking speed, items still being dropped by burned enemies, hungry lighter, a 2000hp taunt in Bernie, and bonus sanity from being near fire.

Did you just forget all the abilities you listed for Wendy not including her sanity station, aoe panic, and possibly more I'm forgetting at the moment Wendy is a great utility character just like Willow except Wendy has more individual abilities.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Also, we've had specific confirmation from Jason that's not the case. Jason explciitly stated that they intentionally undertuned Wendy's skill tree at the start of Beta because buffing is easier than nerfing, and they went too far in that regard. So that's really not the "intended design"

Which was said after heavy backlash to them saying that since Wendy was one of the stronger characters they planned to give her a weaker skill tree.

That being said the goal wasn't to just make this about Wendy it's about how poorly Wolfgang's skill tree holds up to the rest of them atm.

[WenericMember]

45 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Wendy is far from being on the lower end of the spectrum on both power and utility post skill tree.

Did you just forget all the abilities you listed for Wendy not including her sanity station, aoe panic, and possibly more I'm forgetting at the moment Wendy is a great utility character just like Willow except Wendy has more individual abilities.

Which was said after heavy backlash to them saying that since Wendy was one of the stronger characters they planned to give her a weaker skill tree.

That being said the goal wasn't to just make this about Wendy it's about how poorly Wolfgang's skill tree holds up to the rest of them atm.

Wait I'm confused. I don't think we're actually disagreeing.  Wendy and Wormwood are plenty strong characters. I mistook what you were objecting to.

IMO survivors are balanced by a three way triangle between Combat, Utility and Accessibility. Wolfgang has Damage & Accessibility for that damage, but sacrifices utility. Modern Wendy (where baseline survival isn't a meaningful upside), has damage and Utility, but low  accessibility - necessitating keeping a follower alive, sacrificing critters, expensive potions, mg quests, knowing haunt interactions, micromanaging etc. Since Wendy's much harder to get her maximum out of, she has higher overall diversity.

I don't really play enough wormwood to comment on his tree though.

Also, if you believe that the devs were lying about their intentions with the tree due to damage control, go ahead, I can't dispute that claim, but I don't belive it.

But I will dispute the comparison about Wolfgang and Wendy's tree's being the same - they have opposite design problems. Wendy's tree was about 80% mechanically fine (at least in theory) from the start, with a bunch of interesting skills. They were just weak to the point of irrelevance (100hp Blessed Sisturn 3, 5 Planar Defense, Vex duration, etc). Wolfgang on the other hand was balanced perfectly fine - the tree gives perks on par with the best, but has absolutely no mechanical depth. If they stemmed from the same problem, they wouldn't be opposites in this regard.

[Mysterious box]

44 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

IMO survivors are balanced by a three way triangle between Combat, Utility and Accessibility. Wolfgang has Damage & Accessibility for that damage, but sacrifices utility. Modern Wendy (where baseline survival isn't a meaningful upside), has damage and Utility, but low  accessibility - necessitating keeping a follower alive, sacrificing critters, expensive potions, mg quests, knowing haunt interactions, micromanaging etc. Since Wendy's much harder to get her maximum out of, she has higher overall diversity.

Her high accessibility is the main reason she's so popular and her potions aren't expensive as of her skill tree. The only accessibility issue she has is taming a beefalo but that's only for min maxing beyond her base abilities anyway and even then beefalo taming has gotten a lot easier over time. Balancing accessibility around min maxing is a hard thing to do regardless as you could say technically Maxwell has a harder time in that area since min maxing for him requires the bone helm. I'd say while not entirely her skill tree sanded down her complexity a by a fair amount it still exists just her current abilities don't require it which may be for the best depending on how you look at it.

 

52 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Also, if you believe that the devs were lying about their intentions with the tree due to damage control, go ahead, I can't dispute that claim, but I don't belive it.

I'm just saying the order of events that took place how that's interpreted is up to you besides it's not entirely impossible that both statements are true to an extent.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

But I will dispute the comparison about Wolfgang and Wendy's tree's being the same - they have opposite design problems. Wendy's tree was about 80% mechanically fine (at least in theory) from the start, with a bunch of interesting skills. They were just weak to the point of irrelevance (100hp Blessed Sisturn 3, 5 Planar Defense, Vex duration, etc). Wolfgang on the other hand was balanced perfectly fine - the tree gives perks on par with the best, but has absolutely no mechanical depth. If they stemmed from the same problem, they wouldn't be opposites in this regard.

I think you misunderstood what I meant with the comparison here I'm saying their skill tree designs should have met somewhere in the middle not that their skill tree designs are the same.

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Her high accessibility is the main reason she's so popular and her potions aren't expensive as of her skill tree. The only accessibility issue she has is taming a beefalo but that's only for min maxing beyond her base abilities anyway and even then beefalo taming has gotten a lot easier over time. Balancing accessibility around min maxing is a hard thing to do regardless as you could say technically Maxwell has a harder time in that area since min maxing for him requires the bone helm. I'd say while not entirely her skill tree sanded down her complexity a by a fair amount it still exists just her current abilities don't require it which may be for the best depending on how you look at it.

 

I'm just saying the order of events that took place how that's interpreted is up to you besides it's not entirely impossible that both statements are true to an extent.

I think you misunderstood what I meant with the comparison here I'm saying their skill tree designs should have met somewhere in the middle not that their skill tree designs are the same.

Her high accessibility is for baseline survival. Beyond that, no? Other than killing hordes none of Wendy's kit is "accessible" compared to other survivors. 

Wolfgangs 2.0x+ damage requirements: Hold right click

Wendy's 2.0x+ damage requirements: Kite with Abigail, craft and utilize potions (requiring pipspooks), one of which is locked behind a  boss or rifts, gather and sacrifice a bunch of small creatures, find and tame a beefalo.

Wolfgangs Utility requirements: Hold Right Click

Wendy's Utility Requirements: craft wraith's wreath, craft and utilise potions, use your headgear slot, etc.

There's a lot of disagreement on how much baseline survival is worth now days, especially in a post rift environment, and that's the only accessible part of Wendy's kit.

[Mysterious box]

59 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

tame a beefalo.

Again this is as much of a requirment as the bone helm to Maxwell

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Wolfgangs Utility requirements: Hold Right Click

That's specifically because he lacks so much utility compared to every other character you can't put a cost on something that doesn't exist unlike Wendy who has a literal basket of abilities.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

craft wraith's wreath, craft and utilise potions, use your headgear slot, etc.

Considering the effects this is very minor especially compared to characters with similar abilities like Warly and Wx.

 

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Her high accessibility is for baseline survival. Beyond that, no? Other than killing hordes none of Wendy's kit is "accessible" compared to other survivors. 

Wolfgangs 2.0x+ damage requirements: Hold right click

Wendy's 2.0x+ damage requirements: Kite with Abigail, craft and utilize potions (requiring pipspooks), one of which is locked behind a  boss or rifts, gather and sacrifice a bunch of small creatures, find and tame a beefalo.

Wolfgangs Utility requirements: Hold Right Click

Wendy's Utility Requirements: craft wraith's wreath, craft and utilise potions, use your headgear slot, etc.

There's a lot of disagreement on how much baseline survival is worth now days, especially in a post rift environment, and that's the only accessible part of Wendy's kit.

Also it's far beyond baseline survival Abigial crushes mostly anything you'll encounter below the boss level and has a easy time with most bosses post skill tree that's not baseline.

That being said I'm tired of discussing Wendy she was just meant to be used in reference to what's wrong with the current design of Wolfgang nothing more.

[WenericMember]

14 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Definitely someone will shoot me for saying this, but Wolfgang is the anchor of balance so he's not OP no matter how strong he is, and also comparing him to other characters is pretty pointless.

I kinda get what your saying?

Wolfgang's the 'cap' in a sense. There is no scenario where a character should be dealing more damage than wolfgang. 

Similarly I would call Wickerbottom the "cap" of utility. In practice basically none of her perks are particularly strong in boss combat, aside from a cheaper Pan Flute,  so no-one should realistically have more utility than wickerbottom.

And by giving Maxwell access to her books, Maxwell breaks that cap.

[Hungry French]

There are none  Play Uncompromissing Mode

[Yifei_]

On 1/20/2025 at 8:30 PM, Hungry French said:

There are none  Play Uncompromissing Mode

The changes to Wolfgang in UM are quite complex. The strength value has been completely altered; it seems to have become a consumable. For example, chopping trees appears to consume strength rather than increase it. In addition to that, there are some flashy skills like the powerful leap, and the affinity skills have also undergone significant changes. I haven't tried Wolfgang in UM yet, but I'll give it a go if I get the chance.

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

The changes to Wolfgang in UM are quite complex. The strength value has been completely altered; it seems to have become a consumable. For example, chopping trees appears to consume strength rather than increase it. In addition to that, there are some flashy skills like the powerful leap, and the affinity skills have also undergone significant changes. I haven't tried Wolfgang in UM yet, but I'll give it a go if I get the chance.

He's not that complex. For the most part he works like pre-refresh Wolfgang with his form being based on hunger, with said hunger draining faster when mighty. And as you said, the mightiness meter is a resource that lets him perform feats of strength, such as mining/chopping resources instantly, leaping great distances, and performing extra powerful attacks that even boost planar damage.

 

Plus, the rework was designed with skill trees in mind, which means Wolfgang's is actually interesting. Still not as flashy as some, but it's still far better than vanilla's skill tree.

 

He's a bit weaker in the damage department overall, but trades it for some great and novel utility. Which is really what Klei should have done from the start.

[Peasant]

He turns all who plays him potato headed, that's the downside

[Dandefender]

His current version really makes his sanity downside absolutely irrelevant. And frankly, any average player knows he is just a S+ Vanilla Wilson.

Since his first rework I've always thought that they should tweak that disadvantage to be a bit more about "risk" of fighting nightmare creatures than just "sanity drain" to balance it out.

(Receives 5-10% more damage from them based on mighty meter? Chance of showing up more terrorbeaks if insane for too long?)

[Cheggf]

On 1/29/2025 at 6:47 AM, Dandefender said:

And frankly, any average player knows he is just a S+ Vanilla Wilson.

You're right, the average player does think that Wolfgang is S+ vanilla Wilson. The average player also dies during the first autumn then disconnects. 

[Guille6785]

I will forever die on the hill that pre-rework wolfgang was a perfectly balanced character and simply needed a few additions to be less solo oriented