Nerf Maxwell and Wanda

[Jakepeng99]

You are giving them a skilltree anyway. No matter how weak, it wil make them so overpowered. Even the mere alignment damage increase.

I suggest nerfing Wanda's weapon alot so it is just another option rather than her main weapon. She didnt really need one in the first place.

For Maxwell give him a downside.

[deemo_]

In a PvE game like DST where balancing doesn't really affect anyone except the player playing the nerfed character, I don't think straight up nerfing characters is really a good idea. Maxwell's downside is that he has 75 max health, which is quite a significant downside if you're not a 1K hour forumite. 

I'm all for rebalancing characters to meet similar power levels, as Wanda's ability to teleport, do large damage and support others (revival watch) shows that she's a glaring example of power creep. I would prefer a buff to weaker characters over nerfs to stronger ones. Nerfing characters only hurts the mains of those characters instead of helping the mains of the weaker characters.

[Steorra]

If you want to nerf Maxwell I have no argument with that, but abiut Wanda, have you ever played as Wanda in post-rift endgame? If you insist to nerf her, I would ask to nerf Jakepeng99 first.

[ShadowDuelist]

Maxwell need a “quest” nerf not an actual nerf. What I mean is that he comes out of spawn already equipped with everything unlike most characters that have to do “stuff” to achieve their power.

I think he should come out of spawn only with the codex umbra and no extra fuel. And the codex should have the workers and shadow sneak skills only.
 

You unlock shadow prison at a full pseudoscience and shadow duelists at a shadow manipulator. That will tone down the early game of maxwell a lot to be more in line of the early game of most characters,  without damaging his potential.

If you wanna go the full hard start, make him spawn without a codex umbra, with nothing at hand. And once he crafts it, he has to do the above to unlock its full potential. At 75 HP that will give him quite a humble start and will feel a lot more challenging to begin with.

[SilverSpoon]

Nerf a character in order to make them buff is just putting the cart before the horse.

It just make the skill tree "____ up, and ____ down." or "In exchange for being able to do ____, you won't be able to do ____"

[ChintzyGnat]

Wanda??? Stg everyone hasn't even played her since rifts especially and just hop on the bandwagon that she's op.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, deemo_ said:

In a PvE game like DST where balancing doesn't really affect anyone except the player playing the nerfed character, I don't think straight up nerfing characters is really a good idea. Maxwell's downside is that he has 75 max health, which is quite a significant downside if you're not a 1K hour forumite. 

I'm all for rebalancing characters to meet similar power levels, as Wanda's ability to teleport, do large damage and support others (revival watch) shows that she's a glaring example of power creep. I would prefer a buff to weaker characters over nerfs to stronger ones. Nerfing characters only hurts the mains of those characters instead of helping the mains of the weaker characters.

Powercreep makes the game less fun because it just makes the game too easy, and puts too much focus onto your charavters abilities since they are the best tools you have.

Its not just about competitiveness. Powercreep will slowly chew at the game, and adding harder challenges in the form of riff content is not the solution if it makes the rest of the game more simple.

9 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said:

Wanda??? Stg everyone hasn't even played her since rifts especially and just hop on the bandwagon that she's op.

I kinda wish she was not designed to have the alarming clock, and was just designed to use shadow weapons in general.

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

If you insist to nerf her, I would ask to nerf Jakepeng99 first.

Ill be honest, i find you really funny.

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Maxwell need a “quest” nerf not an actual nerf. What I mean is that he comes out of spawn already equipped with everything unlike most characters that have to do “stuff” to achieve their power.

I think he should come out of spawn only with the codex umbra and no extra fuel. And the codex should have the workers and shadow sneak skills only.
 

You unlock shadow prison at a full pseudoscience and shadow duelists at a shadow manipulator. That will tone down the early game of maxwell a lot to be more in line of the early game of most characters,  without damaging his potential.

If you wanna go the full hard start, make him spawn without a codex umbra, with nothing at hand. And once he crafts it, he has to do the above to unlock its full potential. At 75 HP that will give him quite a humble start and will feel a lot more challenging to begin with.

I think a way to nerf him would be limiting the shadow prison, and making spells impossible to use at 0 sainity, and a new downside.

 

Ideas for downsides:

1. Lunar related downsides.

2. Smoking addiction (this ones kinda bad, just an idea since he smokes)

3. Downsides for being unhealthy and weak. He works slower and inefficently, while losing sainity from working, encouraging him to use his followers.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, deemo_ said:

In a PvE game like DST where balancing doesn't really affect anyone except the player playing the nerfed character, I don't think straight up nerfing characters is really a good idea. Maxwell's downside is that he has 75 max health, which is quite a significant downside if you're not a 1K hour forumite. 

I'm all for rebalancing characters to meet similar power levels, as Wanda's ability to teleport, do large damage and support others (revival watch) shows that she's a glaring example of power creep. I would prefer a buff to weaker characters over nerfs to stronger ones. Nerfing characters only hurts the mains of those characters instead of helping the mains of the weaker characters.

This logic only works for a single player game in multiplayer game having wildly unbalanced characters impacts everyone involved that being said the cast is already wildly unbalanced so I guess it's pointless to bring up.

 

That aside how do people still feel Wanda is too strong...

2 hours ago, ChintzyGnat said:

Wanda??? Stg everyone hasn't even played her since rifts especially and just hop on the bandwagon that she's op.

Agreed Wanda's actually been powercrept hard

[AriaMain]

Nerfing Wanda and Maxwell is not gonna fix the powercreep problem i'll tell you that much

[GrapeVruit]

1 hour ago, AriaMain said:

Nerfing Wanda and Maxwell is not gonna fix the powercreep problem i'll tell you that much

Then what will? 

[Well-met]

if you think klei nerfs characters anymore, you haven't been paying attention.

[Mike23Ua]

8 hours ago, deemo_ said:

In a PvE game like DST where balancing doesn't really affect anyone except the player playing the nerfed character, I don't think straight up nerfing characters is really a good idea. Maxwell's downside is that he has 75 max health, which is quite a significant downside if you're not a 1K hour forumite. 

I'm all for rebalancing characters to meet similar power levels, as Wanda's ability to teleport, do large damage and support others (revival watch) shows that she's a glaring example of power creep. I would prefer a buff to weaker characters over nerfs to stronger ones. Nerfing characters only hurts the mains of those characters instead of helping the mains of the weaker characters.

Nerf Maxwell so he can’t use his own abilities + the entirety of Wickerbottoms.

And if I was a developer (which I’m not..) I’d hit him with a heavy nerf where either A: An actual Wickerbottom needs to be present and near him to help him understand sophisticated words he was far too cocky, arrogant & self-centered to know the meaning of.

Or B- I’d force him to give up his own cool skill tree related perks, in order to pick how many of wickers books he wants to master reading.

As far as Wanda goes… I don’t really know how to make suggestions for the most broken PtW character to ever exist, but if she’s advertised and sold to us as a “Glass Canon” I’d realistically expect her to play like an actual glass canon character class… and Whatever Wanda Currently is, is anything BUT that.

[Violet Desiree]

2 hours ago, GrapeVruit said:

Then what will? 

I mean willows rework has defo elevated her into not really as powerful as them but to fulfill a niche Crowd Control Wormwoods is the best farmer etc etc

getting everyone into a role might help this powercreep

[DegenerateFurry]

You're overestimating Wanda's DPS if you think her weapon needs any significant nerfs. It might have high base damage, but it swings slower, and the end result is that even old Wanda is still not hitting as hard as dark sword Wolfgang (and she has a much more significant downside).

As for nerfing Maxwell, that I can agree with. I think it's more important to remove his ability to use Wickerbottom's books, though - he's just going to make her a swap character otherwise. Maybe he could still lose sanity from reading them (to keep some of the synergy there and let him farm fuel easily), but he just has way too much going for him if he has the Codex Umbra and all the powers of her books. 

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’d hit him with a heavy nerf where either A: An actual Wickerbottom needs to be present and near him to help him understand sophisticated words he was far too cocky, arrogant & self-centered to know the meaning of.

A previous thread mentioned adding a cooldown on books. Wickerbottom picking up a book clears the cooldown.

[Castiliano]

bro
yes

Maxwell no longer needs this crutch of reading Wickerbottom's books cmon
It's HER books

[Y0sH]

I'm so tired of the bandwagoning of the "Wanda is OP" narrative. DOT Damage= Dead, Planar Damage without End Game or Dreadstone gear= Dead, Getting ate by fat boy Ink Blight= insta Dead, Getting ate by Alaskan Bull Worm= Dead, Icker fall on you= Dead. Everything I named is either an instant kill or something that can't be healed through by Wanda. 

Alarming Clock does decent damage and is refuelable by nm fuel which lets be honest is easy to get by any character at anytime. Wolfgang literally exists... Woodie Moose is a damage resistant tank with a smash combo with AOE damage and a charge. Willow Has literal homing flames, like this Wanda is OP narrative is old and literally outdated. She hasn't been "overpowered" since the year she was released and even then Wolfgang with a flat x2 dmg exists. 

Her Skilltree will most likely introduce more watch types/mechanics and the default alignment defense/damage that all players get and Maybe an Planar Alarming Clock upgrade. Even then she will just be a strong player but nowhere close to OP.

[Edible Coal]

19 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

 

I suggest nerfing Wanda's weapon alot so it is just another option rather than her main weapon. She didnt really need one in the first place.

 

now you need time piece to refuel

[Jakepeng99]

11 hours ago, Well-met said:

if you think klei nerfs characters anymore, you haven't been paying attention.

Thats why i am asking. 

10 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You're overestimating Wanda's DPS if you think her weapon needs any significant nerfs. It might have high base damage, but it swings slower, and the end result is that even old Wanda is still not hitting as hard as dark sword Wolfgang (and she has a much more significant downside).

It also has extra range which means alot more than a little dps.

[Frosty_Mentos]

Wanda's whole thing of her kit is being support and damage, she isn't the same as Maxwell who has growing power level, support abilities AND gathering abilities.

Maxwell though needs to build up his power and to go into danger for it, which is justified for him even if his minions are powerful for gathering alone he is generally frail without better protection and having the skill of knowing and avoiding the damage he can't take.

Being able to use Wicker books makes him generally ideal to play lategame cause of resource manipulation, something Wicker does the same but has no other special abilities to her apart of using them cause Max takes them. Until skilltrees were to happen that is.

---

Wanda generally is just a damage dealing like Wolfgang and does the job well. She isn't as powerful as him in regards of being consistent enough in being reliably always sustainable as she can be struck down and her death condition is either she fails her clock healing or there's enough repetition that hits her to die.

Wanda not being able to use healing food doesn't let her have quick enough heals which gives bigger advantage to other survivors and her clocks take up a lot of space so she needs to manage her inventory well enough and know what to take and when to take it, otherwise you'd be always running with useless clocks or not having them in the right places.

Wanda's teleport is nerfed to the ground and is awful. I enjoyed it as much just for resource hauling or getting to ruins really quick, but it's not something I enjoy longterm due to high cooldowns and I can always just ride with beefalo anywhere anyway.

Wanda gets a big debuff on her work damage she does to objects at old age, which if you're playing to have that high damage at all times you'd be losing out on fast enough statue or resource clear. Also Wanda's less useful without having shadow gear, there's no chance in hell we'd be running without shadow or thule as her anywhere cause of the high benefit of high armor, mobility and sanity loss reduction.

Wanda's not useful anywhere that isn't a combat scenario. She is all about killing anything or helping the team to do so. Her clock breaking from revival on herself is goofy imo, it's a dumb recipe as is and the high cooldown feels like it's enough as is. Revival amulets and effigies do a better job and lands you in a more safer position to re-coop while the watch is a high risk revival item.

Wanda's most balanced state probably is being middle aged, cause it's not on a brink of death and having more than enough health to survive with good armor basically anything. But being middle aged also doesn't unlock that high damage for quicker kills which sucks and doesn't feel as satisfying. She is stronger than Wilson, but she is only as consistently reliable in a fraction of Willow right now.

---

If you wanna argue about nerfing anything then we could talk about nerfing basically any other character that got their skilltrees right now. I think nerfing characters is boring of a take as it gets for a game like DST, in a sandbox scenario balance only goes as far as it feels satisfying to play a character.

Wanda is satisfying to a degree for me, her damage is fun to have while being on a brink of death, but she doesn't have anything else in her kit do more compared to some other characters. Her building up to power is simple enough how it is, but it's also shallow. She doesn't really compete with Wolfgang in sustain but she has more than enough of it to be on par with him.

IF you wanna argue about how to nerf a character - DON'T. Talk about how to improve the environment they fight to change the way of how they have to tackle it. Mobs gained a stun resist cause of Wanda's presence and it's a big nerf to her in general, but so did to all other characters. What we're missing is more elemental enemies as well as ranged enemies to be more of a threat. I'm talking something like bishops or fire-deer.

[Vinja]

"No matter how weak they will be so OP"

In their current state I very rarely see either of them used, so if it's a weak skill tree that doesn't add much to them they'll forever remain once-strong characters that no one really cares about anymore. That would suck.

Secondly, this isn't a competitive game. I don't know why people here care so much about "balance" but only when it applies to characters they aren't interested in playing. Willow is insanely strong. Her lunar flames decimate foes without even needing to be anywhere near their attack range. She's "OP". Wurt snowballs like crazy and destroys anything in front of her with her army of upgraded and armored up merms. She's "OP". Winona can literally melt entire raid bosses in mere seconds at the tap of a button. She's "OP". If we actually give a single crap about balance we need to start by nerfing these 3, not pre-nerfing characters who don't even have a skilltree yet.

Wanda has a unique health mechanic that makes her a challenging character to play, and Maxwell has a very low max HP making him also a challenging character to play. They're both incredibly outdated. Wanda only gets "competitively" high dps (which isn't even competitive anymore when you consider other characters skills into account) when she's low hp, and Maxwells dps potential is very high but at this point in the game there are characters who get even higher dps than he could ever hope for and are much easier to play, for example, all the characters I listed above besides maybe willow but willow can literally stand outside of range and melt anything often times without even getting hit. Who cares about dps when bringing armor and healing to a fight is OPTIONAL.

Just because a character was strong 4 years ago doesn't mean they're strong now. In my opinion this view is incredibly out of touch. These two are both outdated and need new powerful skills to get them closer in line with the new strength/fun level of other characters.

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Wanda's whole thing of her kit is being support and damage, she isn't the same as Maxwell who has growing power level, support abilities AND gathering abilities

Maxwell is fun at least since Wanda is a failure of a glass cannon due to how poorly balanced it is.. Riffs dont justify anything.

10 minutes ago, Vinja said:

No matter how weak they will be so OP"

In their current state I very rarely see either of them used, so if it's a weak skill tree that doesn't add much to them they'll forever remain once-strong characters that no one really cares about anymore. That would suck.

They dont have skilltrees and are already better than everyone who currently has one.

[ChintzyGnat]

24 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Maxwell is fun at least since Wanda is a failure of a glass cannon due to how poorly balanced it is.. Riffs dont justify anything.

They dont have skilltrees and are already better than everyone who currently has one.

Whens the last time you've played either of these 2 for a substantial amount of time?

[Frosty_Mentos]

50 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Maxwell is fun at least since Wanda is a failure of a glass cannon due to how poorly balanced it is.. Riffs dont justify anything.

They dont have skilltrees and are already better than everyone who currently has one.

I don't believe you know Wanda that well how I have from that statement. She basically has either of choice of being regular like Wilson, or level up a little higher as Wigfrid or become Wolfgang depending on your frailty.

She may not have Maxwell level of health but she is still a risk reward character. I don't understand what makes people think she isn't when they probably don't even play her old version at all. Delusional to think otherwise for how she's designed to be specifically to have her that damage condition.

[Vinja]

56 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They dont have skilltrees and are already better than everyone who currently has one.

How exactly do you figure that?