I don't understand the complaints about Walter

[aidankocherhans]

37 minutes ago, flamboyant wolf said:

a mount that's on average slower than the default beefalo

Woby's minimum speed matches the fastest beefalo

[grm9]

43 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Woby's minimum speed matches the fastest beefalo

default saddle gives a 40% speed increase and the saddle with the highest speed increase gives a 55% speed increase and you can't put a saddle onto woby, woby's max speed's 10, speed of default or not fully tamed beefalo with default saddle's 9.8 and speed of beefalo with the highest speed tendency and the highest speed increase saddle's 12.4

[Mysterious box]

20 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Because Wormwood has an alternate playstyle that doesn't make him objectively worse than Wilson in most cases, isn't actively detrimental to the resource balance in the early-game (lord knows how annoying it is when I'm playing on a Klei server and some Walter's eaten all the marble), and it can be kind of fun. 

I think there's a bit of confusion here, and it might be my fault for not putting things clearly enough: I'm not actually trying to argue that it's wrong to play Walter. I'm trying to argue that you're disincentivized from actually playing him the way he's meant to be played (using Woby, not a beefalo), and that he's too much weaker than the other characters. From a game balance perspective, it really isn't worth it to play Walter and use all your purple gems to make certain boss fights a bit easier when, if we look at what other characters can do with purple gems, they make much better use of them (such as Wanda being able to warp an entire server of players between shards and across the map, or Wolfgang making a gembell). 

He desperately needs to be buffed, and he'd probably also benefit from having some of his traits reconsidered, but that's less likely to actually happen.

Wormwood not being able to heal does make him objectively worse than Wilson this is a downside that only skill can make up for I really don't see the difference here.

I mean I think the main issue is again you comparing him to the best characters you could very easily compare his slingshot to abigial for example as there are many boss fights she can't be used in outside of very skilled player.

If the argument is that Walter is lacking in combat power or that Woby is lacking in comparison to a beefalo I agree but if the argument is that his skills don't offer enough value to the player then I disagree.

Woby despite being inferior to a beefalo comes with none of the babysitting a beefalo has especially for less careful players or people who don't want to invest too much time into mounts while offering most of the benefits having a mount would grant this is still very enticing to many players the same even applying to Woby being a portable Chester.

As for the slingshot yes it's bad at it's job of being combat tool but it still has a lot of niche uses not unlike Wendy's potions or Wolfgang's dumbells perhaps even more so.

Then there's the portable tent which is very useful for keeping his stats topped off for cheap and a great healing alternative for teammates especially Wormwoods as this means healing is more readily available for him.

There's more I could go on about like him not being affected by nightmare lights and the like but you probably get what I'm getting at what he offers is definitely good just not what you specifically are looking for.

 

[Well-met]

plus you just know he's gonna get an army of buffs with the tree so you don't have to worry for long if you don't "get" the current, old walter.

 

[aidankocherhans]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

There's more I could go on about like him not being affected by nightmare lights

This really is a nice perk, not having to worry about the ticking clock of sanity in the ruins means you can stay down there for as long as you have food, and splumonkeys aren't hard for him to kill if he needs more

[SilverSpoon]

His survival skills are well-characterized and well-balanced (though I don't like his style of waiting patiently for recovery).

The problem is that the slingshot's DPS is too low, it takes too long to make bullets, and above all, it's not fun to use the slingshot. Especially when it comes to party play, what I feel void of darkness.

The problem of comparison games like Monster Hunter which is fun even with long-range weapons, is that most of the boss characters in DST are single-target attacks. In fact, when you fight Nightmare Werepig, it's really fun even Walter because I have to dodge his attacks to other character.

[Szczuku]

Walter is playable, just like any other character.

The main issue people used to have with him was that his kit is overloaded with pers that didn't really flow into each other and were frankly randeom

Well, thanks to skill trees now every character has an overloaded kit, so who cares about walter's 

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

 

The main issue people used to have with him was that his kit is overloaded with pers that didn't really flow into each other and were frankly randeom

Honestly even before skill trees I still never understood this complaint I've asked what this means multiple times and everyone always gave a vague answer.

Though it does seem even weirder that other people still say this despite the direction Willow and Wendy took.

[Catuna_]

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Walter is playable, just like any other character.

The main issue people used to have with him was that his kit is overloaded with pers that didn't really flow into each other and were frankly randeom

Well, thanks to skill trees now every character has an overloaded kit, so who cares about walter's 

Walter is a coherent character though, I don't get people's gripe with his design. It just feels like people are echoing a youtuber's opinion

[Bumber64]

13 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Wormwood not being able to heal does make him objectively worse than Wilson this is a downside that only skill can make up for I really don't see the difference here.

I mean I think the main issue is again you comparing him to the best characters you could very easily compare his slingshot to abigial for example as there are many boss fights she can't be used in outside of very skilled player.

Wormwood also doesn't lose any health from food items, while gaining some health from fertilizers (though honey poultices remain better). So that's the downside, just like Walter has one. The difference is that Wormwood also gets a number of strong upsides (blooming, crafts, moon shrooms, etc.), whereas Walter basically just gets a bonus Chester in that department (or free inferior beefalo, if you don't want to maintain a separate one).

Abigail remains useful in every situation outside those bosses, though. (Abigail re-dying activates Wendy's only downside. She doesn't have one otherwise.) Slingshot is good in very few places. Therefore Abigail is a Woby.

It's not as if Walter has any bonus proficiency for the late game ranged weapons that everyone else has access to. He could be given an insight skill like that. But if we're going to pretend he's currently a great character, are we going to end up with a Wolfgang-style tree?

New, from the makers of dumbbell toss and torch toss comes... Woby toss! Deal minor damage to enemies while collecting items from the ground at a distance!

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Wormwood also doesn't lose any health from food items, while gaining some health from fertilizers (though honey poultices remain better). So that's the downside, just like Walter has one. The difference is that Wormwood also gets a number of strong upsides (blooming, crafts, moon shrooms, etc.), whereas Walter basically just gets a bonus Chester in that department.

Abigail remains useful in every situation outside those bosses, though. Slingshot is good in very few places.

It's not as if Walter has any bonus proficiency for the late game ranged weapons that everyone else has access to. He could be given an insight skill like that. But if we're going to pretend he's currently a great character, are we going to end up with a Wolfgang-style tree?

New, from the makers of dumbbell toss and torch toss comes... Woby toss!

Again that's debatable most of Wormwood's upsides are only useful if you have a particular playstyle and his inability to recover from common sources is a major downside to most people. For example his farming and plant crafting abilities only really matter to people who want to farm or decorate but that's a whole branch of his character thrown out if you're not interested. As for his combat abilities while they're alright in some aspects there are simply much better character options if you want a combat character without taking the risks Wormwood imposes it's really just a matter of preference. 

Walter falls under a similar catageory some people find his sanity control, portable tent, extra storage, low investment mount, and slingshot to be useful for their playstyle some don't there's really not much difference.

Also the slingshot has various uses not just a a few it not being strong doesn't automatically mean there's only a few places where it shines.

[Bumber64]

17 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Again that's debatable most of Wormwood's upsides are only useful if you have a particular playstyle and his inability to recover from common sources is a major downside to most people. For example his farming and plant crafting abilities only really matter to people who want to farm or decorate but that's a whole branch of his character thrown out if you're not interested. As for his combat abilities while they're alright in some aspects there are simply much better character options if you want a combat character without taking the risks Wormwood imposes it's really just a matter of preference. 

Walter falls under a similar catageory some people find his sanity control, portable tent, extra storage, low investment mount, and slingshot to be useful for their playstyle some don't there's really not much difference.

Also the slingshot has various uses not just a a few it not being strong doesn't automatically mean there's only a few places where it shines.

Wormwood excels at what's he's good at, though. (Wickerbottom can't grow living logs, for one thing.)

Walter doesn't really excel at ranged, mounts, sanity, or even storage compared to some other characters. (And Webber's tent self-replicates.)

[Dwight34]

44 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

Walter is a coherent character though, I don't get people's gripe with his design. It just feels like people are echoing a youtuber's opinion

Walter's kit is coherent from a character design perspective, they all make sense for a boy scout, the issue is that they don't make a coherent gameplay loop, they don't interact with each other or very little. The slingshot, the tent, the sanity bonus around trees, storytelling around a campfire, big woby's speed, woby's inventory, those have little to nothing in the way of interacting with each other. You can use the slingshot to gather some food to use the tent more? You can kinda use woby to fire the slingshot if you do it perfectly hitless?

Interactions within his kit are exceedingly rare and unsatisfying. That's what people mean, and it's an objective fact and flaw.

14 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Wormwood excels at what's he's good at, though. (Wickerbottom can't grow living logs, for one thing.)

Walter doesn't really excel at ranged, mounts, sanity, or even storage compared to some other characters. (And Webber's tent self-replicates.)

This. Wormwood has health issues, but many good crafts, which require health. Those crafts allow him to get powerful items, and crafts allow him to crate more sources of useful food, like berries for quick rot, or bananas for his favorite meal. He can craft monkeytails for more reeds, and he has a perk in his skill tree to always be friendly to bees, thus his kit allows him to eventually easily mass produce honey poultices which help a ton with his health problem... there is a natural interaction between those mechanics, they complement each other and form a satisfying gameplay loop.

[Mysterious box]

16 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Wormwood excels at what's he's good at, though. (Wickerbottom can't grow living logs, for one thing.)

Walter doesn't really excel at ranged, mounts, sanity, or even storage compared to some other characters. (And Webber's tent self-replicates.)

He doesn't though Woodie is much better than Wormwood at producing living logs and even then mushgnomes makes his ability even more irrelevant. As for farming Wickerbottom is the best at it and Wurt already gives him a run for his money with her farming merms and the record player/friendly fruit fly. He has a lot of stuff but he's not master of anything.

As for Webber's tent it takes a lot of time for him to set those up and they're only usable by Webbers whereas Walter's is a team item. Walter doesn't accel at most of the things he offers but he offers them at a convenience pay out.

[aidankocherhans]

8 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Walter's kit is coherent from a character design perspective, they all make sense for a boy scout, the issue is that they don't make a coherent gameplay loop, they don't interact with each other or very little. The slingshot, the tent, the sanity bonus around trees, storytelling around a campfire, big woby's speed, woby's inventory, those have little to nothing in the way of interacting with each other. You can use the slingshot to gather some food to use the tent more? You can kinda use woby to fire the slingshot if you do it perfectly hitless?

Interactions within his kit are exceedingly rare and unsatisfying. That's what people mean, and it's an objective fact and flaw.

But his perks do interact. Woby's storage let's you wear armor more often to avoid sanity loss from damage, the slingshot helps you avoid damage, the tent heals the 2 stats that get lost at the same time, Woby's speed let's you dodge attacks, which makes the slingshot easier to use, etc. The campfire is really more of a social/mandatory waiting thing, and the tree sanity is just a nice way to passively restore sanity while exploring, and since you won't be losing sanity to dusk it'll add up over time without effort. I don't understand why this line of logic is so hard to see

[Catuna_]

12 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Walter's kit is coherent from a character design perspective, they all make sense for a boy scout, the issue is that they don't make a coherent gameplay loop, they don't interact with each other or very little. The slingshot, the tent, the sanity bonus around trees, storytelling around a campfire, big woby's speed, woby's inventory, those have little to nothing in the way of interacting with each other. You can use the slingshot to gather some food to use the tent more? You can kinda use woby to fire the slingshot if you do it perfectly hitless?

Interactions within his kit are exceedingly rare and unsatisfying. That's what people mean, and it's an objective fact and flaw.

but they do... how is this an objective thing when you clearly just never seemed to try to connect them?

walter doesn't lose sanity from insanity auras -> as a result walter loses sanity from being hurt -> we need to make things that make his sanity feel good:
- to make his passive sanity drain matter, walter cannot benefit from clothing items, i think this makes sense; but he's not blocked from higher tier items considered magic (namely the crown) because that'd be stupid
- pinetree pioneer hat reduces the sanity drain from not being full health and halves sanity drain from being hit, thematically it could make sense that walter wearing his hat makes him feel braver
- walter loves the outdoors and standing by enough trees also halves his sanity drain from not being full health by 50% (doesn't stack, hat takes priority), gives him +6sanity/min (tam is +6.67sanity/min) and it compensates for his hat slot being taken meaning that walter can essentially have a tam o' shanter with double the insulation
- walter uses less hunger while sleeping and has a more accessible way of sleeping on-the-go so that people can have some leeway, while fitting amazingly with his character design

all of these "seemingly random" perks that people complain about just make Walter's sanity feel good, the same way that Wurt and Wormwood have a lot of perks with the goal of making them more immersive and make you feel like you're playing a merm/plant character respectively. dlc characters tend to have this type of complexity and it makes sense that walter does too considering that he was intended to be purchase-able rather than unlocked by default
if klei just called it a day at "walter loses sanity from taking damage/not being full health, walter doesn't gain sanity from clothing" people would be complaining about his sanity way more than they already over-exaggerrate it because it'd just feel bad
they just did this in a manner that revolves around him being a boyscout, which is in theme for him, how is this random in any way? these perks interact with his sanity all the time  when you're playing the character with the exception of the optional tent
storytelling around a campfire is just a flavor perk, just like a lot of characters have flavor perks, it's not meant to be a part of the character's design and it's just a cute nod for his love of monsters and scary stories

you're given a ranged option with the intention of day to day utility/combat without risk, but the slingshot is bad because klei only recently started doing decent/good ranged options lol, the slingshot goes hand-in-hand from a concept perspective with walter's sanity mechanics and it still goes with the theme
since the slingshot has a long windup, and walter would be carrying ammo around, woby exists to help with these problems while also still being incredibly useful for someone that doesn't want to interact with the slingshot... speed and inventory slots don't need to "interact" with anything, they're general and extremely big parts of the game

i think that people are just too biased against walter to take a step back and realize that klei's more recent characters are all like walter, with hidden complexities and a lot of perks that range from flavor perks to obvious practical perks to more obscure perks in the name of making characters feel better and feel more distinct, and people are just too headstrong to realize that walter's perks cohere with each other just fine, you're really not being objective here, at all

 

[Dwight34]

17 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

I don't understand why this line of logic is so hard to see

Because you have to make up in your head scenarios that don't happen in actual game and lie by omission. The tent only heals his stats outside of boss fights so its usefulness is very underwhelming, the slingshot only helps in very specific scenarios and is slow and clunky; woby is too dangerous for any bossfight so everyone either plays melee or uses a beefalo, campfire is mostly useless, the tree sanity is a bandaid fix for his issue of not being able to use sanity clothes, the extra inventory is almost entirely negated by the need to wear the pinecone hat, so you don't gain slots, you just remain at the 2 slots of head and torso like every other character. 

Walter only works on paper, never in-game, that's a fact.

8 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

you're really not being objective here, at all

Writing an enormous wall of cope doesn't change the fact I'm describing objective flaws with the character. Incoherent, not good for noobs, not good for the experienced, slow at every normal metric of a run, and not really relaxing like his design would lead you to believe. I love the idea of the little guy, but pretending his current design is anything but a failure is massive delusion.

[aidankocherhans]

4 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Because you have to make up in your head scenarios that don't happen in actual game and lie by omission.

I could say the same about what it feels like you're doing. Also, why are boss fights the ONLY measure of a character to you? There are other parts of the game too, and he's not so bad at boss fights as to be unplayable, unless you try to tank with him. (And the pinetree hat is totally unnecessary most of the time, you don't have to use it except maybe in boss fights)

[Catuna_]

9 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Writing an enormous wall of cope doesn't change the fact I'm describing objective flaws with the character. Incoherent, not good for noobs, not good for the experienced, slow at every normal metric of a run, and not really relaxing like his design would lead you to believe. I love the idea of the little guy, but pretending his current design is anything but a failure is massive delusion.

"walter is incoherent it's a fact"
"no hes not heres how hes coherent"
"writing an enormous wall of cope doesn't change that"

????????? read my post ????????? calling my arguments "a wall of cope" doesn't help about it it's just plain rude
walter's sanity perks literally always interact with each other, either you haven't read my post or just don't have anything to respond with

"not really relaxing like his design would lead you to believe" he makes up most of my playtime....

[Dwight34]

3 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

I could say the same about what it feels like you're doing. Also, why are boss fights the ONLY measure of a character to you? There are other parts of the game too, and he's not so bad at boss fights as to be unplayable, unless you try to tank with him. (And the pinetree hat is totally unnecessary most of the time, you don't have to use it except maybe in boss fights)

I already explained it multiple times, stop acting in bad faith and start reading for once. If Walter isn't for noobs to grant them easier survival (and he isn't), then he must be judged according to the metric of a normal run, where progression is measured by how quickly and with what difficulty you can clear all relevant bosses (seasonal ones, dragonfly, CC questline, AFW questline), and he is so bad at those Jakey has never done a boss run on him.

Walter is never unplayable, he's a bad deal. And people don't like bad deals. it's quite simple, I'm explaining to you with objective analysis the reasons of the objective fact that he's so unpopular and often dismissed.

3 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

"not really relaxing like his design would lead you to believe" he makes up most of my playtime....

"Well if walking on 2 legs is so good and normal, explain why I like hopping around on 1? Checkmate atheists!" Read or cope.

[Catuna_]

2 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

I already explained it multiple times, stop acting in bad faith and start reading for once. If Walter isn't for noobs to grant them easier survival (and he isn't), then he must be judged according to the metric of a normal run, where progression is measured by how quickly and with what difficulty you can clear all relevant bosses (seasonal ones, dragonfly, CC questline, AFW questline), and he is so bad at those Jakey has never done a boss run on him.

Walter is never unplayable, he's a bad deal. And people don't like bad deals. it's quite simple, I'm explaining to you with objective analysis the reasons of the objective fact that he's so unpopular and often dismissed.

if our metric for characters is the boss rushes that they've accomplished then walter has the biggest achievement under his belt lol
walter's just fine for boss rushes, and i've done fuelweaver as early as spring with him, the character choice barely matters for a boss rush shrug

jakey is not a professional player or anything, he is just someone trying to make content and it just comes down to walter not being a flashy character compared to, idk, say, a character with a brand new skill tree...

4 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

"Well if walking on 2 legs is so good and normal, explain why I like hopping around on 1? Checkmate atheists!" Read or cope.

why wouldn't my personal experience of beating every boss and having a playtime of 1220 mostly composed of playing walter not matter...? quite frankly someone who's likely played him once and dropped him right then and there would be a less credible source... read my post... respond to what i said there, i really feel like you're just dodging the arguments because you've got none of your own at this point

[aidankocherhans]

11 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

I already explained it multiple times, stop acting in bad faith and start reading for once.

 

12 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Well if walking on 2 legs is so good and normal, explain why I like hopping around on 1? Checkmate atheists!" Read or cope.

I tried to keep this discussion civil, but it seems you have no interest in that. You know you can have a disagreement without insulting the character of other people, right? It's not cope to have a different opinion.

[Dwight34]

3 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

 

I tried to keep this discussion civil, but it seems you have no interest in that. You know you can have a disagreement without insulting the character of other people, right? It's not cope to have a different opinion.

You: Why isn't Walter liked?

Me: explains in great details and 10 times over why he isn't liked

You and the other guy: bUt i lIkE HiM ThOuGh aNd hE'S TeChNiCaLlY PlAyAbLe, AnD LoOk gUiLlE ThE SpEeDrUnNiNg gOd mAnAgEd tO Do sOmEtHiNg gOoD WiTh hIm

That's cope. You ask why he isn't liked, then everyone who "defends" him just screams at the top of their lungs "but me likey!". There's no point in further explaining to those who refuse to hear the obvious answer and constantly make up imaginary scenarios in their heads where his perks are in any way relevant. I won't answer anymore, either learn the truth or don't, all the tools have been given to you already.

[Catuna_]

Just now, Dwight34 said:

You: Why isn't Walter liked?

Me: explains in great details and 10 times over why he isn't liked

You and the other guy: bUt i lIkE HiM ThOuGh aNd hE'S TeChNiCaLlY PlAyAbLe, AnD LoOk gUiLlE ThE SpEeDrUnNiNg gOd mAnAgEd tO Do sOmEtHiNg gOoD WiTh hIm

That's cope. You ask why he isn't liked, then everyone who "defends" him just screams at the top of their lungs "but me likey!". There's no point in further explaining to those who refuse to hear the obvious answer and constantly make up imaginary scenarios in their heads where his perks are in any way relevant. I won't answer anymore, either learn the truth or don't, all the tools have been given to you already.

you're both cherry-picking and being plain rude now... you're still ignoring my arguments i gave you as to why he's coherent...
if you got nothing to say it's okay, just don't reply...?
i brought up guille's nohit run because you brought up boss rushes
you said, and i quote
"If Walter isn't for noobs to grant them easier survival (and he isn't), then he must be judged according to the metric of a normal run, where progression is measured by how quickly and with what difficulty you can clear all relevant bosses (seasonal ones, dragonfly, CC questline, AFW questline), and he is so bad at those Jakey has never done a boss run on him."
guille's run is unrealistic yes, but yours doesn't have to be, it's just to show that you can go fast with any character, and walter is a character that can go fast in general...
 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

You: Why isn't Walter liked?

Me: explains in great details and 10 times over why he isn't liked

You and the other guy: bUt i lIkE HiM ThOuGh aNd hE'S TeChNiCaLlY PlAyAbLe, AnD LoOk gUiLlE ThE SpEeDrUnNiNg gOd mAnAgEd tO Do sOmEtHiNg gOoD WiTh hIm

That's cope. You ask why he isn't liked, then everyone who "defends" him just screams at the top of their lungs "but me likey!". There's no point in further explaining to those who refuse to hear the obvious answer and constantly make up imaginary scenarios in their heads where his perks are in any way relevant. I won't answer anymore, either learn the truth or don't, all the tools have been given to you already.

Again Wormwood is also bad character by the line of logic your using.