Hardmode is not the way to go.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

Right, but still both add more work to existing gameplay loops

only an annoyance in case of brightshades and you only need to kill ink blights once a year or so to keep using the void cloth umbrella

[Mysterious box]

Just now, grm9 said:

isn't bernie worse in comparison to earmuffs? that seems worthless

Yep but some insulation and a heat source does much better than no insulation and a heat source.

 

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

or play as a character with more useful perks

Who was more useful? She had a field of expertise no other character had.

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

doubt that unless you mean when also fighting something else

People still die to nightmares.

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that was practically never worth using because it was better to kill nightmares yourself

The taunt took pressure off the player in combat situations while adding a little extra damage.

16 minutes ago, grm9 said:

best at resource gathering so still better

And she was the best at fighting shadows.

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

tbf he might've been pretty useful against DST bosses considering that he tanked through using logs instead of armor and healing although idk

Considering the time skip would have been gone the odds of him getting killed using it would be more likely.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

And she was the best at fighting shadows

ham bat was better

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Considering the time skip would have been gone the odds of him getting killed using it would be more likely

you wouldn't want to turn back out of beaver before killing whatever were you fighting either way

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Who was more useful? She had a field of expertise no other character had

killing 2 specific enemies less efficiently in comparison to how all characters can

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The taunt took pressure off the player in combat situations

idk what's pressure supposed to be and in what context

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

People still die to nightmares

i'm not talking about newbies

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Yep but some insulation and a heat source does much better than no insulation and a heat source

almost no one does winter start though

[Mysterious box]

25 minutes ago, grm9 said:

ham bat was better

Then play Wolfgang instead?

 

25 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you wouldn't want to turn back out of beaver before killing whatever were you fighting either way

Or taking your own words why not play a better character instead?

26 minutes ago, grm9 said:

killing 2 specific enemies less efficiently in comparison to how all characters can

As opposed to playing a character who only helps with mass farming 2 specific resources?

27 minutes ago, grm9 said:

idk what's pressure supposed to be and in what context

You do know he has a taunt that pulls enemies off Willow right?

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i'm not talking about newbies

Well if the average player is a noob i guess the game should tone down content more.

[grm9]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Then play Wolfgang instead?

or just still use ham bat even when you have bernie because it's better?

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Or taking your own words why not play a better character instead?

because using perks of a character might be fun, sucks when it's just 2 somewhat useful perks and 1 perk that's not really worth using in comparison to stuff that doesn't depend on characters

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

You do know he has a taunt that pulls enemies off Willow right?

i do but what're you going to use that on? killing spiders?

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Well if the average player is a noob i guess the game should tone down content more

i don't see most people die when fighting nightmares without other stuff attacking them

[Swiyss]

Guys stop replying word for word that's kinda weird to do.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

or just still use ham bat even when you have bernie because it's better?

What point are you trying to make here?

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

because using perks of a character might be fun, sucks when it's just 2 somewhat useful perks and 1 perk that's not really worth using in comparison to stuff that doesn't depend on characters

This is just your opinion how useful a skill is depends on the player for example Woodie's wood harvesting ability seems crappy to someone who uses pigs to chop wood and the beaver form's combat abilities are just inferior to Wolfgang's and Wigfrid's.

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

do but what're you going to use that on? killing spiders?

So the only horde you fight are spiders or nightmare creatures? I can understand why you'd think Bernie was bad if so.

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

don't see most people die when fighting nightmares without other stuff attacking them

If only something could was there to take that pressure off while fighting that other thing....if only...

[abrocator]

I don’t understand the veteran players that simultaneously give off the vibe that they mastered the game six years ago while also expecting the game to be as challenging as before they mastered it. How does that make sense? Also bonus points for sarcastically mentioning the “uncompromising survival” slogan as if every word ever said should be taken literally.

Did this game ever exist? The one where a veteran player could be continually challenged by the survival aspect? Not in DS, and also not in DST. That was never the case.

There’s a limit (due to the control scheme and the lowest common denominator, namely console) to how mechanically complex this game can be, even though some players play in another league even compared to other veterans. But in the end it’s mostly about knowledge and experience and less about raw execution.

As far as the “content” goes, they keep adding more and more endgame stuff. And the veterans that are into these two things seem to be fine with it:

1. Base building
2. Boss rushing

Because there’s more to do. The first group for the rewards (like those new treasure chest seeds) and the second group for the new bosses.

[grm9]

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

What point are you trying to make here?

bernie sucks because killing nightmares on your own's better

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This is just your opinion how useful a skill is depends on the player for example Woodie's wood harvesting ability seems crappy to someone who uses pigs to chop wood and the beaver form's combat abilities are just inferior to Wolfgang's and Wigfrid's

nah perks're bad if they aren't even better in comparison to what most other characters can use at what you're supposed to use them for in case of bernie for nightmares and even if you cook 5 stacks of monster meat, that's 50 seconds saved during a playthrough

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So the only horde you fight are spiders or nightmare creatures? I can understand why you'd think Bernie was bad if so

what else? don't monkeys just kill it before you kill them?

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

If only something could was there to take that pressure off while fighting that other thing....if only...

yeah, that's all that that's useful for, could've just started the fight with full sanity in case of everything except werepig and FW though

3 minutes ago, abrocator said:

second group for the new bosses

we didn't get any proper bosses since 2017 except CK that got pretty much removed

[abrocator]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

we didn't get any proper bosses since 2017 except CK that got pretty much removed

Proper? I don’t get it.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Proper? I don’t get it

hard and interesting, all bosses that we've got're easier in comparison to 2016 and 2017 bosses

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

bernie sucks because killing nightmares on your own's better

nah perks're bad if they aren't even better in comparison to what most other characters can use at what you're supposed to use them for in case of bernie for nightmares and even if you cook 5 stacks of monster meat, that's 50 seconds saved in a playthrough

what else? don't monkeys just kill it before you kill them?

yeah, that's all that that's useful for, could've just started the fight with full sanity in case of everything except werepig and FW though

I'm just confused by your ideas of content and viability 

[loopuleasa]

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

5k hours in 9 years for example is honestly not that much.

 

4 hours ago, Antynomity said:

Point is, DST is absolutely a game built to play for thousands of hours

 

Guys, we are not normal.

[zhangsheng]

This topic seems to have deviated from its theme and gradually evolved into a confrontation between new and old players. I don't understand what the argument is about. Why can't we discuss a win-win solution as both players are playing this game?

[chirsg]

16 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

This topic seems to have deviated from its theme and gradually evolved into a confrontation between new and old players. I don't understand what the argument is about. Why can't we discuss a win-win solution as both players are playing this game?

I don't even think there is a theme. OP acknowledged that there isn't a straightforward point. 

All I want to say is that I want hamlet features in dst. 

[Milordo]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Would you say the current skill trees are balanced for the early game? If you feel so then fine I guess but if not how do you handle content going forward for the early game? To you handle content with the understanding that the skill tree exist despite them being intended for the endgame or do you blatantly ignore the fact skills steamroll content? When I say content I more so mean major content by the way.

Well no, I don't think current skill trees are balanced for the early game but neither well thought at anything. Like, I don't even want to use the term balance with those system because it's already out of the window, the skill trees are not designed to a precise moment of the game, as they cover pretty much everything, early-game, mid-game and end-game. After that I don't get your point and what you're trying to say to me. You could rework the skill trees to be better integrated to the game (I would directly remove them but oh well...) so they're not a problem anymore. Keep going the philosophy of 2019-2022 era into balance and polish all the game. The list of how many things need to be fixed in the game is immense and dense and people keep coming again and again asking those things to be fixed. In conclusion I would move all the rifts content into the game since there is no reason to not have acid rains in the caves before rifts as well the new shadows in the ruins. This is just an example but a try to explain why I said "Also I disagree that "hard mode" is the only direction the game can go"  

[Wormboi]

Im surprise that this thread hasnt gotten locked, yet.

[SaltyPepper2231]

Since when was the wall of flesh in don’t starve?

[Swiyss]

33 minutes ago, Wormboi said:

Im surprise that this thread hasnt gotten locked, yet.

Nobody said anything crazy or offensive, still.

[Intrepidpioneer]

16 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Ok so if not many people are making it to the endgame then how is "powercreep" not needed? 

I feel like DST veterans have been spoilt (for lack of a better word) by DST's insane and unreasonable difficulty, its some weird form of stockholm syndrome that because you have spent an unreasonable amount of time getting good at DST that you wrongly expect others to do the same.

Maybe these updates arnt for you guys? Maybe this should be a "i quit" post for all veterans with 10000+hrs.

Skilltrees are alot of fun and if they help new players reach the endgame within a reasonable amount of playtime then thats a massive win.

 

As someone with over 10,000 hours in this game, I for one welcome the new update skill trees and future skill trees to come. I just like my comfy lil game.

[00petar00]

18 hours ago, Milordo said:

You and the other people who upvote you missed the mark completely and want to stay in a horrible close minded "us vs them" mentality.

It is very disingenuous to say this because survival mechanics are literally survival players vs megabasers. Survival mechanics take time that we could use to do anything else. My favorite seasons are autumn and summer because I base in caves and I often end up playing these 2 seasons and there is a high likelihood that I'll quit when winter or spring starts which does make some players annoyed because when we play on the same server and they wake up to see the server season to be winter or spring most of them don't like it.

Its not like I can't do everything I want during winter or spring but that it takes more time and requires of me to take care of temperature/rain that I otherwise don't have to, it is a pure nuisance.

I can tell you that a lot of players I play with don't want more survival mechanics but chase the sandbox experience like I do.

18 hours ago, Milordo said:

First, Dst and Ds are not games with insane and unreasonable difficulty, as after you "complete" and "conquest" the first level (just the surface) and some part of the caves, the difficulty of the game already decreases a lot. This franchise difficulty is locked behind knowledge and since Klei doesn't warn you when you open the game "you should play and experience this game as blind as possible" as they always wanted, it depends on the person how much can be difficult, since wikis,guides,youtube videos, ecc... Then after knowledge we add the complete unbalance mess of Don't Starve since 2013, so YEAH. These last updates are factually and objectively making worse the situation, although I want to precise 2019-2022 was for the first time making the situation a little bit better and 2024 too, with this last ocean update.

Difficulty isn't the problem but it is simply something I don't want to put up with or do over and over again when I prefer being able to do what I want whenever I want. I don't think anyone with over 1000 hours of DST playtime would find seasonal dangers hard but a lot of us still avoid them if we can.

18 hours ago, Milordo said:

Third and final, skilltrees do not and will never (until they're not changed in their core) aid new players. What they do now is simply buffing already knowledged good-mid players and make better what already the character did better. Veterans or expert players don't need skilltrees to complete the game. New players will always die on darkness, on low food, on winter for freezing, on Deerclops, on the advanced hounds/deepth worms waves, on rains, ecc.... as skill trees don't give you anything to understand better the game.

Skill trees do help players but it would be better If everyone had access to skill points without any requirements. This would help new players more.

18 hours ago, Milordo said:

Look, it's clear Antynomity is very tired and dissatisfied with how the game is going and I assure you it's not alone, but it's not a """veteran spoil"""" thing or how ridicule you want to call it, as surprise suprise, a lot of my new players and people in general complained on similar things and more (and we didn't forget what happened in 2023 right?). I don't find myself 100% agree in all Antynomity points' but for sure I don't try to discredit all just like that. We can try to reach a comprimise and understand each other. I will not continue further because I know how it is here in this forum and it seems a futile battle, so I'm ready to be ignored and downvoted with Shopcat and Haha, lol. 

You have to realize that games are only going to get easier as computers become even more widely available across the world and more casual players start playing but even currently they are majority. DST has always been too hard for most of the players including me as it took me too many hours to learn how to kill every boss.

18 hours ago, grm9 said:

they can't make people better at the game through making the game easier

It is obvious that you are not making people better at the game when you decrease difficulty and you don't need to be better If game is rebalanced to be easier how is this hard to understand?

18 hours ago, grm9 said:

they don't need that many either

A lot of players need at least a thousand of hours played to get decent at DST.

18 hours ago, grm9 said:

so you want the game to become shorter for people to stop playing it earlier?

All of us have continued playing the game even though it became easier and there are so many different ways you can make the game more difficult it doesn't mean that just because the game is more difficult that it is good and difficulty can make the game worse depending on how it is implemented.

18 hours ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

the whole skilltree concept was bad from the getgo. Why are they doing reworks 2.0 when we endured 3 years of them already (2020 - 2023), We really needed content, not another character rework phase. By this time I would have liked more biomes, more islands, more interesting quests, more resources that majorly affected the early, middle, late game. Instead we got more skilltrees and rifts in a span of almost 2 years.

I definitely like some of the skilltree content additions but I feel they didn't need a "skilltree" to be added.

Completely agree, it sucks that we get more content that only character mains can access so it basically means that all of us get so much less content because we play only one or two characters.

Why aren't cave biomes getting reworked or more additions to cave rifts? More ocean content, mainland cotnent and so on. Instead we get skill trees that I only have access to for one character.

17 hours ago, HondorDrache said:

there is no need to make newbies look like disabled people, for whom it is extremely difficult to just go and look through all the tabs in the crafting menu.   
new players are not blind kittens

This is very rude, according to your logic I was probably "disabled" the first time I started playing and it took me a good 500-1000 hours to get decent at the game. DST is a massive game and it has so much depth that I don't think most players can just be good at it from the start.

16 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

A better question is do most people actually even attempt to make it to the end game? If the answer is no then powerceep wasn't the solution even more so when you consider it's that powercreep that makes people care less about the endgame or exploring why try to accomplish something when you can just pick a specific character for your unique and "rewarding" experience. Skill trees aren't helping new players reach the end game all it's doing is making their current gameplay loop a lot easier and the idea that it should is a flawed idea in concept because if that were the goal all characters should have been balanced around the push but as is often said "balance doesn't matter!" can't have it both ways.

This is a very flawed logic as game can always be made easier to allow more players to get to endgame. I wish klei would share stats as I would bet that more players are able to access endgame now compared to a few years ago especially because of character refreshes/skill trees.

I do think that skill trees aren't helping new players reach end game because it takes much more to get that far, DST isn't a game you can "complete" in 100 hours.

DST has always been too difficult so that is why we are getting character refreshes (big buffs) and skill trees (another series of big buffs) even though DST is a massive game most players can't get to the endgame for a reason.

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I know this would be very unpopular but I feel like better solution for skill trees in general would be to make them unlock as soon as you open the rifts. The skill points would still be saved but the trees themselves wouldn't activate until you open them.

Why not have them unlock from the get go so that skill trees are more helpful to new players if that was the issue?

13 hours ago, Antynomity said:

That's the thing, we shouldn't feel like abandoning the game. I was very struck when I went from absolutely loving this game, being able to play it for hours on end (when I had the time) and that was after 1500 hours sunk in already, to straight up hesitating to even launch it at times.

I think people who say that we should quit should also understand that if Klei, does keep changing the game drastically, then not only will the people that feel alienated now, would have already been alienated by then, those people who are saying this would also probably start feeling like the game's alienating them in the future.

I know how it feels to have a game that you once loved alienate it's original playerbase by (for that game's terms) awful updates, that only serve to keep milking the game further, and while the milking part absolutely does not fit DST, as skins are an additional part of updates which doesn't take much dev time compared to the updates themselves, I definitely feel like a ton of people are starting to become alienated from the game through updates;

The game development direction has shifted long ago, I don't know why you and specific people on the forums hold hope that klei will turn around and make the game more difficult when that would alienate so many players have started playing in the recent years. Players that hold your point of view have to either adapt, keep playing and you won't expect changes to make the game more difficult that won't happen which will make you unhappy or quit.

13 hours ago, Antynomity said:

Point is, DST is absolutely a game built to play for thousands of hours, or at least was, when it wasn't becoming easier and easier. It has randomised worlds, a ton of characters with different playstyles (characters are starting to become way more equal which I think is not the way to go, it makes the experiences of each character less unique from one another) and a ton of content, and ways to approach it. Which is why I dislike the 'hardmode' that Klei has been working on since last year, most content in all of Don't Starve / Together, can be done very early on if you're good enough and have the knowledge, excluding season-gated things, that makes runs a lot more unique and I don't understand why that isn't being added upon further, as it exponentially increases the replayability of the game, and a lot more than chracter refreshes/ skill trees could ever dream of doing.

That is your opinion, I have been playing DST much more as it has been getting easier and easier.

12 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Would you say the current skill trees are balanced for the early game? If you feel so then fine I guess but if not how do you handle content going forward for the early game? To you handle content with the understanding that the skill tree exist despite them being intended for the endgame or do you blatantly ignore the fact skills steamroll content? When I say content I more so mean major content by the way.

The issue I have with this is that a big part of skill trees is adding what is needed for specific characters to be decent or good, If skill trees were meant to be after rifts we wouldn't get so many perks that are only useful early game or specific perks that make characters much more enjoyable that players have been requesting for years to be added to their kit.

 

[arubaro]

15 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

is very disingenuous to say this because survival mechanics are literally survival players vs megabasers. Survival mechanics take time that we could use to do anything else. My favorite seasons are autumn and summer because I base in caves and I often end up playing these 2 seasons and there is a high likelihood that I'll quit when winter or spring starts which does make some players annoyed because when we play on the same server and they wake up to see the server season to be winter or spring most of them don't like it.

Its not like I can't do everything I want during winter or spring but that it takes more time and requires of me to take care of temperature/rain that I otherwise don't have to, it is a pure nuisance.

I can tell you that a lot of players I play with don't want more survival mechanics but chase the sandbox experience like I do

Well then talk for yourself and for the people you play with because i do megabase im really hungry for real survival content, not just easy to avoid weather effects or dumb destruction that doesnt affect the difficulty. And like me i know more megabasers that would love more survival content

This isnt stardew valley neither animal crossing

[grm9]

53 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

It is obvious that you are not making people better at the game when you decrease difficulty and you don't need to be better If game is rebalanced to be easier how is this hard to understand?

for that you'd need to remove all hard things and all ways to do anything remotely skillfully so that everyone'll stop playing after 1 short playthrough unless they're going to megabase

57 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

A lot of players need at least a thousand of hours played to get decent at DST

what's the definition of decent in this context?

57 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

All of us have continued playing the game even though it became easier

only because of interacting only with old stuff that didn't get changed yet, they mostly only made the game easier through skill trees that you can not use and only adding easy bosses after 2017 except CK that got practically removed now, i only didn't stop playing the game yet because of making own boss and character reworks at this point through mods, otherwise i probably would've because almost everything that they added since 2019 sucks and i usually don't interact with that unless i get nothing to do before day 21 for pieces

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

there are so many different ways you can make the game more difficult it doesn't mean that just because the game is more difficult that it is good and difficulty can make the game worse depending on how it is implemented

i'm not even sure about how's that related to what i said, i thought that it'd be pretty obvious that asking for hard things means asking for things that're hard and similar in comparison to other hard things that they made previously that were fun

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The game development direction has shifted long ago, I don't know why you and specific people on the forums hold hope that klei will turn around and make the game more difficult when that would alienate so many players have started playing in the recent years. Players that hold your point of view have to either adapt, keep playing and you won't expect changes to make the game more difficult that won't happen which will make you unhappy or quit.

That is your opinion, I have been playing DST much more as it has been getting easier and easier.

 

Yes, it has shifted a long time ago, but the updates pre-From Beyond/Maxwell Rework and post-Maxwell Rework/From Beyond is a huge difference, it wasn't a further shift it was a total 90 degree instantaneous change in direction, balancing philosophy and design philosophy both for a lot of world content and character updates.

I could bet quite a bit that if they just took their time with the further 'shift' it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

Also, I do not plan to 'quit'. I will keep saying what I think needs to be said for as long as I have the time and patience to do so. I paid for this game just like you, and to be told to suck it up or quit is disheartening.

That's the whole point of the forums, to provide feedback and insight to the developers of how different players play, and feel while playing the game.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

only because of interacting only with old stuff that didn't get changed yet, they mostly only made the game easier through skill trees that you can not use and only adding easy bosses after 2017 except CK that got practically removed now, i only didn't stop playing the game yet because of making own boss and character reworks at this point through mods, otherwise i probably would've because almost everything that they added since 2019 sucks and i usually don't interact with that unless i get nothing to do before day 21 for pieces

Have you made a mod to revert the crab king rework perhaps? I very much dislike the new one even though it fixed a few issues with the old fight... while bringing in a whole lot new ones.

9 hours ago, SaltyPepper2231 said:

Since when was the wall of flesh in don’t starve?

There's actually 2! Just not wall-ey and not flesh-ey.

[grm9]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The game development direction has shifted long ago, I don't know why you and specific people on the forums hold hope that klei will turn around and make the game more difficult when that would alienate so many players have started playing in the recent years. Players that hold your point of view have to either adapt, keep playing and you won't expect changes to make the game more difficult that won't happen which will make you unhappy or quit

no, they can just keep everything optional like how they did previously, they can add optional hard things e.g. bosses that for some reason people think're required to kill even though there's no goal in the game and optional easy things e.g. skill trees but at this point they only add easy stuff so yeah seems like anyone that liked the game a few years ago needs to stop playing it to halve amount of people playing it

17 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

Have you made a mod to revert the crab king rework perhaps? I very much dislike the new one even though it fixed a few issues with the old fight... while bringing in a whole lot new ones

i did and there's also a mod for that on workshop