Klei needs to stop trying to turn Don’t Starve into Terraria

[SilverSpoon]

Simply fixing exploits, bugs, and cheese, It could simply make game be worse.

The recent fix to Voidwalk is a good example. First there is searching the Tentapillar going to the atrium that everyone hated. Then there was Voidwalk for that. After that Voidwalk was fixed and Spelunker's Bridge Kit was implemented. But the atrium was blacklisted on Spelunker's Bridge Kit. In the end only there is searching the Tentapillar going to the atrium that everyone hated remained. This is an example of a game simply getting worse.

After that, Klei received backlash from the community, and the Tentapillar going to the atrium were made into set pieces as they are now. This fixed the bug and made the game better.

[Mysterious box]

53 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Simply fixing exploits, bugs, and cheese, It could simply make game be worse.

The recent fix to Voidwalk is a good example. First there is searching the Tentapillar going to the atrium that everyone hated. Then there was Voidwalk for that. After that Voidwalk was fixed and Spelunker's Bridge Kit was implemented. But the atrium was blacklisted on Spelunker's Bridge Kit. In the end only there is searching the Tentapillar going to the atrium that everyone hated remained. This is an example of a game simply getting worse.

After that, Klei received backlash from the community, and the Tentapillar going to the atrium were made into set pieces as they are now. This fixed the bug and made the game better.

This and ancient guardian is kinda the best argument for them fixing bugs and cheese though.

I mean think about it fixing the cheese made the community upset because there was a very specific reason those used those bugs which lead to people being vocal about why they used those bugs and the game being improved for everyone and not just people in the know about the exploits.

[SilverSpoon]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This and ancient guardian is kinda the best argument for them fixing bugs and cheese though.

I mean think about it fixing the cheese made the community upset because there was a very specific reason those used those bugs which lead to people being vocal about why they used those bugs and the game being improved for everyone and not just people in the know about the exploits.

I think AFW is in "In the end still some problems remained" phase currently. I still can't think currently AFW is satisfying (What I don't like about him is that it takes up a lot of valuable resources to go toe-to-toe with him). If some people still get upset because there was a very specific reason even with the current AFW, then I guess the problem still remains, and need more improved.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I think AFW is in "In the end still some problems remained" phase currently. I still can't think currently AFW is satisfying (What I don't like about him is that it takes up a lot of valuable resources to go toe-to-toe with him). If some people still get upset because there was a very specific reason even with the current AFW, then I guess the problem still remains, and need more improved.

I disagree the lunar rift gear was the solution they added and it works completely fine to my knowledge by lowering the resources you need for the fight massively.

[SilverSpoon]

18 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I disagree the lunar rift gear was the solution they added and it works completely fine to my knowledge by lowering the resources you need for the fight massively.

So "Weather pain" problem is OK about that. But still I have "The Lazy Explorer" problem. If the bone cage could be broken with a pickaxe, I'd be fine... And "Insanity" problem is still remain. 

Compared to the fact that the Celestial Champion can be defeated with just a spear and a log suit if he so desires(If you're a crazy badass, you can do it with your bare hands without any items), it seems like there is still room for improvement.

By the way, my solution is to restore the minimum items needed to fight AFW to the Atrium treasure chest. I think this will also solve the problem of no one properly conquering the Atrium. And It's will be hint for newbie. And also conductor about Ornery Chest.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Compared to the fact that the Celestial Champion can be defeated with just a spear and a log suit if he so desires, it seems like there is still room for improvement.

I'll be honest i consider that worse design you should have to improve your tactics for a final boss at least in my opinion.

[SilverSpoon]

38 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'll be honest i consider that worse design you should have to improve your tactics for a final boss at least in my opinion.

That's a bit... unexpected. I think the current Celestial Champion is close to perfect, even with its have instakill and annoying snares. I enjoy fighting him every time.

However, I don't think it's a bad idea to add who can only be defeated by making full use of items "Sin Celestial Champion : beyond of lift", for more challenge.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

That's a bit... unexpected. I think the current Celestial Champion is close to perfect, even with its have instakill and annoying snares. I enjoy fighting him every time.

I mean that's completely fine everyone has their own ideas about design afterall.

[arubaro]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'll be honest i consider that worse design you should have to improve your tactics for a final boss at least in my opinion.

Totally agree.  This isnt a hack n slash neithet any kind of game with complex combat mechanics and controls. Saying that CC is better than FW because you need to craft items, if you want an easy fight,  in a crafting sandbox game... 

[SilverSpoon]

26 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean that's completely fine everyone has their own ideas about design afterall.

If that's the outcome, it couldn't be better. I never dismiss your ideas. Actually that makes sense and kinda cool.

I'll keep to talk about my thought, If those everyone ideas makes the game better, then that's exactly it "game is being improved for everyone".

18 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Totally agree.  This isnt a hack n slash neithet any kind of game with complex combat mechanics and controls. Saying that CC is better than FW because you need to craft items, if you want an easy fight,  in a crafting sandbox game... 

The idea of "collecting and crafting items and fighting" is appropriate on DST, but I still can't like that it's in a passage point through a Rift. I don't mind it is optional boss and has proper income, like Queen Bee and Misery Toadstool.

The more newbie fail, the more they lose resources and fall into a vicious cycle. Especially if it is something like walrus tusks that you have to wait for the season to get, or orange gem or green gems or Bee Queen Crown that require a lot of effort to get, some cases players may stuck, argue or blame each other.

[Echsrick]

7 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Thats why cheeses are used to begin with. Dragonfly is so much more interesting with enraged form

so.....you call forcing dragonfly to be not enraged anymore a cheese? like.....AN IN GAME MECHANIC?!? alsol who even goin to fight enraged dragonfly? every time i see people die to that because they were not fast enought...and i doupt you were ever supposed to fight enraged dragonfly

[Frosty_Mentos]

The less exploits and more practical solutions for survival are more than welcome in my book.

Adjusting gameplay as new content comes is most important to a more polished and better product and experience of playing than any dumb bugs we would need to exploit in order to be able to enjoy the game.

There are no metas in this game, just new solutions to things we didn't have before.

The game isn't Terraria, imo it's more than Terraria in a sense that there's insane amount of effort put into every art detail animation and coding to be able to even work in a tiny machine like Nintendo (and possibly mobile too apparently).

Gameplay for combat and new weapon choices have made the game feel more and more smoother and pleasant to be able to deal with many foes old and new. New foes and resources added a lot to quality of life than anything had before.

We're now at the point where the game can go anywhere and devs are trying to accommodate each playstyle and enhance them greatly by character skilltrees and weapon choices we get.

We're also at the point where the game is finished by all means as to have a good amount of time to put into and enjoy and to have us guessing "where do we go from here, Klei?" that we still don't know if we're getting bigger system changes like with shards, or even having another shard possibly? Maybe they'll bring back Forge and Gorge or make a third event? Maybe the ocean and caves will expand into much bigger maps like with CoreKeeper where new and exotic areas will open up to us as something that is 'beyond'? Maybe the worlds we survive in will start drastically changing and environment will become more hostile and strange, bosses would warp and upgrade, the world would start adapting to us by setting up camps of pigs or merms or even new shop keepers from other worlds? Honestly we're not sure where this is going, but if this counts as Terraria in DST then it sounds more exciting than demeaning.

[arubaro]

8 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

If that's the outcome, it couldn't be better. I never dismiss your ideas. Actually that makes sense and kinda cool.

I'll keep to talk about my thought, If those everyone ideas makes the game better, then that's exactly it "game is being improved for everyone".

The idea of "collecting and crafting items and fighting" is appropriate on DST, but I still can't like that it's in a passage point through a Rift. I don't mind it is optional boss and has proper income, like Queen Bee and Misery Toadstool.

The more newbie fail, the more they lose resources and fall into a vicious cycle. Especially if it is something like walrus tusks that you have to wait for the season to get, or orange gem or green gems or Bee Queen Crown that require a lot of effort to get, some cases players may stuck, argue or blame each other.

They should totally add more ways of "teleporting" like how they added the new wigfrid's spear.

You get a lot of orange gems per ruins cleaning, that isnt an excuse. You only waste 1 or 2, depending if you use green amulet.

And i would agree about the BQ crown if was mandatory or if this discussion were a couple of years ago, now we have more sanity dishes

Also rollbacks exists. There is no same in repeating a hard fight until the player learn

Limiting the creativity on bosses in a game were we only press F and kite, optiona, is just wasting potential

[W0l0l0]

6 hours ago, Echsrick said:

so.....you call forcing dragonfly to be not enraged anymore a cheese? like.....AN IN GAME MECHANIC?!?

No, you're right. It is an intended mechanic. Calling it a cheese is essentially disagreeing with Klei. I should have said in combination with the walls I'd count it as a cheese, though I actually personally prefer if the walls could stay and the panflute strategy nerfed/removed. I know that isn't a popular opinion however.

6 hours ago, Echsrick said:

alsol who even goin to fight enraged dragonfly? every time i see people die to that because they were not fast enought...and i doupt you were ever supposed to fight enraged dragonfly

The "A New Reign" gameplay trailer literally shows players fighting enraged Dragonfly, I'm certain it's intended to be fought.  Especially given how hard it would be figure out the pan flute strategy experimentally. I really don't think Enraged Dragonfly is that hard. I find it far easier than Bee Queen, I reccomend you make a practice world and give it a go (you can stop Dragonfly in their tracks using an ice staff and then baiting out an attack).

[00petar00]

On 10/9/2024 at 2:12 PM, Gashzer said:

Developers don't praise people exploiting badly wrote code in their games. They patch them.

Don't use the word cheese, call them what they are, bugs. You are using unintended bugs to kill bosses. Cheese is making 40 bunnymen to kill bee queen, this isn't a bug, it's just massive overprep of a intended mechanic to steamroll a boss.

Which is completely different to exploiting a bug like for example the old lureplant exploit to block AFW. This was a bug and got patched.

Klei arnt removing cheese at all, they are fixing their game which should be praised not ridiculed.

Honestly klei hasn't done enough to boost the late game survival experience just yet. Rift content just isn't scratching that itch. We need a new area to unlock after both rifts are opened, we need more exploration.

DST shouldn't be about megabasing and if it is about megabasing. Why havnt we got a legitimate creative mode yet klei? 

Building 40 bunnymeen houses isn't a bug but what developers intended to be possible but even for things that developers don't intend If a lot of players like it there should be no reason to remove them unless it happens unintentionally and you can't avoid it.

I don't even understand how building too many bunnymen huts is a bug, it makes no logical sense.

Lureplant was patched and it was terrible for the game, so many players want fuelweaver nerfed and it will happen over time even If it doesn't happen directly, we will get more items or skill trees that can demolish the boss. The issue is that you want the game to be more difficult but don't consider that a lot of the playerbase doesn't want that so when the things you consider "bugs" get fixed the game will get easier because of the rest of the players that don't want to see these changes.

On 10/9/2024 at 6:45 PM, Maxil20 said:

I’m confused on how DST doesn’t give players player choice. Apart from the rift content (which was made because people wanted more endgame content), DST is extremely comparable to Terraria in terms of player choice. While the “final” bosses take time to reach, literally everything else is accessible from the start.

You want to go and setup a simple base in the first 20 days? You can do that! You want to rush the hardest area in the game and then afterwards go sailing to find the lunar and moon quay and then use those resources to build a souped up base in the first 20 days? You can do that!

While the bosses are the focal point for a good chunk of content, there is also nothing stopping you from needing to interact with them unless it’s the seasonal bosses (which are some of the easiest in the game) or specifically if you need an item from them. I didn’t bother fighting dragonfly until I had killed fuelweaver twice in my long term world because I simply didn’t feel any reason to deal with her that early on. The only exception I can think of is bosses that you need to kill to progress content, which is the only thing I can think of that you “have” to do to access the “harder” content.

If DST was more like terraria there would be more players, developers shouldn't listen to OP or anyone against this. Quite a lot of players like that type of gameplay including me.

  

On 10/10/2024 at 8:41 AM, Evelo said:

That is so untrue. It depends on what the developers want the players to feel. If the devs want the players to feel in their game. (pulling a mike here) Look at Helldivers 2. The game on launch was beloved by the playerbase because the game was balanced around the players being incredibly strong against everything. The developers did not intend for this to happen and changed the balance according to what they wanted the players to feel while playing. Granted that wasn't a smart decision because it was the opposite of what players wanted, but my point is: Devs desire the feeling of a game they make. They balance things to best achieve that feel. Or in certain circumstances prevent behavior that is not aligned with their desires.

Developers can feel what they want about the game but its not going to get new players and maybe even have the current ones quit. Most developers don't invest enough time playing games they develop so I don't see why you put them on such a high pedestal.

Balancing the game around players that want the game to be more difficult even when it makes no sense like removal of lurepalnt is a big issue with the game and that is why we are getting new threads about nerfing fuelweaver even more compared to before this change was implemented and it really doesn't affect good players that can kill FW before players can get lureplants.

Why do you think that developers that don't have anywhere close to 2000-5000 hours played should know what is the best for endless players? 

On 10/10/2024 at 6:55 PM, W0l0l0 said:

Disagree to an extent. When a bug bypasses elements of the game, it can become so normalised that people think Dragonfly is an easy boss because they've never once actually fought them the way they're intended to be. I think that sucks. It's a case by case basis, which brings me onto my second point.

You completely ommited the Ancient Guardian pillar strategy that was adapted into a game mechanic. Sure, bugs can certainly be good for the game, but it seems like you're presenting this argument as if Klei only squashes them, which is clearly not the case.

If klei considered it a priority it would've been patched, why do you think lavae can be so easily blocked from the fight? A lot of players reported it and developers said that it will stay like that before DF is reworked.

On 10/11/2024 at 2:34 AM, Evelo said:

Mega basers have the option of disabling settings, just as I have options of enabling them. If they want their perfect little world, they can disable it if they desire.

How many times do we have to say that current setting options are not a choice. So many servers use default unless klei decides to change default settings for endless gamemode I don't see how this would be of any use.

On 10/12/2024 at 12:59 AM, W0l0l0 said:

This is a nonsensical argument because you're attributing an unfair set of choices to the players making the choices. Players are generally going to follow the path of least resistance, and a game that punishes players for taking a more skillful road isn't the players fault for not taking that road.

I can tell people all day to try to fight Enraged Dragonfly like I do, but I'd be just telling them to do something harder for no reward.

If that is your argument everything should be as easy as possible since players want least resistance they obviously want game to be easier so developers should make the game so easy that no one will want to make it difficult for themselves.

11 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

This and ancient guardian is kinda the best argument for them fixing bugs and cheese though.

I mean think about it fixing the cheese made the community upset because there was a very specific reason those used those bugs which lead to people being vocal about why they used those bugs and the game being improved for everyone and not just people in the know about the exploits.

I really don't see how this is good for the game. AG was a good rework and we got something similar to exploit but players accepted it because it was what everyone wanted, this should counter your argument.

4 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

The less exploits and more practical solutions for survival are more than welcome in my book.

Adjusting gameplay as new content comes is most important to a more polished and better product and experience of playing than any dumb bugs we would need to exploit in order to be able to enjoy the game.

There are no metas in this game, just new solutions to things we didn't have before.

The game isn't Terraria, imo it's more than Terraria in a sense that there's insane amount of effort put into every art detail animation and coding to be able to even work in a tiny machine like Nintendo (and possibly mobile too apparently).

Gameplay for combat and new weapon choices have made the game feel more and more smoother and pleasant to be able to deal with many foes old and new. New foes and resources added a lot to quality of life than anything had before.

We're now at the point where the game can go anywhere and devs are trying to accommodate each playstyle and enhance them greatly by character skilltrees and weapon choices we get.

We're also at the point where the game is finished by all means as to have a good amount of time to put into and enjoy and to have us guessing "where do we go from here, Klei?" that we still don't know if we're getting bigger system changes like with shards, or even having another shard possibly? Maybe they'll bring back Forge and Gorge or make a third event? Maybe the ocean and caves will expand into much bigger maps like with CoreKeeper where new and exotic areas will open up to us as something that is 'beyond'? Maybe the worlds we survive in will start drastically changing and environment will become more hostile and strange, bosses would warp and upgrade, the world would start adapting to us by setting up camps of pigs or merms or even new shop keepers from other worlds? Honestly we're not sure where this is going, but if this counts as Terraria in DST then it sounds more exciting than demeaning.

It makes no sense to compare terraria to DST that much, in DST we have to manage health, hunger and sanity and death is much more punishing.

Just because you want more "polished" content it doesn't mean that most players that enjoy exploiting or abusing mechanics to kill bosses with least resources invested is a problem, you can just not do that. How can you defend lureplant fix for FW when it is optional? This isn't a competitive game like it was stated so many times in the past.

In the current situation you may like the changes and new items but not everyone does, so why should klei make game worse for some players when it doesn't affect other players that don't use these exploits as long as it requires something unique and intentional to trigger them?

I wish DST would go in the direction of Terraria because it would mean that it is more of an rpg and we won't have too many terrible survival mechanics that people the forums push for when majority of the players are always going to be casuals.

[grm9]

14 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

I did read it, but I'm struggling to understand what you mean and what your actual point is. Can you elaborate and be a little less passively aggressive please

idk how's new AG pillar stun an adaptation of old AG cheese considering that you do them differently, get different results and people did them for different reasons

old AG setup: walk into a corner between void and pillar and start holding F until boss dies

old AG result: boss dies while you're doing some more fun thing when afk with some thing on the attack button

old AG reason: skipping a boring fight

new AG setup: make AG ram into a pillar or rubble and start holding F for until it wakes up

new AG result: hit boss for some time, most likely not killing it after doing that once and needing to do that again

new AG reason: no faster way for killing the boss nor a way for skipping the fight so just need to do this boring thing multiple times for the loot or just killing the boss if you wanted to for what ever reason

[W0l0l0]

Just now, 00petar00 said:

If that is your argument everything should be as easy as possible since players want least resistance they obviously want game to be easier so developers should make the game so easy that no one will want to make it difficult for themselves

Yes.

This is exactly what's happening.

The power creep.

The call for Fuelweaver nerfs.

The vast majority of players fighting Dragonfly with walls + panflute.

The most popular characters being the easiest ones.

Nerfs to characters are incredibly rare because of this, and the backlash.

I've personally been against the power creep, and blame it for rifts and planar mechanics. Not to say I think all exploits are bad either, some are brilliant.

[grm9]

11 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Compared to the fact that the Celestial Champion can be defeated with just a spear and a log suit if he so desires(If you're a crazy badass, you can do it with your bare hands without any items), it seems like there is still room for improvement

you can do same with FW with either sanity and insanity food in addition to that or good nightmares RNG, the difference's that the only threat when doing that with CC's falling asleep from boredom and with FW it's dying because of messing up, since minimal gear fight's hard

14 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

But I don't believe players always prioritise fun. As stated previously, I believe players follow the path of least resistance. Thats why cheeses are used to begin with. Dragonfly is so much more interesting with enraged form, and yet hardly anyone plays against it. The game must sometimes force us to deal with things that we might not like at first

i think that people should just start trying stuff on their own instead of asking the devs to force them to do that because other people might not want to get forced into doing that and their fun'd get ruined

a lot of people'd most likely cheese, complain about or not fight dfly if fighting enraged'd've been required for killing it so i think that it'd be better to give an additional reward for doing that instead of forcing every one to do that

[00petar00]

10 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Yes.

This is exactly what's happening.

The power creep.

The call for Fuelweaver nerfs.

The vast majority of players fighting Dragonfly with walls + panflute.

The most popular characters being the easiest ones.

Nerfs to characters are incredibly rare because of this, and the backlash.

I've personally been against the power creep, and blame it for rifts and planar mechanics. Not to say I think all exploits are bad either, some are brilliant.

This wouldn't be happening and it isn't powercreep because lureplant boss blocking existed before all the skill trees and other additions that made game much easier.

Nerfs to characters won't happen, even the "nerf" to wolfgang was uncalled for and reverted.

There's no reason for DST to not have powerful characters and weak characters so you can choose the way you like to play the game, I want to play strong character so why should it balanced according to your logic? If you like to game to be more difficult play Wes.

This is a sandbox game and balance isn't important, I'd go out of my way to say that characters being unbalanced is better for the game because anyone can play the way they want.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

really don't see how this is good for the game. AG was a good rework and we got something similar to exploit but players accepted it because it was what everyone wanted, this should counter your argument.

A change that helps everyone vs a bug that helps the few people who know about it I don't see how this doesn't help the game? Again lets take void walking for example how many people did that really help vs bridges and the set piece? Can you honestly say void walking was better for the game than the solution to the reason people void walked? These changes are making the game better because it's working to remove the reason people even do these exploits making the quality of life better for the average player.

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Nerfs to characters won't happen, even the "nerf" to wolfgang was uncalled for and reverted.

It really wasn't simply softened.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It really wasn't simply softened

wdym? wolfgang rework was a buff, he was only worse for like 5 or less days long runs before they made him get mightiness from doing any thing and starting dumb bell not suck, now he's just better for every thing

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

wdym? wolfgang rework was a buff, he was only worse for like 5 or less days long runs before they made him get mightiness from doing any thing and starting dumb bell not suck, now he's just better for every thing

I mean they buffed his mightiness gain but his speed is still split up.

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

There's no reason for DST to not have powerful characters and weak characters so you can choose the way you like to play the game, I want to play strong character so why should it balanced according to your logic? If you like to game to be more difficult play Wes.

This is a sandbox game and balance isn't important, I'd go out of my way to say that characters being unbalanced is better for the game because anyone can play the way they want.

The thing is dst isn't just a sandbox it's a multiplayer survival game and because of that balance is important to avoid lopsided difficulties and ruining the multiplayer experience. You can't have a huge gap between characters without causing problems that only really works for a single player game.

[grm9]

28 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean they buffed his mightiness gain but his speed is still split up

all other buffs compensated no speed boost for fighting and we pretty much got it back for not fighting since pre rework wolfgang's speed boost also effectively was 5% or 10% for not fighting if taking amount of time that you wasted on getting x3 food and eating it into account

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

If DST was more like terraria there would be more players, developers shouldn't listen to OP or anyone against this. Quite a lot of players like that type of gameplay including me

Then they should develope a game like terraria instead of ruining dst... or players that want to play terraria like unispired games have a wide variery of titles

[Anis5240]

I only have one thing to say anyway: this game is NOT boss simulator #7940 yet Klei did it anyway. Like, I don't know bout y'all but if a boss is the highlight of the update then it's just bad????? And god knows how bloated the items in this game are, which are mostly left unused.