I don't understand the complaints about Walter

[Edible Coal]

i just think this boiles down to do you think walter perks outweights his downsides, some do and some dont. thats all lol

[DegenerateFurry]

1 minute ago, Edible Coal said:

i just think this boiles down to do you think walter perks outweights his downsides, some do and some dont. thats all lol

Eh, to some extent, but I genuinely feel like he's a deeply flawed character in terms of design and Klei should buff him and maybe change things around so his perks fit better with each other. It is kinda ridiculous that replacing Woby as a mount with a beefalo is a straight upgrade for Walter, and one that also negates his biggest downside.

[Edible Coal]

17 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Eh, to some extent, but I genuinely feel like he's a deeply flawed character in terms of design and Klei should buff him and maybe change things around so his perks fit better with each other. It is kinda ridiculous that replacing Woby as a mount with a beefalo is a straight upgrade for Walter, and one that also negates his biggest downside.

kina funny if you got chester, bunny horn, your backpack and woby, you kinda become a moving base

[Dwight34]

4 minutes ago, Edible Coal said:

kina funny if you got chester, bunny horn, your backpack and woby, you kinda become a moving base

You become one, but only in autumn. I like the idea of Walter as a nomadic character, but he doesn't have any Walter-specific answer to rain, heat, cold, wildfires, frog rains... which his skill tree may fix. Again, Wurt does all that much better, she ignores rain entirely and even benefits from it, has infinite sanity regen from fishes, can ignore both heat and cold thanks to them, and has a huge pool of all stats to last a long time. And nobody needs both chester and woby, that's an extreme amount of inventory slots, especially if you get a krampus sack as well.

Imagine if as Walter you could make the tent unbreakable and upgrade it in different ways to add a linked moving campfire/heatsource to heat you up, an umbrella to protect from rain and heat, all of that could make him a fantastic nomad. Imagine a tent that you could upgrade with a portable scaled furnace, a portable ice crystallizer, an enlightened shard for infinite light...

[Catuna_]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Oh, sorry, I forgot that Wolfgang can choose to entirely turn off being wet.

It's cool that you can do that but it's not anything major, although I agree it's one of Warly's good dishes

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

And freezing in winter.
And overheating in summer.

yes, it's called a thermal stone
the dragon chili salad and asparagazpacho are so incredibly bad considering how the asparagazpacho is outdone by thermal stone + watering can/ice chester or luxury fan or going into the caves (while being a lot higher effort than any of the alternatives) and how dragon chili salad needs a dragonfruit and a pepper both better used on dragonpie/chili flakes respectively and they only last for 5 minutes

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

And give himself two full days of passive hands-free light without sacrificing any equipment slots.

the light becomes unusable way too quickly. anyone can eat glowberries to get a similar effect (Wigfrid can feed them to eyemask/critters in her inventory) or the new nightvision berries which im not gonna focus on cause i havent used them ingame yet, just worth mentioning probably

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

And make his work twice as efficient for a couple honey.

yes??? he does it for free while mighty and he has the chance to oneshot work

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

And give himself damage resistance and a boost to damage that stack with other sources.

warly himself does not have any other damage boosts to profit from excluding the warbis helm to stack with his volt goat jelly, higher damage modifiers and electric damage pairs terribly with planar damage also

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You know all that stuff people said earlier about Woby making it so you don't need a backpack and can use clothes or armor? Warly makes it so you don't need a miner hat/lantern/torch, thermal stone, eyebrella, or any season-specific gear. Forget the days of having to care about wetness when fighting during rain, about having to worry about anything but wildfires during summer, or needing to stop to torch a tree for 30 seconds every five minutes in winter - the right dishes let Warly just straight-up ignore it all.

walter doesn't need to keep farming for woby, as woby spawns with you and gives you her benefits from the get-go and monster meat is much more readily available than all of the combinations of resources you'd need (fish, frog legs, glowberries, pepper, volt goat horns, garlic, etc.)
not to mention the umbralla already achieves the effect of keeping your hands and head free for wetness immunity, although it is post-fw
warly would need to stop to farm an insane amount of resources to use dragon chili salad or asparagazpacho often enough for this to be applicable, i'd rather a stop and stare at a tree for 30s than have to mass farm these resources as a character with no farming perks
you're talking like you have infinite resources off spawn

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Also, if you actually do the math, Warly in rain outdamages Mighty Wolfgang with Volt Goat Chaud-Froid alone versus wet enemies, and it only gets higher if you add chili powder. Volt Goat Chaud-Froid is 1.5x normally against dry enemies (1.8x, just shy of Wolfgang, if you add chili powder) and 2.5x (or 3x with chili powder) against wet enemies. 

yes, that's why i said "conditional" as warly doesn't even reach wolfgang's damage mod until the world is wet, without wickerbottom you're waiting until spring and like i stated in my earlier post that's time you could be spending just beating bosses normally... it also only lasts for 5min and uses volt goat horns which are by no means cheap

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

That's completely ignoring the absurdity of giving a Wolfgang spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid, which Warly can do because he's a supportpilled sharemaxxing gigachad with basically all of his abilities. 

with a combined damage mod of 3x you really don't need to boost anybody further, no boss is going to last more than 3m with 2+ players where at least one is playing wolfgang
warly as a damage boosting support is so backwards because the more the players that are present in a server the less the need for a damage boost at all

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Warly isn't "a conditional dollar store Wolfgang". Wolfgang's the easy mode character while, if you put in the effort, Warly lets you surpass even Wolfgang's damage output while also being able to work faster, survive every season, and handle darkness better than most characters.

Literally the only thing holding Warly back from being among the strongest characters by himself (because he's S+ tier as part of a team thanks to buffing his teammates) is the low drop rate of volt goat horns.

warly is an expensive character whose kit is full of gimmicks that suffer the same balancing fate of Walter being too costly for too little reward compared to the alternatives.
he relies on expensive resources whose effects dont even last a day to solve problems that never existed, I never asked for more than a thermal stone for winter and/or a beefalo hat playing any character...Which sure, you can argue it's cool QoL but when this """QoL""" requires I slave away at the most obnoxious crops to grow I am not very interested personally

[Frosty_Mentos]

He isn't terrible and never really was. His perks are strong and his downsides barely exist. He has high early mid game gameplay before going steeply down in lategame becoming more of a hauler than anything else.

In my opinion the bee downside is probably the worst part for many about him and his downsides. Considering that he has a clunky ranged weapon and bees always chase you it makes for a fairly annoying combat. Other thing is that the clunkiness of his slingshot and slowness doesn't really help him too much but to make life easier if you only hunt for small critters and forage, because he is a nomadic kinda character by design as a scout. He can self sustain but his progression until skilltrees is pretty linear and only has damage increase. His gem shots are kinda pretty strong for kiting tho ngl, it simply would take a lot of time and effort to prepare enough resources for him to both gather and then kill for that time as how he is right now.

We are most used to melee combat in this game and ranged weapons never been really well balanced and often critiqued by some community members as it is too cheesy or something. Thus the idea of ranged never gotten developed further and it is a consequence of not having good balance or proper resource costs to be made in return of proper amount of ranged weapon. It is cheaper to use melee weapons by all means cause they're more along side of being overpowered and quicker to use.

Not enough enemies are balanced around fighting against ranged weapons unless those that have speed to catch up. I don't count simple mobs for being part of it cause they're more fit for slaughter daily without caring if anything is balanced around killing them or not, but for more special mob cases there aren't that many to care about either. Mostly just bosses.

---

I love his tent he can craft, the hat seems cute if fashion choice and screenshots as a sort of a decorative item. I rate his survival at highest and combat being mid at best. Not a DPS type but he brings convenience for chill sessions and a good vibe.

[Jakepeng99]

There are quite a lot of people who act like him having perks like "gain 1.2 sainity when near trees" and "lose 2x less hunger when sleeping" ruin him for some reason.

 

Only thing he nèeds really is more Woby interactions and a more efficent slingshot.

[Edible Coal]

4 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

warly is an expensive character whose kit is full of gimmicks that suffer the same balancing fate of Walter being too costly for too little reward compared to the alternatives.
he relies on expensive resources whose effects dont even last a day to solve problems that never existed, I never asked for more than a thermal stone for winter and/or a beefalo hat playing any character...Which sure, you can argue it's cool QoL but when this """QoL""" requires I slave away at the most obnoxious crops to grow I am not very interested personally

warly works best in a group , one warly means EVERYONE get spices and his food perks . other can farm for him if he's busy doing stuff (like wormwood).

walter doesnt have the same support like his or as impactful with his tent and stories , his support just provide some QOL that most veteran wont really need.

(wickerbottom is so good becuase of this as well, her ability to change the world around her makes her good in a team comp)

[Catuna_]

1 hour ago, Edible Coal said:

warly works best in a group , one warly means EVERYONE get spices and his food perks . other can farm for him if he's busy doing stuff (like wormwood).

walter doesnt have the same support like his or as impactful with his tent and stories , his support just provide some QOL that most veteran wont really need.

(wickerbottom is so good becuase of this as well, her ability to change the world around her makes her good in a team comp)

warly works worst in a group, where due to the sheer number of players his spices and volt goat jelly become less and less useful and his costs become higher bc of more mouths to feed due to the sheer amount of people present (notably in combat) but also when it comes to gathering and such, where you'd have better characters at each individual role...
warly is a character whose qol is not only worked for, strangely unlike a lot of characters like wurt, but it's also so minor that a "veteran" as you said would much rather just have extra inventory slots lol..... i dont like warly's design u can tell
but i think neither side will change their mind so we should just call this quits

[Kevinnator]

He looks fun to play as tbh, I just haven't gotten around to it. Don't care if the slingshot ain't optimal dps, it seems pretty useful regardless to get a few hits in from a safe distance or kill birds. Wobby being both a chester and Beefalo seems very useful. You can carry so many supplies or gather a ton of stuff before being full. Beginner friendly he is not as getting hit is punished extra hard but he seems a lot better than people give him credit for.

[ShadowDuelist]

What I dislike about walter is the missed opportunity, his design is not bad, just poorly implemented.

His slingshot seems to be a side weapon from its conception, since you get all these different crowd control and special effects pellets, but realistically you can’t make much if it (an ice staff is generally better and cheaper than his ice pellets, poop pellets are extremely situational, etc). 

IMO the slingshot should be balanced around being a powerful crowd control item you use as a side weapon, much like Maxwells’s prison and shadow sneak, it should affect multiple enemies if timed correctly too.

About Woby, it generally ends up being better to tame a beefalo to overcome Walter’s con entirely. Also since qoby has no attack and the slingshot is pretty bad in terms of DPS, without a beefalo you always end up having to fight on your feet.
Woby could use some more unique abilities besides being an esrly game cheap exploration beefalo, IMO. Something that you cant replace with any beefalo, to offer some unique late game gameplay (EG a controlled dodge ability, a short distsnce jump to cross small gaps or escape danger, etc.) He could also get some skill that allows walter to use most melee weapons while mounted on Woby, as if he were on the ground.
 

Walter has the potential to become the true “expert player character” you flex about, with high mobility, perfect dodging, and superior crowd control. I’d avoid going the route of a mindless “stay in a corner and shoot away” gameplay

[aidankocherhans]

11 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

ruins are a breeze as walter on woby you can just run past every threat considering that you're fast enough to be able to kite bishops (or u can use poop pellets if you really really wanna i guess)

You can kite bishops? How do you do that? Those are the main enemy I've had trouble with as Walter

[fabin]

i just hate his personality. he has funni cute dog, but that's about it, he just kinda has the personality of a rock

funnily enough, character personalities are more of a turn-off for me than actual gameplay mechanics

[Catuna_]

4 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

You can kite bishops? How do you do that? Those are the main enemy I've had trouble with as Walter

ontop of woby you have enough speed to dodge the shots, or you can fire poop pellets on them as they're charging up their shot and they'll stop trying to fire until the next attack
or you can jsut set them on fire with a torch or hide in a snurtle shell lol your choice

[Radicaljoe]

I did a Walter run of fw and cc, and I have to say I've never felt a stronger sense of "this would be easier as a different character" before. I did put some limits on myself, using only the slingshot and Woby, and no Beefalo or melee weapons. It was just a lot of grinding ammunition. I spent much of my time at pk trading bird morsels for more gold rounds. I used gold rounds for everything but fw and cc, and I went through my entire supply of marble I had been growing for those 2 fights.(120 day run) He was cool, and I could see how nice Woby was for speed without the beefalo training. but everything just felt like it was tedious. Majority of my fights were just me getting into a position where the enemy/boss couldn't pathfind to me properly. I did enjoy the cc fight though, though it used up so many marble rounds, it was the first fight where something was standing still long enough for me to use my slingshot without needing to get it stuck. 
Which brings me to my issues with Walter, the slingshot fires so slowly that there is relatively little time to put in any decent damage before needing to reposition. I know I could have used the cursed rounds, but I considered them too expensive to be reliable. 

The no-sanity drain is cool, but losing sanity over time like normal characters is more manageable for me than the bulk sanity loss I was experiencing with Walter. I know I can wear the hat, but the head slot is already such a competitive slot for all the other things I need. 

Woby was probably the best part, she had no downsides and it was fun having a little friend follow me around. Extra space was also nice(though she was mostly carrying around ammunition supplies) I never fought on her though because I didn't want to risk getting thrown off.

But I did the entire run because I wanted to see if my judgment was rational. And I think I was a little harsh on Walter before playing him, I still think he's unfun, but I no longer think the people who play him are trolling like Wes players saying Wes is good. For me, Walter just logically seems generally inefficient and has no reasonable tradeoff. But I can see how he can be fun for others.

[grm9]

Just now, Radicaljoe said:

I did put some limits on myself, using only the slingshot and no Beefalo or melee weapons

that was what made it suck, not just playing as walter

[Radicaljoe]

But that's like one of the main Walter things, that'd be like Willow without Bernie(preskilltree)

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

warly works worst in a group, where due to the sheer number of players his spices and volt goat jelly become less and less useful and his costs become higher bc of more mouths to feed due to the sheer amount of people present (notably in combat) but also when it comes to gathering and such, where you'd have better characters at each individual role...
warly is a character whose qol is not only worked for, strangely unlike a lot of characters like wurt, but it's also so minor that a "veteran" as you said would much rather just have extra inventory slots lol..... i dont like warly's design u can tell
but i think neither side will change their mind so we should just call this quits

Dude, you're tripping if you think Warly's features are "so minor". They are literally game-changing. Yeah, a lot of them are QoL, but they're really good QoL. 

You know what happens when your Asparagazpacho runs out in summer? You just eat another one. No juggling thermals, no endothermic campfires, no chilling amulets, no waiting around. You just eat another one. Unlike with stat values, there's no diminishing returns on food effects as Warly, so you can just keep doing that until you run out, and farming for giants once in spring will get you enough asparagus to last you through to autumn.

Also, define "a group". If it's 6+ players, yeah, nothing in the game is a threat anymore anyway and you won't notice buffs as much, but that's a much bigger balance issue the game has and Klei ought to get around to adding dynamic boss scaling, so it's not Warly's fault. Hell, it won't really matter if you have four Wolfgangs in a group of twelve players, everything's gonna die in five seconds anyway as long as everyone has a basic understanding of combat. 

In a group of up to four, though, it really does make a big difference, and that's usually what you'll find yourself in when you're fighting a boss. Scheduling makes it tricky to get more than that many people online at once often, and in Klei servers, I don't usually find more than that who're willing to, say, come out and fight Dragonfly with me (which, by the way, I can make wet in the first autumn by using a watering can on a farm plot so that my electric damage gets its wetness effect), or come fight the Shadow Pieces or whatever else. 

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Dude, you're tripping if you think Warly's features are "so minor". They are literally game-changing. Yeah, a lot of them are QoL, but they're really good QoL. 

You know what happens when your Asparagazpacho runs out in summer? You just eat another one. No juggling thermals, no endothermic campfires, no chilling amulets, no waiting around. You just eat another one. Unlike with stat values, there's no diminishing returns on food effects as Warly, so you can just keep doing that until you run out, and farming for giants once in spring will get you enough asparagus to last you through to autumn

spending 15 days on setting up a farm, growing asparaguses, mining ice and cooking gazpachoes vs spending 1 or 2 days on getting a thermal and a watering can and filling it and watering thermal during entire summer

[aidankocherhans]

21 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

I used gold rounds for everything but fw and cc

Well there's your problem, gold rounds are not meant for bosses. You should always prioritize cursed rounds for major bosses

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

In a group of up to four, though, it really does make a big difference

boss gets melted instead of getting melted? you could've killed the boss around as fast with 1 wolfgang and 1 wilson as with 1 warly and 1 wilson if taking preparation time into account

Just now, aidankocherhans said:

Well there's your problem, gold rounds are not meant for bosses. You should always prioritize cursed rounds for major bosses

you shouldn't use slingshot for bosses

[DegenerateFurry]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

boss gets melted instead of getting melted? you could've killed the boss around as fast with 1 wolfgang and 1 wilson as with 1 warly and 1 wilson if taking preparation time into account

you shouldn't use slingshot for bosses

I mean, if the general consensus is that Warly needs buffed, I'm not gonna argue against it? I don't agree and I actually think they should increase his food memory's duration (double it), but maybe they could do that in addition to buffs to the duration of his food effects/spices. 

[Radicaljoe]

8 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Well there's your problem, gold rounds are not meant for bosses. You should always prioritize cursed rounds for major bosses

Clops and shark boi. Those were the 2 bosses that I used the gold rounds for. That doesn't take away from the gold rounds for everything else.

[Catuna_]

49 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You know what happens when your Asparagazpacho runs out in summer? You just eat another one. No juggling thermals, no endothermic campfires, no chilling amulets, no waiting around. You just eat another one. Unlike with stat values, there's no diminishing returns on food effects as Warly, so you can just keep doing that until you run out, and farming for giants once in spring will get you enough asparagus to last you through to autumn.

in the 10s it takes to cook an asparagazpacho i could just water my thermal stone though... that's excluding the fact that asparagazpacho needs farming and ice mining which are both pretty lengthy tasks compared to just watering a thermal stone... you're over exaggerating everything you say
you stated earlier that warly "eliminates the need for clothing" when you want clothing to make your temperature last more after the effect runs out so that you don't have to chug nearly as many salads/gazpachos

51 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Also, define "a group". If it's 6+ players, yeah, nothing in the game is a threat anymore anyway and you won't notice buffs as much, but that's a much bigger balance issue the game has and Klei ought to get around to adding dynamic boss scaling, so it's not Warly's fault. Hell, it won't really matter if you have four Wolfgangs in a group of twelve players, everything's gonna die in five seconds anyway as long as everyone has a basic understanding of combat. 

2+ players, it doesn't need to be warly's fault for what i said to be true
"support characters" in dst never work as a result, and people's general unwillingness to stick to playing warly really reflects that
although to be fair, he's also just suffering from old design syndrome

53 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

In a group of up to four, though, it really does make a big difference, and that's usually what you'll find yourself in when you're fighting a boss. Scheduling makes it tricky to get more than that many people online at once often, and in Klei servers, I don't usually find more than that who're willing to, say, come out and fight Dragonfly with me (which, by the way, I can make wet in the first autumn by using a watering can on a farm plot so that my electric damage gets its wetness effect), or come fight the Shadow Pieces or whatever else. 

yeah it's true dragonfly can be watered to scale the damage can't argue against that, but she's also not a very hard nor time consuming boss either in terms of preparation and the fight itself, she's the first raid boss people tend to beat
i think we should stop talking about this and stay ontopic on the thread though, especially since neither of us is willing to change their mind
 

changing back to the og topic (On the topic of Dragonfly though), I managed to beat her wall-less with relatively low resources and no walls as Walter
I really think people blow Walter's sanity loss out of proportion... It's really never that bad in my experience

[flamboyant wolf]

I love Walter, I really do. I played him a lot before YotB. And he did get a lot of unfair criticism in the earlier days, that's for sure. However, 

In their current state, most of his biggest perks are simply useless/unremarkable. Slingshot that is somehow both weaker and more expensive than most weapons in the game, a mount that's on average slower than the default beefalo. Sure, the tent and extra inventory are nice, as well as not caring for passive sanity drain, but that's as good as it gets. 

High hopes for his skill tree though.