I don't understand the complaints about Walter

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Again Wormwood is also bad character by the line of logic your using.

"I don't understand the complaints about Wormwood"

Possible title to a thread that isn't this one.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

"I don't understand the complaints about Wormwood"

Possible title to a thread that isn't this one.

It's very relevant to the conversation though as they're both characters with heavy downsides that aren't the best at what they do but offer different benefits of varying usefulness. I think people are so caught up in the idea that Walter is bad that they don't logically examine why they feel that way about him in comparsion to his peers.

The biggest arguments being made seem to be I don't find his abilities useful which can apply to the entire cast and his abilities don't flow well together but with no added context. It just feels like the discussion boils down to Walter's bad. Why? Because I said so.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

It's very relevant to the conversation though as they're both characters with heavy downsides that aren't the best at what they do but offer different benefits of varying usefulness. I think people are so caught up in the idea that Walter is bad that they don't logically examine why they feel that way about him in comparsion to his peers.

The biggest arguments being made seem to be I don't find his abilities useful which can apply to the entire cast and his abilities don't flow well together but with no added context. It just feels like the discussion boils down to Walter's bad. Why? Because I said so.

The thing is that Wormwood gets better by mid-game. Walter doesn't.

Tents become a waste of time because other health and sanity recovery options don't force you to sit still. Halved cooking time doesn't apply to crock pots. Can't tell a campfire story around a lantern, nightberry, etc. Saddled beefalo becomes faster than Woby. Burrowing horn, bundling wraps, and Chester begin to encroach on Woby storage (considering these synergize with teleporting characters). Slingshot becomes ineffective (relative to pain to acquire ammo, like blowdart) before being entirely replaced by late game.

In short, his toolkit got power crept by game updates. Wilson syndrome.

[Catuna_]

9 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Tents become a waste of time because other health and sanity recovery options don't force you to sit still. Halved cooking time doesn't apply to crock pots. Can't tell a campfire story around a lantern, nightberry, etc.

none of these are "make or break" perks and you never have to care about these, telling stories around a campfire is just a flavor perk you're not incentivized to use it in any way...

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Saddled beefalo become faster than Woby.

you can always tame your own beefalo though, walter isn't restricted to woby, this doesn't make him "worse" if he can benefit from the same thing everyone else can

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Burrowing horn, bundling wraps, and Chester begin to encroach on Woby storage (considering these synergize with teleporting characters).

??? but walter always has 9 more slots than other characters (excluding maxie),
if i have chester following me as wilson i have 9/12 extra slots, if i have chester following me as walter i have 18/21 extra slots
adding the burrowing horn wilson would have 21/24 extra slots, walter would have 30/33 slots
he's not locked from using the burrowing horn or anything, i don't get the argument here...
these arguments would only apply if walter was unable to use these tools, which he can

12 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Slingshot becomes ineffective (relative to pain to acquire ammo, like blowdart) before being entirely replaced by late game.

slingshot is ineffective off spawn but the ammo is nowhere near comparable to farming blowdarts, especially if you're not wickerbottom/maxwell, cursed rounds are extremely cheap and damage-efficient... if you want to use the slingshot it's not about the ammo but it's way more about the fact that it fires too slow and deals too little damage per second as a result

i agree that walter has been powercrept in a way with skill trees and that woby is just worse than a beefalo but any character without one is being powercrept too
it's really not saying much when a character that doesn't have a skill tree is being powercrept by characters with a skill tree

[Mysterious box]

33 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

The thing is that Wormwood gets better by mid-game. Walter doesn't.

Tents become a waste of time because other health and sanity recovery options don't force you to sit still. Halved cooking time doesn't apply to crock pots. Can't tell a campfire story around a lantern, nightberry, etc. Saddled beefalo becomes faster than Woby. Burrowing horn, bundling wraps, and Chester begin to encroach on Woby storage (considering these synergize with teleporting characters). Slingshot becomes ineffective (relative to pain to acquire ammo, like blowdart) before being entirely replaced by late game.

In short, his toolkit got power crept by game updates. Wilson syndrome.

Disagree Wormwood actually gets worse as time goes on his living logs become less useful as you open the rift, farming becomes more hazardous, and even if he has some post rift upgrades they're still worse than what other combat characters can do.

As for Walter the beefalo definitely powercreeps Woby but that's only for someone who is dedicated to using mounts. Taking on a beefalo is a extra stressor your taking on and a big investment that the vast majority of players aren't willing to take on meaning Woby will always be a good alternative because she' doesn't ask for the same level of responsibility while giving most of the benefits ironically enough. Woby's storage can't really be powercrept on Walter since whatever storage you get is gained in addition to her.

His slingshot is powercrept but it's still useful up until you do replace it with late game gear.

As for the portable tent I feel like that's debatable the only point I feel like it's completely powercrept is when you have the bearger bin but that power creeps stat management in general expanding far beyond just Walter and even then the tent would probably still be useful for Wormwood. Infact the bearger bin basically makes his sanity downside irrelevant.

As for the campfire stories you can however tell them on a moving boat.

He's definitely in need of a skill tree to keep up but your definitely making his situation seem more dire than it actually is.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

none of these are "make or break" perks and you never have to care about these, telling stories around a campfire is just a flavor perk you're not incentivized to use it in any way...

you can always tame your own beefalo though, walter isn't restricted to woby, this doesn't make him "worse" if he can benefit from the same thing everyone else can

And therefore these can't help him hold up to any other characters.

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

??? but walter always has 9 more slots than other characters (excluding maxie),
if i have chester following me as wilson i have 9/12 extra slots, if i have chester following me as walter i have 18/21 extra slots
adding the burrowing horn wilson would have 21/24 extra slots, walter would have 30/33 slots
he's not locked from using the burrowing horn or anything, i don't get the argument here...
these arguments would only apply if walter was unable to use these tools, which he can

Certain other characters: Teleport back to base, swap loot for supplies, teleport back. Now they can pick up even more loot.

He's got a slight edge in that over those with no equivalent, but only them.

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

slingshot is ineffective off spawn but the ammo is nowhere near comparable to farming blowdarts, especially if you're not wickerbottom/maxwell, cursed rounds are extremely cheap and damage-efficient...

Cursed rounds also happen to suffer from a unique crafting requirement.

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

i agree that walter has been powercrept in a way with skill trees and that woby is just worse than a beefalo but any character without one is being powercrept too
it's really not saying much when a character that doesn't have a skill tree is being powercrept by characters with a skill tree

Maxwell, Wickerbottom, Webber, WX, and Wanda. Pre-skill Wurt, Wigfrid, Wolfgang, and Winona. On par with Wendy, except she's noob-friendly early game.

His skill tree could fix him, but we can't compare what we don't have. We can pretend he has planar damage, but that doesn't help much. He's not great right now.

23 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Disagree Wormwood actually gets worse as time goes on his living logs become less useful as you open the rift, farming becomes more hazardous, and even if he has some post rift upgrades they're still worse than what other combat characters can do.

Gets better in that the healing options open up. Many of his upsides remain constant.

Walter, however, completely loses most of his upsides before rift. Lots of sanity options for everyone, yet needs to keep health topped up to avoid drain, doesn't work on shadow items.

[SilverSpoon]

There are no bad characters in this game. There is bad game balance.

Currently, many characters are left behind by inflation of game and power creep.
Personally, I think Walter is in there. Immediately after Walter was implemented, there was no planar damage, no Enlightened Crown, no Polar Bearger Bin, and no Shadow Rift Beefalo gear.

Anyway, when you talk about character, it makes me and other people sad to blame that character, blame other characters, blame other people's way of thinking, or blame other people's playstyle. Please don't do that for no more make sadness.

[Mysterious box]

22 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Gets better in that the healing options open up. Many of his upsides remain constant.

Walter, however, completely loses most of his upsides before rift. Lots of sanity options for everyone, yet needs to keep health topped up to avoid drain, doesn't work on shadow items.

Many sanity options open up to Walter especially the bearger bin which allows him to carry stack of sanity food for even the worst of dodgers.

Much like Walter what Wormwood offers is done better by other characters he doesn't actually accel at anything above anyone else while still carrying his healing penalty. I don't really understand how Wormwood is immune to the criticism you're giving Walter in this aspect despite suffering from the same problem? If Walter is bad because better options exist while having lesser downsides what does that make Wormwood? What decides that Wormwood's inferior perks are more valuable than Walter's inferior perks?

[Bumber64]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Many sanity options open up to Walter especially the bearger bin which allows him to carry stack of sanity food for even the worst of dodgers.

Much like Walter what Wormwood offers is done better by other characters he doesn't actually accel at anything above anyone else while still carrying his healing penalty. I don't really understand how Wormwood is immune to the criticism you're giving Walter in this aspect despite suffering from the same problem? If Walter is bad because better options exist while having lesser downsides what does that make Wormwood? What decides that Wormwood's inferior perks are more valuable than Walter's inferior perks?

Okay, but that just makes him Wilson with more frequent eating.

Wormwood is criticized, for his downside in particular. It's just that those who like him see the value in blooming, bramble armor, or whatever enough to work around the downside.

Those who don't like Walter see Woby as insufficient to justify him over any other mediocre character. He's not even notable for a challenge, like Wes, Wormwood, or Warly. He was meant to be the ranged character, which he now isn't.

[Catuna_]

41 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

And therefore these can't help him hold up to any other characters.

they were never supposed to, they're not what's impactful about his character

41 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Certain other characters: Teleport back to base, swap loot for supplies, teleport back. Now they can pick up even more loot.

the characters in question are winona and wanda that need prior setup with wanda's watch having a cooldown, and wortox who needs a recurring cost while woby is always available for free; except that winona and wanda themselves suffer from having their inventories clogged a lot due to unstackable watches and buildings...
these aren't comparable... and even if they were there's still every other character still has a fair bit less storage

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Cursed rounds also happen to suffer from a unique crafting requirement.

of going to the ruins, while potentially annoying still extremely servicable and wayyyyyy better than farming blowdarts... you can make a ton of them when you go to the ruins for whatever your purposes may be

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Maxwell, Wickerbottom, Webber, WX, and Wanda. Pre-skill Wurt, Wigfrid, Wolfgang, and Winona. On par with Wendy, except she's noob-friendly early game.

with all due respect i'm inclined to disagree with literally everyone you listed, wendy is good and i love playing her but she's nowhere near the other characters that have been getting aoe perks steadily overtime with wigfrid's dash, wanda and wolfgang's better damage (making them overall better since they dont have to manage abigail), winona's catapult spam and incredible utility overall, etc. she's also worse than a lot of the roster at the newer bosses that have an insane amount of aoe damage and knockback and planar defense which wendy just can't keep up with
pre-skill tree wurt is a non-argument because she has a skill tree right now, and webber is not very good...

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Okay, but that just makes him Wilson with more frequent eating.

Wormwood is criticized, for his downside in particular. It's just that those who like him see the value in blooming, bramble armor, or whatever enough to work around the downside.

Those who don't like Walter see Woby as insufficient to justify him over any other mediocre character. He's not even notable for a challenge, like Wes, Wormwood, or Warly. He was meant to be the ranged character, which he now isn't.

See here's why I'm using Wormwood as the comparsion you're using a different standard here. Those who like Wormwood vs those who dislike Walter.

You're pretending Walter's perks offer nothing while praising Wormwoods despite falling under the same category. I've already mentioned why those who like Walter see value in his perks as well. I'd like an objective reason Walter is bad that doesn't also apply to Wormwood who is apparently not bad.

[Bumber64]

44 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

they were never supposed to, they're not what's impactful about his character

Then what is? It can't just be Woby.

44 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

the characters in question are winona and wanda that need prior setup with wanda's watch having a cooldown, and wortox who needs a recurring cost while woby is always available for free

Hence mid-game strength, while also getting to boast some of the best DPS. (Not Wortox, though. He's pretty terrible for anything besides early game exploration.)

44 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

of going to the ruins, while potentially annoying still extremely servicable and wayyyyyy better than farming blowdarts... you can make a ton of them when you go to the ruins for whatever your purposes may be

As a result, melee until post-rifts. Wilson wields a howlitzer or gloomerang just as well as Walter.

44 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

with all due respect i'm inclined to disagree with literally everyone you listed, wendy is good and i love playing her but she's nowhere near the other characters that have been getting aoe perks steadily overtime with wigfrid's dash, wanda and wolfgang's better damage (making them overall better since they dont have to manage abigail), winona's catapult spam and incredible utility overall, etc. she's also worse than a lot of the roster at the newer bosses that have an insane amount of aoe damage and knockback and planar defense which wendy just can't keep up with
pre-skill tree wurt is a non-argument because she has a skill tree right now, and webber is not very good...

You seem to have misunderstood somehow. That was a list of characters that surpass Walter by mid-game without using any skills. Wendy is being singled out as being as approximately as mediocre by that point.

Webber gets an army of spitter spiders kept at full health by nurses. He can cannibalize his dead spiders for free instant food and materials. He's not good because he's great.

32 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd like an objective reason Walter is bad that doesn't also apply to Wormwood who is apparently not bad.

I wouldn't know because I don't like Wormwood. I get that some people like his upsides in spite of his major downside. I don't see enough upside in Walter to consider him over any no-downside character. (Wolfgang, Winona, Wilson, Wendy, skill Woody, skill Willow, Webber, etc.)

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

wouldn't know because I don't like Wormwood. I get that some people like his upsides in spite of his major downside. I don't see enough upside in Walter to consider him over any no-downside character.

Okay that's fine and all but that just means he doesn't suit your preferences that doesn't mean he's bad I even feel the same way about Wx specifically.

[Bumber64]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Okay that's fine and all but that just means he doesn't suit your preferences that doesn't mean he's bad I even feel the same way about Wx specifically.

I don't know of any of the hypothetical people mentioned in the OP who think he's terrible. I've just heard he's Wilson-bad, which is a form of mediocrity. (This is distinct from swap-char tier, so I'm told.)

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I don't know of any of the hypothetical people mentioned in the OP who think he's terrible. I've just heard he's Wilson-bad, which is a form of mediocrity.

Here's the thing that came from an influencer's opinion that people latched on to without coming to their own conclusions much like the other long standing opinions like Wortox op or Willow is a griefer.

[Catuna_]

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Then what is? It can't just be Woby.

it's his immunity to insanity auras mainly

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

You seem to have misunderstood somehow. That was a list of characters that surpass Walter by mid-game without using any skills. Wendy is being singled out as being as approximately as mediocre by that point.

Webber gets an army of spitter spiders kept at full health by nurses. He can cannibalize his dead spiders for free instant food and materials. He's not good because he's great.

i don't get why you said "somehow"... you listed a bunch of characters and then said "on par with wendy" and didnt explain what the list was about...
what you said just reinforces my point though, these are all characters that have seen reworks and/or skill trees like yeah wanda and maxwell surpass walter of course they do they surpass about every character in the game
listing what characters are better than walter and then listing characters like wanda, characters that have seen reworks (namely max and wicker) and skill trees like winona just goes to show that characters have been getting a lot stronger, it's no fault of walter's here lol
he was designed at a time where year of the beefalo didnt exist yet and when perks were a lot weaker globally, it makes sense that he didn't age well

 

[Bumber64]

9 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

it's his immunity to insanity auras mainly

He trades sanity auras for a constant drain when not at full health. (We don't want to waste healing items, and he happens to be allergic to the source of passive health regen.) This perk is mostly only a benefit in boss fights, and some health foods restore sanity anyway. It kind of breaks even, except sanity clothing doesn't work for him (IIRC) while shadow items still affect him.

Meanwhile I've heard people complain that it's difficult to get Maxwell to go insane for NMF.

9 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

i don't get why you said "somehow"... you listed a bunch of characters and then said "on par with wendy" and didnt explain what the list was about...
what you said just reinforces my point though, these are all characters that have seen reworks and/or skill trees like yeah wanda and maxwell surpass walter of course they do they surpass about every character in the game
listing what characters are better than walter and then listing characters like wanda, characters that have seen reworks (namely max and wicker) and skill trees like winona just goes to show that characters have been getting a lot stronger, it's no fault of walter's here lol
he was designed at a time where year of the beefalo didnt exist yet and when perks were a lot weaker globally, it makes sense that he didn't age well

The context was Walter, and characters with skill trees being better than those without. I guess I incorrectly assumed it was obvious that it was a list of characters greater or equal to Walter (by mid-game).

I'm pretty sure Walter is considered to have already got his rework? It was a small one like Wortox. Can't complain he didn't get a major rework if you're claiming he was already good.

The list happens to be most of the cast, though. (I probably could've thrown in more. E.g., does Woodie need his downside completely removed via lunar skill to be better than Walter? Subjective.) Skill trees do nothing if you don't use them, so that particular argument doesn't hold water. Characters can be played in pre-skill form and still remain stronger than Walter.

[flamboyant wolf]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:47 PM, aidankocherhans said:

Woby's minimum speed matches the fastest beefalo

I wish.

If that was the case I'd still be using Walter to this day.

[Maxil20]

I’m gonna be honest and throw the worlds most minor nitpick here: While I don’t really play Walter, I don’t inherently have any gripes with the character (he just doesn’t mesh with me too well, and that’s okay!). The only thing that really bothers me about him is the low max hunger of 110, which is the second lowest in the game. I don’t really like playing characters with hunger below 150, since it means you need to eat more frequently and it’s something that does get on me after awhile. Part of the reason I play Wanda (and used to main Webber) was both have a max hunger of 175, which I find ideal in a lot of scenarios.

In my current case I usually just ingore the hunger meter until I see the red effect on my screen and just pop 3 figatonis in one go, with zero loss of hunger and a nearly topped up meter. Walter by comparison could manage 2 at best and you would waste a tiny amount of the second one (which again is not going to break the character whatsoever, but it gets me quite a bit!)

Is it worth mentioning? Probably not! But at least I figured I might as well state something I am not too keen on that you can’t really remedy innately.

 

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

He trades sanity auras for a constant drain when not at full health. (We don't want to waste healing items, and he happens to be allergic to the source of passive health regen.) This perk is mostly only a benefit in boss fights, and some health foods restore sanity anyway. It kind of breaks even, except sanity clothing doesn't work for him (IIRC) while shadow items still affect him.

Meanwhile I've heard people complain that it's difficult to get Maxwell to go insane for NMF.

Sanity aura protection is very helpful for ruins runs as it resists nightmare lights and other nightmare related drains don't even need to worry about sanity in the ruins if your more careful about it or make good use of lichen and the tent. Also you don't need to waste healing items as you only need to heal to 90% of your max hp to prevent the drain. While shadow items do still effect him that works both ways for example items like the thulecite armor still passively gives him sanity which makes a big different since he has no passive drains. In the case of shadow gear as well it means boss insanity auras aren't stacking with the gear's drain.

7 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The list happens to be most of the cast, though. (I probably could've thrown in more. E.g., does Woodie need his downside completely removed via lunar skill to be better than Walter? Subjective.) Skill trees do nothing if you don't use them, so that particular argument doesn't hold water. Characters can be played in pre-skill form and still remain stronger than Walter.

This is very subjective on what you mean by better take Woodie for example. Without skill tree skills his were beaver form is the worst method of gathering wood compared to all the specialized wood choppers, his goose is powercrept by ruins gear, and the moose is just a worse fighter than base Woodie so that leaves you with a character who doesn't need to pay for axes and spawns trees guards a bit faster than normal. This is without considering how horrible it is to plsy Woodie during lunar storms without his skill tree additions. Sure he has fun qualities but that's looking at the character objectively and a lot of the same issues pop up for the rest of the cast if you examine them closely we just like to ignore them unlike Walter most of the time.

The major issue with Walter more or less boils down to well what if your bad at combat? And to that I say well clearly you're going to struggle with Wanda as she's far less forgiving in that aspect if you're using her properly.

Honestly if you think you're being objective ask yourself some simple questions.

1. Is having one of the fastest movement speeds with the least amount of investment a bad perk?
2. Is having cheap access to ranged damage for various situations a bad perk?
3. Is slowing down speed based enemies a bad perk?
4. Are tents a bad item?
5. Is having more storage space a bad perk?
6. Is not being affected by most sanity related concepts in exchange for being a bit more careful in combat a bad perk?

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

his goose is powercrept by ruins gear

It's used for early game exploration. That's Woby mount, except it works on water to find the various islands and CK.

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

 

1. Is having one of the fastest movement speeds with the least amount of investment a bad perk?
2. Is having cheap access to ranged damage for various situations a bad perk?
3. Is slowing down speed based enemies a bad perk?
4. Are tents a bad item?
5. Is having more storage space a bad perk?
6. Is not being affected by most sanity related concepts in exchange for being a bit more careful in combat a bad perk?

1. Not true. Wortox teleports clear across the map with little effort on day one. (Woby needs MM or durian. He just murders butterflies and bees.) The aforementioned weregoose (MM and seeds). Saddled beefalo are faster once you get access, which you can just ride to keep domestication. It's not a bad perk in of itself.

2. Not a bad perk. It's better for hitting birds and tentacles than actual combat. He lost this advantage due to monkeytails (cheap blowdart) and skill trees.

3. It's kind of useless. Ice staves, Overcoming Arachnophobia, and Webber den creep would be used more often if it were any good. Turns out it's more practical just to be fast.

4. Yes, it's bad. I main Webber and I've only really used T3 den sleep for Winter's Feast. It's just not worth sitting around doing nothing, even for free healing. (Free for him because he can eat raw MM with no penalty, immediately upgrade any den to T3 with silk, sleep, then civil war it for a ton of silk+MM and replacement spider eggs. He can bedazzle one for a permanent bed that doesn't turn into queen.) So Webber's is better but I still don't use it.

5. This one is good. It's the only one that remains useful throughout the game.

6. It's hit or miss, being a double-edged sword. Is Wortox's halved sanity aura loss for half sanity gain from food a bad perk? It's a trade off for a stat that isn't hard to manage to begin with. (I guess you could intentionally get hit to lose lunacy? Night armor already does that, however.)

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

1. Not true. Wortox teleports clear across the map with little effort on day one. (Woby needs MM or durian. He just murders butterflies and bees.) The aforementioned weregoose (MM and seeds). Saddled beefalo are faster once you get access, which you can just ride to keep domestication. It's not a bad perk in of itself.

Wortox has to farm souls each time which is slower than farming monster meat. The goose can't pick anything up and can only go from point a to b even his ocean travel ability is niche considering how much easier boat access is these days and the fact that you don't need to island hop much if ever depending on your playstyle and even if you do plan to docks exist completely nullifying any advantage the goose would have over Woby. A beefalo is a massive time investment and a constant stressor you need to care for which most players aren't willing to commit to. Heck let's even throw Wx in for added measure he needs to commit to circuits based on speed meaning speed will be all he can do to compete with Woby.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

3. It's kind of useless. Ice staves, Overcoming Arachnophobia, and Webber den creep would be used more often if it were any good. Turns out it's more practical just to be fast.

Ice staves freeze is nullfied in a single hit and many enemies have resistance to it, Overcoming Arachnophobia only works in a set area, and Webber's dens aren't useful in this situation for what should be obvious reasons.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

2. Not a bad perk. It's better for hitting birds and tentacles than actual combat. He lost this advantage due to monkeytails (cheap blowdart) and skill trees.

And killing mushgnomes, clockwork knights(unless you tank), engaging with cowardly enemies, killing nightmare creatures(they can't fight back), and more but that aside monkeytails making reeds more accessible doesn't really help much for how long it takes to build up blowdarts if it did more people would be using them but they remain a niche item used about as much as a breezy vest. The slingshot doesn't play a major role in most combat scenarios but it plays more than enough roles in a wide variety of areas that it still counts as a good perk.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

4. Yes, it's bad. I main Webber and I've only really used T3 den sleep for Winter's Feast. It's just not worth sitting around doing nothing, even for free healing. (Free for him because he can eat raw MM with no penalty, immediately upgrade any den to T3 with silk, sleep, then civil war it for a ton of silk+MM and replacement spider eggs. He can bedazzle one for a permanent bed that doesn't turn into queen.) So Webber's is better but I still don't use it.

There's a massive difference between going to a specific area to heal or bringing healing with you as you still have to go out of your way to make healing food in most cases and even that food has a expiration date and while bundling wraps can remove the expiration date that still means you be performing bundling shuffling every time you need to heal so this isn't really completely solved until you've reached very late game.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

6. It's hit or miss, being a double-edged sword. Is Wortox's halved sanity aura loss for half sanity gain from food a bad perk? It's a trade off for a stat that isn't hard to manage to begin with. (I guess you could intentionally get hit to lose lunacy? Night armor already does that, however.)

Depends on how you look at it really is hp a hard stat to manage? At the end of the day the only way you're losing a noticeable amount of sanity as Walter is if you're performing really badly in a fight as it takes a fair amount of hits for Walter to go insane and even the passive sanity drain isn't very high unless you are on the edge of death and even then it caps at -12 per min far lower than boss negative sanity auras so even at it's worst you're losing less sanity than other characters unless you outright tank or are dodging very poorly at every turn. I get it we all have those fights we're bad at no matter the skill level however I then have a different question if you even think you're going to perform poorly in a fight do you just not bring healing food? If so why not just bring a healing food that also restores a bit of sanity or just separately bring sanity food as well it's not like people don't use it on other characters no? Walter's pine tree hat also compensates for this amazingly as you'll always die before you would go insane hp wise but it's completely unnecessary depending on you skill level in the fights you're in.

A very common issue I have with Walter is having trouble staying insane to farm nightmare fuel and I'm sure a common reaction would be "What do you mean you have trouble staying insane as Walter he has sanity issues!" But really think about it for a second the only ways Walter can lose sanity is using magic tab items, getting hurt(which means you'll eventually need to heal since you obviously don't have infinite hp), And the passive sanity drain from being at his lowest hp threshold which is only -12 sanity per min which is 8 less sanity per minute than holding a dark sword and there are no extra factors influencing this unlike when using a dark sword like sanity auras or time of day. That means even at his lowest it would take a little under 2 full days to go insane if you didn't take damage. Walter's sanity downside simply seems harsher than it actually is and I think it comes down to losing sanity when you mess up feels bad almost like the game is kicking you when you're already down and I think that it also causes people to panic as well it gives the opposite feeling of big numbers making people happy and that's probably why people view it more harshly.

[arubaro]

On 10/12/2024 at 4:01 PM, Dwight34 said:

Interactions within his kit are exceedingly rare and unsatisfying. That's what people mean, and it's an objective fact and flaw

And why it should be designed like that??? Wormwood kit is one of the best and their perks doesnt interact, Willow and bernie neither or wurt's... i think is just an arbitrary complaint without any good foundation 

[Bumber64]

12 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Wortox has to farm souls each time which is slower than farming monster meat. The goose can't pick anything up and can only go from point a to b even his ocean travel ability is niche considering how much easier boat access is these days and the fact that you don't need to island hop much if ever depending on your playstyle and even if you do plan to docks exist completely nullifying any advantage the goose would have over Woby. A beefalo is a massive time investment and a constant stressor you need to care for which most players aren't willing to commit to. Heck let's even throw Wx in for added measure he needs to commit to circuits based on speed meaning speed will be all he can do to compete with Woby.

How is farming souls slower than farming MM? Anything that drops MM drops souls, but not everything that drops souls drops MM. You can use bee boxes whenever you're at base, and take a stack of live bees with you to surpass the soul limit.

If the goal is early game rushing, you just want to find everything before you need to interact with it. You don't want to waste time sailing over empty sea, avoiding sea stacks. You're trying to find ruins, atrium tentapillar, etc. You're not going to build docks and bridges to nowhere.

WX speed is more for combat. Woby will throw you off if you get hit.

12 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

There's a massive difference between going to a specific area to heal or bringing healing with you as you still have to go out of your way to make healing food in most cases and even that food has a expiration date and while bundling wraps can remove the expiration date that still means you be performing bundling shuffling every time you need to heal so this isn't really completely solved until you've reached very late game.

Food like the food Walter needs to restore hunger before sleeping? I already explained how it's not a set area for Webber. A sleepable den drops a new one 100% of the time. You don't have to wait for it to grow because it can be immediately upgraded. Free food.

The problem is that you can't sleep in combat, which is when you're taking damage. So you end up having healing food at the ready anyway.

12 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Depends on how you look at it really is hp a hard stat to manage? At the end of the day the only way you're losing a noticeable amount of sanity as Walter is if you're performing really badly in a fight as it takes a fair amount of hits for Walter to go insane and even the passive sanity drain isn't very high unless you are on the edge of death and even then it caps at -12 per min far lower than boss negative sanity auras so even at it's worst you're losing less sanity than other characters unless you outright tank or are dodging very poorly at every turn. I get it we all have those fights we're bad at no matter the skill level however I then have a different question if you even think you're going to perform poorly in a fight do you just not bring healing food? If so why not just bring a healing food that also restores a bit of sanity or just separately bring sanity food as well it's not like people don't use it on other characters no?

Is sanity a hard stat to manage? It doesn't even actually kill you when it hits zero, like health does. It spawns shadow creatures, which you can kill to restore sanity. That's rather inconvenient to have to do during a boss fight, so you bring sanity food for that case.

I mentioned that earlier (see: Wilson with more frequent eating). If you're using healing food that restores sanity, then what difference does Walter's perk make? The food is as good for anyone else, except Walter is taking an immediate sanity hit plus a drain until he heals, so you're encouraged to deal with it immediately.

Pioneer hat takes head slot when you might want a thulcite crown, or a magi in the chest, etc. It's an option limiter, although you might not need it to begin with in those circumstances. Not like it completely removes the impact, so you still need a means of sanity recovery eventually.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

How is farming souls slower than farming MM? Anything that drops MM drops souls, but not everything that drops souls drops MM. You can use bee boxes whenever you're at base, and take a stack of live bees with you to surpass the soul limit.

because the amount of souls you need to do a long range teleport vs the amount of meat you need for a big Woby the time difference isn't even comparable.

5 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

If the goal is early game rushing, you just want to find everything before you need to interact with it. You don't want to waste time sailing over empty sea, avoiding sea stacks. You're trying to find ruins, atrium tentapillar, etc. You're not going to build docks and bridges to nowhere.

That's cool an all but even in the best case comparison that means the goose loses completely after one trip around the world.

6 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

WX speed is more for combat. Woby will throw you off if you get hit.

While his speed is nice for combat if that's the only thing you want to use it for that still means you need to waste time recharging and Woby will only throw you off on hit if you aren't wearing armor as she has a damage threshold you have to reach in a short time frame before she bucks you.

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Food like the food Walter needs to restore hunger before sleeping? I already explained how it's not a set area for Webber. A sleepable den drops a new one 100% of the time. You don't have to wait for it to grow because it can be immediately upgraded. Free food.

The problem is that you can't sleep in combat, which is when you're taking damage. So you end up having healing food at the ready anyway.

And here is the issue with that Webber comparison once again do you have a spider den and 15 silk on you at all times? Is that even worth it?

As for the food raw ingredients to take care of hunger exists everywhere on the map the things you need to turn it into healing items do not and that makes a big difference. I'm not saying you wouldn't use healing food but are you carrying healing food with you at all times? Personally I don't unless I'm planning to head to a boss or just have excess food that heals late game. Also if you're close to death all you really need to do is leave combat to heal it's not like you're stuck in a fighting mode.

13 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Is sanity a hard stat to manage? It doesn't even actually kill you when it hits zero, like health does. It spawns shadow creatures, which you can kill to restore sanity. Just rather inconvenient to have to do during a boss fight, so you use sanity food.

I mentioned that earlier (see: Wilson with more frequent eating). If you're using healing food that restores sanity, then what difference does Walter's perk make? The food is as good for anyone else, except Walter is taking an immediate sanity hit plus a drain until he heals, so you're encouraged to deal with it immediately.

It's not a hard stat to manage but you save a lot more time not having to manage it especially in areas like the caves it's like comparing the progress of someone who stays insane all the time to someone who stays sane clearly one side is getting things done faster not investing time into surviving no?

See the thing is you're only really using that food if you aren't very good at combat that's not a fault of Walter but the player.

Let's break it down a bit more let's say you are fighting dragonfly she deals 75 damage with a log suit that's 15 damage or 30 sanity damage without the hat. in order to go insane you'd need to get hit 6 times without healing or 12 times with the hat. Getting hit that many times means you're on the edge of death without the hat or have died once over with the hat is that the fault or Walter or the player? But usually better players will have better gear going into boss fights than just a football helm anyway so let's say you're wearing armor with 90% damage reduction meaning you're taking 7.5 damage or 15 sanity damage per hit without the hat. You would need to get hit 12 times without the hat to go insane and a staggering 23 times without healing to go insane with the hat and there's still room for higher damage reduction. The hat is there to make up for people who can't kit very well and it's really good at it's job so once again is his sanity really that hard to manage?

The arguments against Walter only ever hold up when you ignore the flaws of every other character and only focus on the flaws of Walter as his biggest downside is user skill issue and his perks are objectively useful.